the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on May 5, 2011 17:32:23 GMT -5
Great man. Great coach.
He took over that program when it was on its death bed and won a National title.
But, like most good things....they all come to an end.
You have to recruit, and Gary wasn't a recruiter. He didn't play the political game with recruiting. And on top of that he left the recruiting to his assistants which really turned off kids later in his career when the head coach was uninterested in the recruiting process.
Gary is a legend. Hall of fame. He went out on his own terms. But I think even Gary saw that it was over and time to hang it up.
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KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on May 5, 2011 17:32:48 GMT -5
I would not mind at all if we made a run at either of their recruits. While I don't think we were seriously in the running for either, I'd be kind of surprised if III didnt at least check in. Both are guards and solid prospects.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on May 5, 2011 17:38:53 GMT -5
Bob Wade! Bob Wade!
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 5, 2011 17:44:16 GMT -5
I know Maryland has a lot of things going for it. But I don't get the whole notion that Coaches are dying to go there or that it's a top 10 job.
It seems to me there aren't a lot of coaches eager to go to the ACC. Besides K and the two williams there are no good coaches in the ACC. No one seems to want to take on duke and unc. You're pretty much playing for 3rd in the ACC most years.
Yes maryland is in a great location for basketball talent, has a passionate fan base, good facilities. But I don't see the draw that would pull established coaches at major programs with just as much history/success as maryland out of their jobs. Why would Barnes leave Texas? Why would Donovan leave florida? He turned down kentucky and the orlando magic, but he can't say no to maryland? Why would Dixon leave Pitt or Wright leave Nova. These names seem crazy to me. Sure it's the best job that's come on the market this year better than Miami, NC State, and Missouri. But I can't see an established coach at a big time school leaving for Maryland.
Mike Brey I could definitely see though.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 5, 2011 17:55:33 GMT -5
Realistic list: Mike Brey ND, Buzz Williams Marquette, Frank Martin Kansas State, Mark Turgeon Texas AM, Anthony Grant alabama, Fran Dunphy Temple, Chris Mack Xavier, Chris Mooney Richmond Blaine Taylor ODU.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on May 5, 2011 17:56:55 GMT -5
People look at the on-campus arena and recruiting area for Maryland automatically think its a top job.
But you will always be...at best...the 3rd team in the ACC.
Also recruiting the top recruits from the area is not an automatic slam-dunk. A lot of kids from the area like to leave the area and are quick to leave.
Also, Maryland fans will eat you alive for not being on Duke and UNC's level every year. Before Gary won a National title, they would always complain about why aren't they on Duke and UNC's level, not landing the top recruits like UNC and Duke.
What Maryland should do is go after a young assistant/young up-and-coming coach with strong recruiting ties.
An established coach won't come here. It would be a lateral move at best. Except for Brey, which would be a step-up from the Notre Dame job. The cupboard is completely bare at Maryland. They have nothing to compete with talent-wise, and two of their top recruits are now changing their minds.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 5, 2011 18:12:50 GMT -5
I remember seeing an inflammatory piece earlier in the spring that suggested that Steve Wojiechiewski would be ideal for the job, at least until he takes over for Coach K. I'm happy to fan the flames of that rumor :-D
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on May 5, 2011 19:03:34 GMT -5
taubs reume has already been faxed into Anderson
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Post by oakhead on May 5, 2011 19:43:05 GMT -5
Mike Lonergan of Vermont will be hired. Timing of resigntion is to keep him from signing with GW.
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KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on May 5, 2011 19:46:45 GMT -5
Too late I think. Looks like Lonergan to GW is a done deal.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on May 5, 2011 20:02:37 GMT -5
Chuck Dreisell. Nice symmetry there.
