hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Mar 15, 2011 12:53:46 GMT -5
There must be something going around -- or in the air maybe -- because I basically agree with RDF. But I'm not going to jump to the conclusion to lump all the blame on the Fab 5 themselves. They were a flambouyant group for sure, but that, in and of itself, shouldn't tarnish them as basketball players or as individuals. As for the "socio-cultural" impact, I think the problem is acting as if the Fab 5 were the writer-director-publisher for the act. Instead of saluting them as the architects of such a movement, I think they are better illustrated as simple examples of the shift. As others point out, there were other teams and individuals noted for such variations from the norm as long, baggy shorts and black socks. However, I do think that there was a "need" among certain cultural groups to have identifiable icons in sports, as well as everything else, such as acting and music. And clearly, the Fab 5 fit with such a need. I think the comment that Ice Cube made about kids Nationally identifying with the Fab 5 and saying "that is who we are," is aprepos. Whether you think that is good or bad is irrelevant, but I do think that such emotional attachment definitely fueled the interest in Michigan basketball, at least for a while.
On another note, I have heard several people talking about a sports documentary that HBO has running right now. I haven't seen it, but supposedly, it covers a similar topic but focuses specifically on the UNLV teams from a similar time period. I have hear Greg Anthony interviewed and the show certainly sounds interesting.
Has anyone seen that show and if so, how do you compare it to the Fab 5?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 15, 2011 13:37:10 GMT -5
UNLV show was good--HBO Sports does a nice job-but it was too short and didn't dive deep enough into the filth that was Tarkanian--and especially if you want to tell the entire story of Vegas--it has to center around Tark--where he got Long Beach State into NCAA trouble--then Vegas, and then Fresno State where it just got completely out of hand. They show the check NCAA gave Tarkanian to settle out of court---they paid him 2.8 million--but they don't mention how trouble seemed to follow him at his last stop--which is relevant if you are going to let him defend himself/his program.
They had good comments-that have been heard everywhere-from Bill Martin's "We're not Thugs....." to Fab Five talking "Thugs" to Greg Anthony/Stacey Augmon "We're not thugs".......
Racially the overtones were there with Miami FB, Georgetown and UNLV basketball--but Tarkanian was bringing in guys who often were in legal trouble and saw himself as a "Father Flanagan" type. Albeit these guys had to be great talents who went wayward.
One interesting thing--they have a quote from NCAA "enforcer" David Berst that called Tark a "rug merchant" and that's blatant racism since Tark is Armenian. Berst being guy who put SMU on Death Penalty too--and the battle between UNLV president Maxson and Tark's program which Maxson basically helped NCAA run Tark out of town. So there was something to the paranoia that Tark felt-but they only touched briefly on the tie-in which was significantly proven to be substantial with Ricard "the Fixer" Perry and UNLV players--infamous Hot Tub pic and they blew past this like it meant nothing--the "they" meaning Tark/Anthony etc...and that is a joke. Perry helped recruit/bail Lloyd Daniels out of jail and was friend of program oftens seated in "Gucci row" at Thomas and Mack Center.
