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Post by williambraskyiii on Jan 10, 2011 12:11:06 GMT -5
I'll admit it, Sarah Palin is responsible for this tragedy. By her targeting people she is blatantly asking her supporters to use violence against anyone that disagrees with her. There, I've said what some on this board are inferring without having the guts to say it outright. To be clear, I wasn't and I don't think anyone else thinks she's responsible in any way. Clearly it was a psycho, as it has been in virtually all of the incidents you listed, Ed. Which is why, as much as I want to look at this event and say "see, this is why we need more gun control" (how does someone with this guy's track record walk into a store and buy one?) or say, "see, this is why we need better access to all types of health care" (shouldn't someone have picked up and helped this guy out?), the reality is that crazy people have always and will always find ways to be crazy, and there's nothing we can really do about it. Tragedies happen and what makes them tragic is often that they are senseless and unpredictable and unstoppable. There's no political point to made -- or gained -- by any side on this one. Other than, perhaps, how quickly we all move to the political. I shamefully admit my initial reaction was to assume it was a right-winger, and furthermore was to look for some sort of "lesson". But there is none to be learned other than crazy people are crazy, bad things happen to good people, and there are everyday heroes all around us. This is exactly right. Ambassador seems intent on making a point here about political propaganda gone too far, but there is no evidence that this was at all linked to the "vitriolic" political discourse in contemporary society. The guy was a lunatic. Ambassador, you make some good points from time to time, but you lose all credibility (much like Elvado) when you can't distinguish between blatant liberal (conservative) trolling from the daily kos' (insert conservative blog here) of the world and reality. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 10, 2011 12:17:31 GMT -5
To be clear, I wasn't and I don't think anyone else thinks she's responsible in any way. Clearly it was a psycho, as it has been in virtually all of the incidents you listed, Ed. Which is why, as much as I want to look at this event and say "see, this is why we need more gun control" (how does someone with this guy's track record walk into a store and buy one?) or say, "see, this is why we need better access to all types of health care" (shouldn't someone have picked up and helped this guy out?), the reality is that crazy people have always and will always find ways to be crazy, and there's nothing we can really do about it. Tragedies happen and what makes them tragic is often that they are senseless and unpredictable and unstoppable. There's no political point to made -- or gained -- by any side on this one. Other than, perhaps, how quickly we all move to the political. I shamefully admit my initial reaction was to assume it was a right-winger, and furthermore was to look for some sort of "lesson". But there is none to be learned other than crazy people are crazy, bad things happen to good people, and there are everyday heroes all around us. This is exactly right. Ambassador seems intent on making a point here about political propaganda gone too far, but there is no evidence that this was at all linked to the "vitriolic" political discourse in contemporary society. The guy was a lunatic. Ambassador, you make some good points from time to time, but you lose all credibility (much like Elvado) when you can't distinguish between blatant liberal (conservative) trolling from the daily kos' (insert conservative blog here) of the world and reality. Thank you for your broadside. Please note my absence from this discussion as it is both pointles and, at this time of grieving and/or hoping, tasteless. Carry on children. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2011 12:20:48 GMT -5
Brasky - I think any point that this was triggered by psychological issues may be right, but it is no less speculative right now than any other theory. We don't have a diagnosis, much less one that can be linked to violence.
Do we really need a linkage to something before we act to prevent it or limit it? If the threat is big enough (and I think the numbers there are troubling), it seems appropriate to act before we have another smoking gun. What I have seen are reports that Loughner espoused the anti-government ideas of radicals and was troubled by Giffords' reaction to one of these radical theories. That's a lot more concrete to me than this cloudy psychological stuff where he could just dream it up or something, like Inception gone wrong. This psychological stuff practically assumes that we can't learn anything (assumes away the radical ideology angle) because he was apparently crazy beyond recognition.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 10, 2011 12:59:05 GMT -5
God, I agree with Elvado. I need to go get checked for illness or something.
The guy is crazy. The shooting was awful. This has nothing to do with anything else, certainly not Sarah Palin and metaphorical targets. The (Dem) rhetoric that there's a causal tie between that and this shooting is as bad as the constant (Rep) aggressive rhetoric itself.