I always thought Gary was a really good coach prior to his taking the UMCP job. I don't know that I can bring myself to like anyone who is basketball coach at UMCP. Now that he is no longer UMCP's coach, I wish him a happy retirement.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on May 5, 2011 20:05:19 GMT -5
He was an extremely good coach, but an extremely terrible recruiter. The latter was really helpful. Take a look at a kid like Hopkins. I got the sense that we kind of cooled on him at some point during the recruitment, and switched to other targets, but when we missed out, we came back to him. If Maryland is good, we don't have the luxury of taking it slow with good local talent.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 5, 2011 20:33:27 GMT -5
Great man. Great coach. He took over that program when it was on its death bed and won a National title. But, like most good things....they all come to an end. You have to recruit, and Gary wasn't a recruiter. He didn't play the political game with recruiting. And on top of that he left the recruiting to his assistants which really turned off kids later in his career when the head coach was uninterested in the recruiting process. Gary is a legend. Hall of fame. He went out on his own terms. But I think even Gary saw that it was over and time to hang it up. Great coach, sure. But a great man? Are you close friends with the guy? Seems like a dick to me.
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deacon
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Post by deacon on May 5, 2011 20:38:04 GMT -5
People look at the on-campus arena and recruiting area for Maryland automatically think its a top job. But you will always be...at best...the 3rd team in the ACC. Also recruiting the top recruits from the area is not an automatic slam-dunk. A lot of kids from the area like to leave the area and are quick to leave. Also, Maryland fans will eat you alive for not being on Duke and UNC's level every year. Before Gary won a National title, they would always complain about why aren't they on Duke and UNC's level, not landing the top recruits like UNC and Duke. What Maryland should do is go after a young assistant/young up-and-coming coach with strong recruiting ties. An established coach won't come here. It would be a lateral move at best. Except for Brey, which would be a step-up from the Notre Dame job. The cupboard is completely bare at Maryland. They have nothing to compete with talent-wise, and two of their top recruits are now changing their minds. Of course, the fact that Maryland has a solid reputation academically, is smack dab in the middle of one of the deepest pools of talent in the nation, is in the largest media market in the ACC and has a top-notch on-campus arena make it attractive, but Gary proved that you don't always have to play second fiddle to Duke or Carolina if you grind. In the minds of basketball fans and media types, Duke and Carolina will always be at the forefront of people's minds when it comes to the ACC, but Gary's success at Maryland was no accident. You could never tell him that Maryland played second fiddle to anyone and that attitude permeated throughout the program. He grinded and it resulted in a national title. He proved no program has to play second fiddle to Duke and Carolina and that's the one part of his legacy that I'll always admire. If there is any program in the ACC that can compete with the big boys, it's Maryland and while the timing might be bad, I think they'll get someone in there that sees all the positives and will accept the challenge.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 5, 2011 20:41:36 GMT -5
Who will now inherit the title of Sweatiest D-1 coach?? Buzz Williams, by a mile.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 5, 2011 20:45:32 GMT -5
People look at the on-campus arena and recruiting area for Maryland automatically think its a top job. But you will always be...at best...the 3rd team in the ACC. Always? There was a time in the 1970's where Maryland was arguably the 2nd best team in the ACC behind North Carolina, with Lefty's teams neck and neck with Norm Sloan at NC State. Duke wasn't a consistent contender under Bucky Waters and the early Bill Foster years, Wake less so under Carl Tacy, and Virginia and Clemson brought up the back of a very strong seven team conference after South Carolina left. (Imagine a 7 team conference today.) The post-K world for Duke will be a major transition, and it hopes not to fade into the woodwork as State did post-Valvano. Since the next major ACC program likely won't come from Miami, BC, or VTech, who's to say it couldn't be a Maryland, GTech, or even State?
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on May 5, 2011 21:15:21 GMT -5
I think there's a few things you have to look at. First I think you have to look at the jobs in a vacuum, factoring out what the previous coach did and looking at the fundamentals of the job. Facilities, fan base/alumni base, athletics budget, location, recruiting base, conference situation, longterm prospects etc.... But then from there, you have to determine just how big the gap is. If there is a sizeable gap you'd move, but if there's a small gap, and you're happy where you are, the safe play is to stay. A number of coaches have done this in recent years and high profile coaching searches.
