hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on May 9, 2011 16:04:47 GMT -5
Bringing an old building up to code is often very expensive. Doing so in a facility with environmental concerns is even more costly.
You also have to consider the size of the space (in three dimensions) and consider whether it meets the intangible needs and desires of students. Will the rooms be too small? Will the lack of private bathrooms be undesirable? What will it cost to retrofit with desired technological connections and infrastructure?
The old Jes Res is, in short, not really a feasible solution unless it can be packaged as "premier housing" - similar to the housing on the Lawn at UVA, where students are willing to forego basic necessities for the "right" to live at the heart of campus in a select community. The status would have to outweigh many of the modern amenities that students otherwise take for granted.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 9, 2011 18:06:48 GMT -5
Why not? There are tons and tons of inane regulations at every level of government--if DC can tell restaurants/bars they can't let people inside that are smoking, why can't DC tell Georgetown it can't admit students who don't live on campus? Apples to oranges, no, T? Smoking and second-hand smoke are pretty obviously public health issues, which the government should and does have the power to regulate. Smokers are not a protected class, nor is the act of smoking protected. Although the government can do a lot with respect to zoning and property rights (e.g. eminent domain), there is no basis on which it can force a private entity to admit or not admit individuals on a particular criterion. The report is stupid but it's not THAT stupid - it knows this full well and seeks instead to force the university to provide space for 100% of students. It understands that the government doesn't have the legal right to force them to live there. First, I don't think students are a protected class like, say African Americans. Secondly, why couldn't they have different regulations in different parts of the city? They do it for other types of businesses--why not universities? Students are a protected class under the DC Human Rights Act of 1977, which enumerates "matriculation status" as a protected category. As to the second part, they would have to provide a basis for different regulations in different areas. Different zoning classifications, different desired densities, etc. However, the entire basis of OPs report in this area boils down to "students are bad for neighborhoods." Given the language OP uses, it would be pretty hard to argue that this applies in Georgetown and Burleith but not in American University Park or Wesley Heights or Foggy Bottom or anywhere else. Doubly so because GU houses more undergrads on campus than any other school in DC other than Gallaudet. Some major due process and other challenges open there. The biggest issue, to me, is the fact that OP is proposing to reopen and alter a previously settled issue. The current undergraduate enrollment numbers and amount of providing housing were accepted under the 2000 Campus Plan. It's not the purpose of the Zoning Commission or the campus plan system to go back and say "oh wait, you know what, actually we don't like living next to students after all." The purpose of campus plans is to manage growth, not to reexamine and alter any land use decisions ever made by a university. So I didn't know the details and I never get around to clicking on links. But, still seems to me that the zoning commission can adopt this report and make the University supply housing for everyone, correct? At which point the University would probably have to require students to live on campus to help pay for the housing (we all know Gtown really couldn't afford empty rooms). So, what, exactly can Gtown do if the Zoning Commission goes through with this, aside from sue and hope that this zoning is a civil rights violation? And how does that get us a practice facility?
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Post by jkhoya12 on May 9, 2011 19:10:32 GMT -5
Apples to oranges, no, T? Smoking and second-hand smoke are pretty obviously public health issues, which the government should and does have the power to regulate. Smokers are not a protected class, nor is the act of smoking protected. Although the government can do a lot with respect to zoning and property rights (e.g. eminent domain), there is no basis on which it can force a private entity to admit or not admit individuals on a particular criterion. The report is stupid but it's not THAT stupid - it knows this full well and seeks instead to force the university to provide space for 100% of students. It understands that the government doesn't have the legal right to force them to live there. Students are a protected class under the DC Human Rights Act of 1977, which enumerates "matriculation status" as a protected category. As to the second part, they would have to provide a basis for different regulations in different areas. Different zoning classifications, different desired densities, etc. However, the entire basis of OPs report in this area boils down to "students are bad for neighborhoods." Given the language OP uses, it would be pretty hard to argue that this applies in Georgetown and Burleith but not in American University Park or Wesley Heights or Foggy Bottom or anywhere else. Doubly so because GU houses more undergrads on campus than any other school in DC other than Gallaudet. Some major due process and other challenges open there. The biggest issue, to me, is the fact that OP is proposing to reopen and alter a previously settled issue. The current undergraduate enrollment numbers and amount of providing housing were accepted under the 2000 Campus Plan. It's not the purpose of the Zoning Commission or the campus plan system to go back and say "oh wait, you know what, actually we don't like living next to students after all." The purpose of campus plans is to manage growth, not to reexamine and alter any land use decisions ever made by a university. So I didn't know the details and I never get around to clicking on links. But, still seems to me that the zoning commission can adopt this report and make the University supply housing for everyone, correct? At which point the University would probably have to require students to live on campus to help pay for the housing (we all know Gtown really couldn't afford empty rooms). So, what, exactly can Gtown do if the Zoning Commission goes through with this, aside from sue and hope that this zoning is a civil rights violation? And how does that get us a practice facility? A) The Practice Facility(which I care more than most people about) is not the key issue here, student welfare is vastly more important. B) The Practice Facility was already approved, even by the Old Georgetown Board, which means it does not need approval in this campus plan.