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 13:15:06 GMT -5
God, I agree with Elvado. I need to go get checked for illness or something. The guy is crazy. The shooting was awful. This has nothing to do with anything else, certainly not Sarah Palin and metaphorical targets. The (Dem) rhetoric that there's a causal tie between that and this shooting is as bad as the constant (Rep) aggressive rhetoric itself. I agree as well. The amount of armchair pyschoanalysis is astonishing. Ambassador (I think) was right when he said it's surprising that this doesn't happen more often, but not for the reason he gave. It's surprising not because of the current political climate, but because of our open and free society. Because of the open access to our elected leaders and the significant numbers of people with mental problems, it's a surprise this doesn't happen more often. And I disagree that the current political climate is more politicized or more vitriolic. The only thing that has increased more than [allegedly] the use of violent metaphors in our political discourse is the hand-wringing and self-flagellation over the alleged increase in violent language. For every Sarah Palin post, the other side can point to a quote by Obama. Go back throughout American history and you'll find similar language by all political parties. |
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Post by Bando on Jan 10, 2011 13:31:31 GMT -5
Violent rhetoric as metaphor is pervasive is our society, and I don't think you can take Sarah Palin's targets or the President's Untouchables quote as anything other than metaphor (as an aside, conservatives, the way to combat unfair blaming on the part of some of the left is not tu quoque). In politics, people run "campaigns" where they "target" "battleground" states and districts. They "attack" and "defend" ideas and policies, and "hold" their own "positions". Even in basketball, we "shoot" the ball and play "offense" and "defense". A good shooter is often referred to as an "assassin" or "marksman". Unless you're going to rail against the guys at Hoya Prospectus for encouraging Nazi-like bloodletting when discussing "offensive efficiency", it's frankly stupid to assign blame to anything Sarah Palin, Barack Obama, etc. said when they clearly were using violent words as a metaphor.
Now, I do think some rhetoric over the past few years has been suspect, not because it used violent rhetoric as metaphor, but because it was either a) untrue or b) unable to be read in any other way except for inciting violence. Under a) you have the birthers, "death panels", and various CommuNazi insults thrown at the President. These are dangerous because if the President were really an illegitimate Communist who was establishing tyranny* and murdering the elderly, violent radicalism wouldn't be so illogical. As for b), I'm thinking mostly of Sharon Angle's "second amendment solutions", which I can't read as anything other than threatening political opponents with firearms.
Here's the crux, though: I can believe what I wrote in the previous paragraph and still think that such rhetoric had absolutely nothing to do with Saturday's events. This was the work of a disturbed man who did what he did for political reasons, but they're political reasons that appear nonsensical to the rest of us. I'm still thankful that political violence is rare in this country, and the only thing I would do to further protect against it is to make a law that designates that someone of the same party should be appointed to fill a dead official's seat (so killing a politician gives no chance of a change in policy).
* I think there are some tyrannical aspects to the Obama administration. But what I think is tyrannical (asserting a right to kill American citizens without due process) is different than most tea partiers (passing health insurance reform).
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 10, 2011 13:53:31 GMT -5
Emails from a classmate of Loughner's outlining his mental instability in June. voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/jared-loughners-behavior-recor.html?hpid=topnewsGive the above, how is it possible that he passes the federal background check for getting a gun instantly??? Nov. 30: Jared Loughner purchases a 9mm Glock semiautomatic handgun at Sportsman's Warehouse in Tucson. He passes the federal background check instantly. |
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 10, 2011 14:06:01 GMT -5
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 10, 2011 14:11:15 GMT -5
Emails from a classmate of Loughner's outlining his mental instability in June. voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/jared-loughners-behavior-recor.html?hpid=topnewsGive the above, how is it possible that he passes the federal background check for getting a gun instantly??? Nov. 30: Jared Loughner purchases a 9mm Glock semiautomatic handgun at Sportsman's Warehouse in Tucson. He passes the federal background check instantly. Blame Obama for this shooting. He's responsible for federal passing of this background check. Just kiddin'. That's how ridiculous things can become. |
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 10, 2011 14:11:21 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2011 14:21:44 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...I guess where I end up is...assuming all of the comments are true about this not being a cultural/normative issue with respect to discourse, are we wasting our time going after the madrassas/schools/mosques/imams that use heated, violent rhetoric? Why not trust Muslims to see the distinctions?