For instance if I look at Pitt vs. Maryland in a vacuum, I'm definitely taking Maryland. However, is there enough reason to ditch Pitt for College Park? I'd guess probably not, but I'm not 100% sure.
I don't think a guy like Donovan is realistic. Florida has a top 3 athletics budget, great facilities, huge fanbase, solid amount of in-state talent, and he won 2 titles which buys him a ton of goodwill. I can't see him leaving. Guys like Self and Matta, similar. Barnes is a tiny bit less certain just because some folks at UT seem to be souring on him, and if he's starting to get the vibe that his seat is getting warm, he may look for an out. But overall, as good as Maryland's measurables are, they are not as good as Texas', which are arguably best in America.
I think Miller is the first guy who wouldn't shock me, just because he is an east coast guy. I don't know much about Zona's facilities or fans, but my instinct is that they're probably on the same tier as Maryland. Usually if its close the default is to stay, but who knows if he'd rather be back east. Possible, would probably lean toward thinking he stays, but it's not inconceivable. I'd put Dixon in the same boat. I think Maryland's measureables are probably a tiny bit better, but good enough to jump? Is he getting sick of listening to Pitt fans bitch about early exits? Again I'd lean toward him staying but it's in the realm of possibility IMO.
The biggest wildcard/hardest to read is Brad Stevens. If this guy just wanted to ditch Butler for the big leagues as you might expect, he had plenty of opportunities to do that last year and this year. Yet, he turned them down. Either he's just picking his spot and waiting for a GREAT job to open (rather than a "good" job like a Mizzou, Oklahoma, Tennessee etc), or he is honest-to-god just happy being the blue whale in a small pond at Butler. I'll assume it is the former, in which case, who or what is he waiting for and is UMCP a good enough look to make the leap? I've heard some say that as young as he is, he is just waiting for Coach K to hang em up before moving to Durham. Another possibility is that he's waiting for the Hoosier-faithful to realize that Crean isn't a great coach and taking that gig. But if he's not waiting for a particular school, and instead just waiting for a school that has great potential, it'll be interesting to see if Maryland fits the bill. I hope not.
Jay Wright is also interesting to me. How worried is he REALLY about the future of Nova hoops and the notion that they may be left out in the cold if they don't move up to IA football? You hear a lot of message board chatter about all that, but how realistic is it? Maryland has much nicer facilities than Nova, much bigger fan base/alumni base, and of course, they have IA football and play in a much more stable and inert conference. Is this enough to make him think about going? Allegedly he turned down NC State (the time they got Sidney Lowe) and UK (the time they got Gillespie), so he's stuck with Villanova in the past. A few years have gone by and he made a final 4. There was a round of conference expansion and the BE survived. With all of this IA football talk at Nova, how worried is he about their future? This will also be interesting to follow.
As I said before, I don't like the idea of Grant or Smart at UMCP. Both of those guys have too much street cred and I think kids in the area would be lining up to play for them. Georgetown's street cred is down at this point, with our style of play perceived as slow, boring, not showcasing individual talent or athleticism etc. Not trying to debate this in this thread, but see the Trawick interview if you don't believe me. Grant or Smart at an ACC school would have way more street cred IMO. Which is funny, because like 5-6 years ago when III started to have a little success with Jeff and the gang, everybody started to dust off the starter jackets. And compared to old, sweaty, golf course and chicken wings Gary Williams, Georgetown had all the street cred in the world. Now after a few early exits and a few too many slow-footed "let the game come to me" players, we're in a bad street cred recession, and if Maryland hires somebody like Grant or even Smart, the roles will have totally reversed. This would not be good news.
I'd much rather them see get a stodgy old white dude who can coach and knows X's and O's but who is not a stud recruiter. Basically, somebody else in the Gary mold. That's why Brey would be good--decent recruiter and he'd get better in this area, but he's not a guy who is going to overwhelm DC/MD/VA kids with his charm and ability to relate to them. Realistically, I think he's their floor because I can't see him turning them down. And while I'd breathe a sigh of relief if they hired him, he'd still be tougher competition than recent years Williams, IMO. The only question is can they do better, and if so, how much better?