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on May 10, 2011 7:14:54 GMT -5
So I didn't know the details and I never get around to clicking on links. But, still seems to me that the zoning commission can adopt this report and make the University supply housing for everyone, correct? At which point the University would probably have to require students to live on campus to help pay for the housing (we all know Gtown really couldn't afford empty rooms). So, what, exactly can Gtown do if the Zoning Commission goes through with this, aside from sue and hope that this zoning is a civil rights violation? And how does that get us a practice facility? A) The Practice Facility(which I care more than most people about) is not the key issue here, student welfare is vastly more important. B) The Practice Facility was already approved, even by the Old Georgetown Board, which means it does not need approval in this campus plan. Wrong. The Campus Plan directly impacts the ability to construct the ATF in two ways. First, if the University is suddenly subject to a requirement to build on-campus housing in large numbers in a short period of time, it will put all other projects on hold because of financing/funding and other resource allocation reasons. Second, if the University has to building 1500 beds, they need to use every potential available undeveloped space to do it. There are few left, and the site for the ATF would be casualty #1.
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Post by jkhoya12 on May 10, 2011 18:59:35 GMT -5
A) The Practice Facility(which I care more than most people about) is not the key issue here, student welfare is vastly more important. B) The Practice Facility was already approved, even by the Old Georgetown Board, which means it does not need approval in this campus plan. Wrong. The Campus Plan directly impacts the ability to construct the ATF in two ways. First, if the University is suddenly subject to a requirement to build on-campus housing in large numbers in a short period of time, it will put all other projects on hold because of financing/funding and other resource allocation reasons. Second, if the University has to building 1500 beds, they need to use every potential available undeveloped space to do it. There are few left, and the site for the ATF would be casualty #1. Did I say anything about it impacting the ATF? No. I said it is not up for approval, which it isn't.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 11, 2011 7:39:21 GMT -5
Wrong. The Campus Plan directly impacts the ability to construct the ATF in two ways. First, if the University is suddenly subject to a requirement to build on-campus housing in large numbers in a short period of time, it will put all other projects on hold because of financing/funding and other resource allocation reasons. Second, if the University has to building 1500 beds, they need to use every potential available undeveloped space to do it. There are few left, and the site for the ATF would be casualty #1. Did I say anything about it impacting the ATF? No. I said it is not up for approval, which it isn't. If you read tables' point instead of just taking offense, you would see that this OP proposal if adopted and enforced by the Zoning Commission is potentially a backdoor to un-approving the ATF -- and any other previously "approved" projects due to non-compliance with the neighbors' latest demands. Just as important, the money the university is forced to spend on legal fees in order to appeal this ruling after the fact, like global interfaith dialogue and other magic beans, is money that can't be spent on upgrading the athletic facilities.
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Post by jkhoya12 on May 11, 2011 10:20:17 GMT -5
Did I say anything about it impacting the ATF? No. I said it is not up for approval, which it isn't. If you read tables' point instead of just taking offense, you would see that this OP proposal if adopted and enforced by the Zoning Commission is potentially a backdoor to un-approving the ATF -- and any other previously "approved" projects due to non-compliance with the neighbors' latest demands. Just as important, the money the university is forced to spend on legal fees in order to appeal this ruling after the fact, like global interfaith dialogue and other magic beans, is money that can't be spent on upgrading the athletic facilities. I fully realize that and that's why I did take offense to it. As far as I know, there is no un-approval process, but the rulings on this campus plan can affect the ATF as tables said, indirectly.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on May 13, 2011 14:47:54 GMT -5
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 13, 2011 15:27:58 GMT -5
Sounds to me like DDOT should be the ones being proactive and making sure there's public transportation to the largest employer of the state. Isn't it their job to find out where public transport is needed and provide it?
And isn't the last point what Georgetown plans to do already. I thought the Beautification of Library walk and the making of it to be more friendly to pedestrians was part of the campus plan? Or did that get left out? Besides the fact that people walk in the street most of the time anyway.
