DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 16, 2010 18:23:16 GMT -5
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 16, 2010 20:11:38 GMT -5
Has Jeter been doing his off-season training in Cameron Indoor Stadium?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 16, 2010 21:08:14 GMT -5
Clearly this is only the tip of the iceberg...
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 16, 2010 22:57:08 GMT -5
I must admit that at the time, I was rather pi$$ed off. As most probably know, immediately after Jeter cheated, Granderson hit a 2 run homer, turning a 1 run Ray lead into a 1 run Yankee lead. Thankfully, Mr. Johnson repeated his earlier act and when all was said and done, no harm was done ... at least to what really matters. Although Mr. Jeter's rep seems to have taken a noticeable downturn. In all honesty, I don't think that much of it ... at least as it reflects on him. I do think that it reflects rather poorly on both the umpires as well as the system we have. Of course, given what happened to the Calvin Johnson and his Lion teammates, what would we expect?
The sport doesn't matter -- hand-ball/no hand-ball ... catch/no catch ... hbp/strike or even out ... the paid guys with their version of a badge seem to have a perpetual mulligan.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 17, 2010 8:33:06 GMT -5
i disagree it only reflects poorly on jeter. Umpires can miss calls. It happens all the time. But faking an injury like that is a complete bitch move.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 17, 2010 9:49:45 GMT -5
If you've seen Jeter play this year-it's very much symbolizes the season he's had. Impersonating a major leaguer all year--and really he's in junkie mode to try and get on base--he's an easy out usually with weak ground balls to 2B or SS.
I'd let him go after this year--but I have no loyalty to players--only the team--and you know Yankees will do what they did with Posada and A-Rod--and give him far too many years/too much $ for stupid things like his "3000 hit in Pinstripes".
Better yet---having losers/clowns like Berkman, Kearns, Granderson (nice guy but an awful player) as the pickups has made me hope this team blows their chance at postseason and collapses--so the proper changes will be addressed.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 17, 2010 12:34:12 GMT -5
Granderson was really good last year. Perhaps that was a fluke, but I don't think the Yankees will give up on him yet. See the White Sox and Nick Swisher.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 17, 2010 13:13:45 GMT -5
This ain't golf. Smart play.
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Post by strummer8526 on Sept 17, 2010 15:55:46 GMT -5
If you've seen Jeter play this year-it's very much symbolizes the season he's had. Impersonating a major leaguer all year--and really he's in junkie mode to try and get on base--he's an easy out usually with weak ground balls to 2B or SS. I'd let him go after this year--but I have no loyalty to players--only the team--and you know Yankees will do what they did with Posada and A-Rod--and give him far too many years/too much $ for stupid things like his "3000 hit in Pinstripes". Better yet---having losers/clowns like Berkman, Kearns, Granderson (nice guy but an awful player) as the pickups has made me hope this team blows their chance at postseason and collapses--so the proper changes will be addressed. Are you a Yankee fan? Because any Yankee fan who talks about Jeter that way should be taken out back. The guy is a great player. His best season? Certainly not. A great play to get on base? Absolutely. Take it however you can get it. Make your own luck.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 17, 2010 22:02:13 GMT -5
Let's not confuse issues. If the issue is how good/great Jeter is as a player, then fine. I will defer to those who pay more attention to the Yankees on a consistent basis.
If the issue is how good is Jeter this season, then I think the answer is quite obviously illustrated by statistics.
But if the issue is the particular play from Wednesday's game then let's keep on discussion. My point was that his rep seems to have taken a hit, at least from the discussions that I have heard and read among the sports shows and articles. Personally, I think the criticisms are a bit overblown. My main objection is with the umpires and in general, our system. Like the rest of you, I have grown tired of many excessive uses of replays as well as decisions that seem to fly in the face of common sense, even after wasting much of our time doing so. Still, I just can't think that in this case, the "best" action was to let such an obviously erroneous decision stand. But getting back to the original issue, I side with those who consider Jeter's ploy/play to be a part of the game. If you don't like it, then "fix" the rules to take care of it, but don't come out and blame the player.
Who has ever voiced an outrage over a player who makes proudly holds his glove high after diving and scooping a sinking liner? Who has boisterously complained of a catcher who frames a slightly outside pitch a few inches? Who has gone on record criticizing the player who skims "near" second base while turning a double play with the infamous phantom tag? Again, my point isn't whether the calls in these cases should stand, but rather that lambasting the player isn't justified.
Trying to get "out of the way" of an inside pitch while really doing just the opposite has been an art for decades. This is nothing more than a slight evolution of that practice.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 17, 2010 22:45:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry faking get hit by a pitch isn't gamesmanship. It's cheating and a bitch move. There's no other word for it.