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deacon
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Post by deacon on May 5, 2011 21:26:10 GMT -5
I think there's a few things you have to look at. First I think you have to look at the jobs in a vacuum, factoring out what the previous coach did and looking at the fundamentals of the job. Facilities, fan base/alumni base, athletics budget, location, recruiting base, conference situation, longterm prospects etc.... But then from there, you have to determine just how big the gap is. If there is a sizeable gap you'd move, but if there's a small gap, and you're happy where you are, the safe play is to stay. A number of coaches have done this in recent years and high profile coaching searches. For instance if I look at Pitt vs. Maryland in a vacuum, I'm definitely taking Maryland. However, is there enough reason to ditch Pitt for College Park? I'd guess probably not, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't think a guy like Donovan is realistic. Florida has a top 3 athletics budget, great facilities, huge fanbase, solid amount of in-state talent, and he won 2 titles which buys him a ton of goodwill. I can't see him leaving. Guys like Self and Matta, similar. Barnes is a tiny bit less certain just because some folks at UT seem to be souring on him, and if he's starting to get the vibe that his seat is getting warm, he may look for an out. But overall, as good as Maryland's measurables are, they are not as good as Texas', which are arguably best in America. I think Miller is the first guy who wouldn't shock me, just because he is an east coast guy. I don't know much about Zona's facilities or fans, but my instinct is that they're probably on the same tier as Maryland. Usually if its close the default is to stay, but who knows if he'd rather be back east. Possible, would probably lean toward thinking he stays, but it's not inconceivable. I'd put Dixon in the same boat. I think Maryland's measureables are probably a tiny bit better, but good enough to jump? Is he getting sick of listening to Pitt fans bitch about early exits? Again I'd lean toward him staying but it's in the realm of possibility IMO. The biggest wildcard/hardest to read is Brad Stevens. If this guy just wanted to ditch Butler for the big leagues as you might expect, he had plenty of opportunities to do that last year and this year. Yet, he turned them down. Either he's just picking his spot and waiting for a GREAT job to open (rather than a "good" job like a Mizzou, Oklahoma, Tennessee etc), or he is honest-to-god just happy being the blue whale in a small pond at Butler. I'll assume it is the former, in which case, who or what is he waiting for and is UMCP a good enough look to make the leap? I've heard some say that as young as he is, he is just waiting for Coach K to hang em up before moving to Durham. Another possibility is that he's waiting for the Hoosier-faithful to realize that Crean isn't a great coach and taking that gig. But if he's not waiting for a particular school, and instead just waiting for a school that has great potential, it'll be interesting to see if Maryland fits the bill. I hope not. Jay Wright is also interesting to me. How worried is he REALLY about the future of Nova hoops and the notion that they may be left out in the cold if they don't move up to IA football? You hear a lot of message board chatter about all that, but how realistic is it? Maryland has much nicer facilities than Nova, much bigger fan base/alumni base, and of course, they have IA football and play in a much more stable and inert conference. Is this enough to make him think about going? Allegedly he turned down NC State (the time they got Sidney Lowe) and UK (the time they got Gillespie), so he's stuck with Villanova in the past. A few years have gone by and he made a final 4. There was a round of conference expansion and the BE survived. With all of this IA football talk at Nova, how worried is he about their future? This will also be interesting to follow. As I said before, I don't like the idea of Grant or Smart at UMCP. Both of those guys have too much street cred and I think kids in the area would be lining up to play for them. Georgetown's street cred is down at this point, with our style of play perceived as slow, boring, not showcasing individual talent or athleticism etc. Not trying to debate this in this thread, but see the Trawick interview if you don't believe me. Grant or Smart at an ACC school would have way more street cred IMO. Which is funny, because like 5-6 years ago when III started to have a little success with Jeff and the gang, everybody started to dust off the starter jackets. And compared to old, sweaty, golf course and chicken wings Gary Williams, Georgetown had all the street cred in the world. Now after a few early exits and