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 14:26:52 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...I guess where I end up is...assuming all of the comments are true about this not being a cultural/normative issue with respect to discourse, are we wasting our time going after the madrassas/schools/mosques/imams that use heated, violent rhetoric? Why not trust Muslims to see the distinctions? Are you trying to intentionally ignore the distinction? The shooting in Arizona is being blamed on metaphors for targeting certain districts for political victory. In going after certain Islamic factions, we're going after people advocating actions based on a "Death to America" belief. Can you really not see the difference? |
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 10, 2011 14:27:11 GMT -5
Emails from a classmate of Loughner's outlining his mental instability in June. voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/jared-loughners-behavior-recor.html?hpid=topnewsGive the above, how is it possible that he passes the federal background check for getting a gun instantly??? Nov. 30: Jared Loughner purchases a 9mm Glock semiautomatic handgun at Sportsman's Warehouse in Tucson. He passes the federal background check instantly. The problem is that he was never went through the process to be adjudicated mentally ill. A random community college student isn't exactly the right person to be determining whether a person should lose their 2nd Amendment rights. Of course, that leaves out the issue that it seems like his behavior was blatant enough that he should have seen a professional who could have started the process. That might be on the school, but I don't know / think anyone necessarily has the power to force him to see a professional unless he's arrested / charged & convicted. And even then it's complicated. I don't actually know too much about that process, but maybe someone else could explain how someone is adjudicated mentally ill? Considering how big of a joke the terrorist watch list is, and how hard it is to get your name off of it, well, it's probably a good thing that no one is using it to deprive people of their 2nd Amdt. rights. |
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Post by TC on Jan 10, 2011 14:29:26 GMT -5
Violent rhetoric as metaphor is pervasive is our society, and I don't think you can take Sarah Palin's targets or the President's Untouchables quote as anything other than metaphor (as an aside, conservatives, the way to combat unfair blaming on the part of some of the left is not tu quoque). In politics, people run "campaigns" where they "target" "battleground" states and districts. They "attack" and "defend" ideas and policies, and "hold" their own "positions". Even in basketball, we "shoot" the ball and play "offense" and "defense". A good shooter is often referred to as an "assassin" or "marksman" Basketball shooting is only vile, violent imagery when you have to watch Jerelle Benimon jack up three pointers. C'mon - this is Deborah Tannen nonsense - shooting, offense and defense all have their own context as standard terminology within the sport of basketball. They may have derived from projectile weapons, but that's where the comparison ends. Graphic crosshairs and M-16 meet-and-greet events, not so much. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2011 14:34:29 GMT -5
Interesting discussion...I guess where I end up is...assuming all of the comments are true about this not being a cultural/normative issue with respect to discourse, are we wasting our time going after the madrassas/schools/mosques/imams that use heated, violent rhetoric? Why not trust Muslims to see the distinctions? Are you trying to intentionally ignore the distinction? The shooting in Arizona is being blamed on metaphors for targeting certain districts for political victory. In going after certain Islamic factions, we're going after people advocating actions based on a "Death to America" belief. Can you really not see the difference? I see the distinction but view it as hair splitting. Nobody is blaming or has blamed the shooting on metaphors. We're saying that this rhetoric creates a climate that promotes violence - just as things like video games and professional wrestling have been said to promote violence. When I look at what's out there on Loughner, I'm not sure there's much difference in what he has said and an Al Qaeda mentality. Regardless, I think our war on terror practice has always erred on the side of enforcement, particularly on the more cultural stuff, regardless of how attenuated the link may be. I'd like to see the same caution here. Some of the political rhetoric - particularly that which attacks the legal legitimacy of Obama - walks a very fine line as being an attack on the government itself. |
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 10, 2011 14:43:55 GMT -5
TBird, Loughner's parents could have petitioned a court for involuntary civil commitment based upon the Pima Comm. College's expulsion of him because of his bizarre behavior. law.onecle.com/arizona/public-health-and-safety/36-540.htmlRe: terrorist watch list, point well-taken, I worked with the watch list for a number of years and despite many efforts to make the system more robust, still problematic |
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 10, 2011 15:29:51 GMT -5
Dallas Green: 'Worst thing to happen'Excerpt
Green, a tough guy throughout his career known for a gruff and direct manner, told the Daily News he had seen the news of the shootings on TV and "didn't make any connection" that his grandaughter might have been in the area.
Green, 76, said his wife had then phoned their son and returned to the room in tears.
"They shot our beautiful Christina," she said, according to Green.
"I can't believe this could happen to any 9-year-old child, much less our own," Dallas Green said.
"The worst thing to ever happen to us." Let's remember that innocent people were killed and many others, including Rep. Giffords, were seriously injured. This is a Human story, a Human tragedy that affects ALL Americans. I don't thinking asking people to tone down their political rhetoric and to stop trying to delegitimize and demonize the other party and the millions of American Citizens they represent is out of line at this time, nor at any other time.
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 16:22:32 GMT -5
I don't thinking asking people to tone down their political rhetoric and to stop trying to delegitimize and demonize the other party and the millions of American Citizens they represent is out of line at this time, nor at any other time. Is anyone actually offended looking at this image: tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/palin-crosshairs.jpgIs anyone truly bothered by Obama talking about bringing a gun to a knife fight, or telling his supporters to argue with, and get in the faces of, the opposition? Or Daily Kos putting bulls eyes on certain members of Congress? |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2011 16:36:44 GMT -5
Law enforcement has rounded up a terrorist who threatened Senator Bennet (D-CO).
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Post by kchoya on Jan 10, 2011 16:50:17 GMT -5
Law enforcement has rounded up a terrorist who threatened Senator Bennet (D-CO). 1. Threats were made to the staff. 2. Why is he a terrorist? |
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