How is it any different then soccer players diving to get a free kick. Everyone blasts people for that all the time, yet it happens in baseball and it's fine? Lambasting jeter or anyone who does this is completely justified in my opinion.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 17, 2010 23:07:30 GMT -5
If you've seen Jeter play this year-it's very much symbolizes the season he's had. Impersonating a major leaguer all year--and really he's in junkie mode to try and get on base--he's an easy out usually with weak ground balls to 2B or SS. I'd let him go after this year--but I have no loyalty to players--only the team--and you know Yankees will do what they did with Posada and A-Rod--and give him far too many years/too much $ for stupid things like his "3000 hit in Pinstripes". Better yet---having losers/clowns like Berkman, Kearns, Granderson (nice guy but an awful player) as the pickups has made me hope this team blows their chance at postseason and collapses--so the proper changes will be addressed. Are you a Yankee fan? Because any Yankee fan who talks about Jeter that way should be taken out back. The guy is a great player. His best season? Certainly not. A great play to get on base? Absolutely. Take it however you can get it. Make your own luck. Yankee fan all my life--but I don't see this story ending pretty. Guy is a liability on defense-and his numbers are "great" defensively because he can't get to any balls that others make errors on--and he's got an outstanding 1B who saves him numerous sloppy throwing errors. It was tolerable when you considered he's a lifetime .313 hitter--but if he's going to hit .255-.260 then you have to reduce his salary to fit his worth--and that will never happen--he's got to large of an ego and the Yankees will pay him for past services and this "Want to see him get 3000th hit in a Yankee uniform". So I'm guessing 3 year deal with far more money then he can produce and he'll not move from SS--which also needs to happen. Jeter has been a great player, and one of my favorite Yankees ever--but you've got to be able to seperate sentiment from productivity. Was it cold when the old timers put up monster numbers and took pay cuts due to losing in arbitration back in day? Sure--but you have to build a team with eye on winning/competing to win--not to reward guys who helped you win--that was what the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars were for--so time to switch positions and actually work with Kevin Long instead of "wanting to be left alone" or time to go. He'll likely have 1 bounce back season and then steep decline--which I hope Yankees aren't on hook for 2/3 more years after a decent/bounceback year (hopefully).
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 18, 2010 0:30:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry faking get hit by a pitch isn't gamesmanship. It's cheating and a bitch move. There's no other word for it. How is it any different then soccer players diving to get a free kick. Everyone blasts people for that all the time, yet it happens in baseball and it's fine? Lambasting jeter or anyone who does this is completely justified in my opinion. I have to admit that it is hard to argue your view. But I think I can be objective since I am defending the offending individual, even though he was playing for the "enemy." Would I be so "understanding" if the outcome of the game went the wrong way? That's tough to say, but probably not. Still, my question is where you draw the line? Catcher's frame pitches. What are they doing? They are catching the ball and bringing it back towards the strikezone to give the appearance of it having been more of a strike and less of a ball. Why? Obviously, to convince someone or something of the ball's location. When an outfielder dives for a sinking liner and scoops the ball almost perfectly, he proudly and prominently displays the glove containing the ball in the air for all to see. When a middle infielder skims in the vacinity of second base, but clearly doesn't make an inkling of contact, yet he continues with a throw to first. But Jeter, while attempting a bunt is brushed back by an inside tailing pitch, only to have the ball carom off the knob of the bat and into is midsection results in his almost instantaneous dropping of the bat and curious antics. Am I to understand that the first group of plays are "acceptable" but in Jeter's case, he was clearly cheating? I just don't get it. I understand the sentiment that somehow, someway, Jeter cheated either the game or the opponent. But I don't see how he should be villianized personally in some way. Please enlighten me.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 20, 2010 12:24:15 GMT -5
It's not even the question of cheating in my mind. I just think it's a bitch move and I can't think of another word for it. The other examples you give I don't see as cheating or unseemly at all. Scooping the ball? to me maybe he thinks he did get it? And why wouldn't you throw to first. You have to try and make one out at least? Framing the pitch I guess I see that as the catchers job.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 20, 2010 15:06:43 GMT -5
Does anyone remember Reggie Jackson, caught between first and second, a putting his leg out ... just a little... to obstruct the throw to first? I think it was in the WS. Got away with it too.
What was that? Gamesmanship? "bitch" move?
BTW, if you are holding a bat and the knob gets hit by a 90 mph fastball an inch or two from your hand, I'd bet it would sting a helluva lot, even it you did not get a hit directly on your fingers.
BTW2, where do corked bats stand on this list? Spitballs? Greased balls?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 20, 2010 15:15:58 GMT -5
Does anyone remember Reggie Jackson, caught between first and second, a putting his leg out ... just a little... to obstruct the throw to first? I think it was in the WS. Got away with it too. What was that? Gamesmanship? "bitch" move? It was cheating. Cheating. Cheating. And cheating.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 20, 2010 15:23:24 GMT -5
Is it cheating? I don't think so, not technically.
Is it lying and dishonest? Yes. Pretty much textbook. I'm not sure when "lying to win" became acceptable. Most people don't lie when they don't get something out of it.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 20, 2010 15:26:34 GMT -5
Is it cheating? I don't think so, not technically. Is it lying and dishonest? Yes. Pretty much textbook. I'm not sure when "lying to win" became acceptable. Most people don't lie when they don't get something out of it. Everything you described is against the rules. Sliding out of the base bath and using foreign substances on a bat or ball are all illegal in baseball. I call that cheating. Other people call it "gamesmanship." Other people are stupid. (but that's a whole 'nother thread)
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 20, 2010 15:30:31 GMT -5
Is there actually a rule in baseball against faking getting hit by a pitch? I know in hockey and soccer there are specific rules against diving, but I've never heard of such a rule in baseball.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 20, 2010 15:36:17 GMT -5
Is there actually a rule in baseball against faking getting hit by a pitch? I know in hockey and soccer there are specific rules against diving, but I've never heard of such a rule in baseball. I don't know the answer to that. I didn't accuse Jeter of cheating because I am unaware of a rule against doing what he did. I did, however, accuse him of acting like a puss Dukie. And I stand by that.
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