I was following the Campus Plan Meeting last night online. I thought out lawyer did a great job making the Office of Planning look really bad. Hopefully the zoning commission thinks so too. I thought the 9 students who testified including Monica McNutt from the women's team all did a really good job.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on May 13, 2011 16:53:46 GMT -5
I thought our lawyers did a pretty good job as well .
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on May 14, 2011 14:52:30 GMT -5
Sounds to me like DDOT should be the ones being proactive and making sure there's public transportation to the largest employer of the state. Isn't it their job to find out where public transport is needed and provide it? Yeah, you would think being the biggest employer would give Georgetown some sway in this. If there was only a system of mass transportation that could have been put in Georgetown years ago that is designed to move hundreds of thousands people a day to and from work? Oh I forgot that would bring the poors and the blacks in to the neighborhood, that just wont do Yeah it would be counter productive to make it pedestrian only. The only time people actually drive on Library walk is for good reason. Like moving out students or making deliveries to the buildings there. There are only about 10 cars that park there every day and they are the President and his staff. Why Ken Archer thinks a dead end access road is promoting people driving to work is beyond me. Couldnt this process be made easier if the DDOT and the OP were involved in the planning process earlier on instead of just waiting until the end and complaining about it. I would say the same thing about the neighbors but i dont wont those wackos involved any more than they already are.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 14, 2011 15:32:07 GMT -5
Honestly if the Neighbors are serious about reducing traffic on their streets the only real sollution is a Georgetown Metro Stop. Guess what no more Guts Buses if there's a metro stop and a lot fewer people parking on the street. Of course they'll block the building of a metro stop or at least make building it impossible by stating that the Construction can only take place between 10am and 2pm and only if they don't make any noise while doing so.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 14, 2011 16:14:31 GMT -5
Yeah, you would think being the biggest employer would give Georgetown some sway in this. If there was only a system of mass transportation that could have been put in Georgetown years ago that is designed to move hundreds of thousands people a day to and from work? Oh I forgot that would bring the poors and the blacks in to the neighborhood, that just wont do For the record, this is actually an urban legend, as explained here. At the same time, I have to agree with David Alpert when he says: Ultimately, it's clear that while Georgetown didn't get the chance to oppose a Metro stop (because they weren't getting one in the first place), they would have tried and perhaps succeeded in blocking one had WMATA included a stop in the initial plans. Many other towns in similar situations did, and succeeded, which is why so many around DC believe Georgetown did the same. It's only geographic luck and excessively suburban-centric thinking by the WMATA designers that save them from having made such a short-sighted decision.Fast-forwarding to present-day, I do think (as I said on the GGW post and on Topher Matthews' blog before that) that if the neighbors really want to back up their words about reducing congestion and promoting urbanism, they should be actively lobbying for a separated Blue Line that would include Georgetown University and Georgetown proper stops. We knows that this is on WMATA's wish list. We know that these people have influence (why else do you think Jack Evans is adamantly against raising taxes and wants to reduce parking fees in Georgetown?). Let's see some talk of serious, long-term solutions.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 16, 2011 12:46:42 GMT -5
3rd zoning commision meeting tonight. Is this the last one? If so when can we expect a ruling?
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on May 17, 2011 11:43:52 GMT -5
3rd zoning commision meeting tonight. Is this the last one? If so when can we expect a ruling? Three more hearings. June 2 will pick up with any remaining people who want to testify in support. HINT HINT!!! Then move to CAG/BCA testimony, cross, and then the individual people in opposition (there are 40+). June 6 will feature any opponents who didn't get to testify on June 2, followed by the University's rebuttal. And then cross of that. June 20 will feature DDOT's report, cross of DDOT and any supplemental presentation by the parties in response to DDOT's report. A vote won't come until after June 20. The date of the vote depends on whether the Commission asks for additional information from GU and the parties and agencies, and how long it takes to provide that info.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 19, 2011 19:58:28 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 20, 2011 8:45:54 GMT -5
“I know what happens when students move into the community,” Orange said in a February candidate forum. “It’s parties every single day.” Jeez, could you imagine if UMCP was in DC? They'd want the students sequestered in dorms with bars on the windows.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on May 20, 2011 13:26:06 GMT -5
this is completely asinine....any more proof needed that the government is a broken system?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on May 23, 2011 15:54:40 GMT -5
If we had just elected Lev Babiev back in late nineties as GUSA president, we'd have attacked Burlieth with a giant catapult and given it back to the wolves, and we wouldn't be having this issue. I loved that guy.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 2, 2011 22:40:41 GMT -5
Many thanks and kudos to TrueHoyaBlue for testifying at the Zoning Commission hearing tonight!
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