So much more could've been done--but to get it on the air and with so much cooperation of Tarkanian/Ex players-probably had to be limited in what they could discuss.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 15, 2011 16:12:17 GMT -5
I don't think of the Fab 5 as racial trailblazers. That path had already been cleared by many players, coaches, and universities, including of course JT Jr. and Georgetown, but it goes way back. I guarantee that none of these guys had to put up with anything close to what Wilt Chamberlain had to deal with. I think the real watershed year in college basketball was 1966-67, when Lew Alcindor and Elvin Hayes were such dominant players and the AP All-American team went from having one or two black players (Cazzie Russell, Dave Bing) to Alcindor, Hayes, Wes Unseld, Clem Haskins, and Jimmy Walker (Jalen Rose's father). Several programs don't get enough credit for their roles in the 60s and 70s, especially Houston, Louisville, Western Kentucky, and Marquette under Al McGuire. Adolph Rupp was a hard-headed SOB long after the Texas Western loss, but he kept getting the same lesson every year from a different team: www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19690313Marquette.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19700314Jacksonville.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19710318WesternKentucky.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19720318FloridaState.html
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 15, 2011 16:28:32 GMT -5
I don't think of the Fab 5 as racial trailblazers. That path had already been cleared by many players, coaches, and universities, including of course JT Jr. and Georgetown, but it goes way back. I guarantee that none of these guys had to put up with anything close to what Wilt Chamberlain had to deal with. I think the real watershed year in college basketball was 1966-67, when Lew Alcindor and Elvin Hayes were such dominant players and the AP All-American team went from having one or two black players (Cazzie Russell, Dave Bing) to Alcindor, Hayes, Wes Unseld, Clem Haskins, and Jimmy Walker (Jalen Rose's father). Several programs don't get enough credit for their roles in the 60s and 70s, especially Houston, Louisville, Western Kentucky, and Marquette under Al McGuire. Adolph Rupp was a hard-headed SOB long after the Texas Western loss, but he kept getting the same lesson every year from a different team: www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19690313Marquette.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19700314Jacksonville.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19710318WesternKentucky.htmlwww.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Games/19720318FloridaState.htmlRupp's first black recruit signed after the 1968-69 season. He went pro after the 1970-71 season via the hardship draft. So he was being recruited through the Marquette game, was ineligible to play as a freshman against Jacksonville and had 15-10 against Western Kentucky.
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Post by NoCleverName on Mar 15, 2011 16:58:59 GMT -5
Jason Whitlock's take with a Hoya connection tinyurl.com/4tfjod4"The Fab Five are taking credit for the real accomplishments of John Thompson’s and Patrick Ewing’s Georgetown Hoyas. It was Thompson’s all-black, Ewing-led teams a decade before the Fab Five that shook the foundation of college basketball, changed the complexion of starting lineups across the country, opened coaching doors that had previously been closed to blacks and paved the way for black sportswriters at major newspapers. It’s easy to forgive Rose for his lack of self-awareness. It’s America. In this country, self-awareness and common sense are our most rare commodities. What’s not easy to excuse is the clueless robbery of what Thompson, Ewing, Bill Martin, Reggie Williams, Horace Broadnax and David Wingate accomplished. They won championships — conference and national. They scared and intimidated the establishment. They were the inner-city black kids who left a legacy of jobs and playing opportunities for other impoverished minorities that exposes the lack of substance in the fads popularized by the Fab Five. “Hoya Paranoia” is the story that deserves celebration and should serve as a teaching tool. Fab Five is a safe, harmless story celebrating black kids for choosing style over substance."
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 16, 2011 0:07:41 GMT -5
[quote author=tbird41 board=pro thread=23916 post=430840 time=1300224512[/quote]
Rupp's first black recruit signed after the 1968-69 season. He went pro after the 1970-71 season via the hardship draft. So he was being recruited through the Marquette game, was ineligible to play as a freshman against Jacksonville and had 15-10 against Western Kentucky.[/quote]
Yes, Rupp recruited Tom Payne, who was going to be the next Lew Alcindor, and Payne had academic and other problems that limited him to only one season. Louisville, WKU, Houston, Jacksonville, Florida State, and other non-SEC and non-ACC teams in the South were winning with teams with several black players, not just one black superstar. Maybe it wasn't Rupp's fault that he did not have more black players. The SEC was not the most welcoming place and black players had other options.
Bear Bryant and other old school Southern coaches appear to have gone after a few black stars but not black squad fillers. Heck, if you look at major league baseball rosters back then, most of the stars were black players, but not very many average or marginal major leaguers were black.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Mar 16, 2011 6:36:32 GMT -5
i thought it was funny how rose kept saying they were better than the unc team. weren't they losing the entire game??? that was a very good unc team full of pros.
that said, i loved the duke hate.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 16, 2011 7:19:43 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 16, 2011 9:42:41 GMT -5
You got edited. Better be more careful.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Mar 16, 2011 10:03:45 GMT -5
Just seems odd to me that a person can be allowed to make a documentary about themselves. Seems too biased. Just seems weird to be given a forum to make a movie about how awesome and culturally significant you are.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 16, 2011 10:33:27 GMT -5
You got edited. Better be more careful. Ha! The link still works though.
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