a few too many slow-footed "let the game come to me" players, we're in a bad street cred recession, and if Maryland hires somebody like Grant or even Smart, the roles will have totally reversed. This would not be good news. I'd much rather them see get a stodgy old white dude who can coach and knows X's and O's but who is not a stud recruiter. Basically, somebody else in the Gary mold. That's why Brey would be good--decent recruiter and he'd get better in this area, but he's not a guy who is going to overwhelm DC/MD/VA kids with his charm and ability to relate to them. Realistically, I think he's their floor because I can't see him turning them down. And while I'd breathe a sigh of relief if they hired him, he'd still be tougher competition than recent years Williams, IMO. The only question is can they do better, and if so, how much better? Great post, and I agree 100 percent with almost every major point. Some people here may not want to admit it, but MD is one good hire away from being thrust back into the forefront of schools locally. If they get someone like Stevens or Miller, they're back in the game and I can see someone like Miller or Stevens taking that job. The only problem with both might be the buyouts in their contracts, but if it isn't, it wouldn't shock me one bit to see it happen. Same goes for Grant and Smart. Debbie Yow accused Gary of interfering with the coaching search at NCSU. Maybe Gary told Smart not to take the NCSU job because a better one will be opening up. Again, buyouts might be a problem, but again, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if either of them ended up with the job. Apparently, they've already contacted Brey, but apparently, Notre Dame is already trying to lock him up longterm. We'll see what happens, but unless Anderson botches this, they'll get someone that has been mentioned in this thread.
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KirbyKeger
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Post by KirbyKeger on May 5, 2011 21:31:34 GMT -5
I don't see Stevens leaving Butler. I get the feeling that the guy is a very rare breed. I could probably see Smart. I don't think any of the aforementioned Big East coaches are going anywhere. I don't really see the Maryland job being better than Arizona, so I think Millers out. My gut feeling is theyre not going to be able to lure any big-name coaches away from their current programs. Maryland's roster is AWFUL! These big time coaches that have been mentioned have already built their rosters at schools that they really have no reason to leave.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 5, 2011 21:47:41 GMT -5
A couple of points on this -
1. Even with the recent UMCP spiral, there is a lot of downside for an accomplished coach to take this job. The true believers will always compare the new guy to the old one, much as Esherick had a tall order, even while GU had seen some basketball problems before he took over.
2. UMCP is probably a "good job," but I am not sure what says it is any better or worse than a Pitt job, an ND job, etc., beyond what may lurk beneath the surface with AD politics. If I am a Jamie Dixon or Mike Brey, I give Beilein a call and ask how it is working out for him - transitioning from one gig to what was frankly an equivalent gig at the time (sorry UMICH fans).
3. As to UMCP within the ACC, the question is one of risk - do you bank on Duke sucking in another 5 years or 10? I don't - ESPN will not let it happen, and the NCAA won't either. Many a coach has entered the ACC with the same delusions. Skip Prosser (RIP) set the goal of out-recruiting Duke for a single player during his time at Wake. In however many years he was there, it did not happen once, and he was a damned good coach who experienced success in league play. Now ask yourself whether you can do it against Duke and a resurgent UNC, which was basically down when Prosser was at Wake. Then ask whether you can do it year in and year out. If you think you can do it, time to wake up IMO.
My $.02.
On Edit: There is some overlap with RB's post in mine. Further to the Barnes idea, it would not upset the UT basketball faithful of about 15 people. Still, I suspect his buyout is hefty, and he'd command mucho dinero since he's getting well above market (and his value) at UT. It would not be good for GU, though, because he can recruit well and can identify talent. What happens when it hits campus in the fall is another story entirely. It is hard to figure out how to create a game coach who is worse pound for pound than Rick Barnes. I could see Barnes making the move if UMCP went in that direction if Barnes wants to be in the spotlight and the focal point in an athletics program generally. At UT, he'll always be in the football coach's shadow.
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