JimmyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Hoya fan, est. 1986
Posts: 1,867
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Post by JimmyHoya on Jan 7, 2010 18:14:24 GMT -5
It's a lot more difficult to wait till there's only a second left to put up a shot and be confident about a conversion. It's just like at the end of the shot clock--everybody knows its coming. You HAVE to shoot it, there's no potential for shot fakes, or anything else to give you spacing. The best you can hope for is a bailout foul call that rarely comes. You provide no margin for error when you wait, while if you take a shot with 7 seconds to go, the defense doesn't know when it's coming or where it's coming from, it's likely in the flow of the offense and it's just an overall better opportunity. You make a pretty enormous assumption complaining about leaving too much time for the other side to score. Plus, you obviously get all the rebounding opportunities.
Y'know who liked to wait till there was no time left? Braswell. We all know how well that worked out.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Jan 7, 2010 18:22:01 GMT -5
Robby,
You should go and watch greg play. He misses tons of lay-ups and bunnies around the hoop. That's not a critique. That's fact. He doesn't finish well around the hoop, and people who think he does just don't watch every game.
At this point in time, Chris and Austin both finish better around the basket. So does Julian. So, yes, when it comes to our starting five, Greg is actually one of our worst finishers.
He's turned into a very good rebounder. He's a great passer, and the offense should no doubt run through him.
But scoring wise, he's not anywhere near what Jeff was as a freshman, sophomore or junior. We can't just throw it in to him and say "big fella, go get us a basket", because he'll finish maybe half the time.
So when he takes six shots in a game and Chris and Austin double that, I'm perfectly fine with it. Like I said, he's much more a facillitator than finisher at this point and the people who want to make him the focal point of the offense scoring wise are pretty much ignoring his most glaring weakness.
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,266
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Post by richfame on Jan 7, 2010 18:25:31 GMT -5
Daytona if what you say if true, and at gregs stage of development he cant get us a basket when we need it then I look forward to him coming back at least next year and maybe staying all four years..
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 7, 2010 18:25:32 GMT -5
A few things:
1. The worst part last night was clearly the offensive boards we gave up. Nothing else was too egregious. Marquette shot 12-26 from three and won by 3 at home. Basically grab a few boards and we win.
2. The "not enough shots" for whomever anyone says is partially true but much of this is just pace. If the first three games are any indication we are going to be the slowest team in the Big East. So expect a lot of 60-point games. As such, unless everyone gets precisely 12 someone will have single digits. Austin went off last night so if one player is hot, more than one will have an abnormally low total. I don't think we should freak out too much.
3. The last play, upon further review, looks like a busted play. I don't know what we wanted but that didn't look like it.
4. Overall it was exactly the game everyone expected. That's kind of this team so far. While last year's team was about wild swings of the unexpected, this year's team is kind of right where think it is. I'd hope to see them make a move at some point but for now, you can almost look at the KenPom predictions and I would not be shocked if we almost followed 1-for-1.
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hsaxa2010
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 408
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Post by hsaxa2010 on Jan 7, 2010 18:26:14 GMT -5
JohnnyJones is 100% right. You take that shot early and not at the buzzer so you get a chance to get an OReb, or you get to foul. Plus, its the way we do it. Against Vandy, they still had time for a desperation heave. And against UNC, they still had time to bring the ball up and get a solid look from Ellington (I think). Or should Jon have waited? Just to play fact-checker, we got the ball back under the opposite net with 14.4 seconds to go, so pretty much we had to go to work right away, which left Vandy a little time for that desperation heave. As for Jon's shot, looking at the SI pciture from the game, there was 24 seconds left on the shot clock and 33 seconds left of game, so if Jon waited then UNC would still have 9 seconds to do a play. But I agree that it was good not to do a desperation shot at the buzzer for the win (maybe call a time out to get a play ready and talk it over, but that's another discussion)
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 7, 2010 18:34:56 GMT -5
Daytona, the answer is yes and no. Greg seems to be a weak finisher. Thing is -- he's statistically been pretty good on the season -- shooting 60% on layups and dunks. Where his weak finishing is is when he's far enough away for it to be considered a "jumper." I know that seems incredibly low, but it's about what Roy did as a senior. Jeff is a different story -- he shot closer to 70% on those as a junior, which is fantastic. So Greg's hardly a strong finisher, but he's not weaker than Roy. The difference is that while Roy shot over 50% on his 2 pt jumpers -- mostly hook shots and low post moves. Greg isn't making those this year -- 25% at last year (link = hoyaprospectus.blogspot.com/2010/01/shot-selelction-and-lineup-efficiencies.html. So I guess it is more of where you get Greg the ball. Right next to the hoop isn't a bad spot. Top of the key is pretty nice. But asking him to back someone down and put in a shot -- I'm with you -- he's not there yet.
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KHoyaNYC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,901
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 7, 2010 19:24:56 GMT -5
Daytona, the answer is yes and no. Greg seems to be a weak finisher. Thing is -- he's statistically been pretty good on the season -- shooting 60% on layups and dunks. Where his weak finishing is is when he's far enough away for it to be considered a "jumper." I know that seems incredibly low, but it's about what Roy did as a senior. Jeff is a different story -- he shot closer to 70% on those as a junior, which is fantastic. So Greg's hardly a strong finisher, but he's not weaker than Roy. The difference is that while Roy shot over 50% on his 2 pt jumpers -- mostly hook shots and low post moves. Greg isn't making those this year -- 25% at last year (link = hoyaprospectus.blogspot.com/2010/01/shot-selelction-and-lineup-efficiencies.html. So I guess it is more of where you get Greg the ball. Right next to the hoop isn't a bad spot. Top of the key is pretty nice. But asking him to back someone down and put in a shot -- I'm with you -- he's not there yet. Look I'm not syaing Monroe has to take the most shots on the team or be the "focal point" of the scoring on offense but 6 shots in the entire game with no foul trouble? That's criminal. It's not like other aspects of his game suffer either when he puts it up more. The Butler, Washington and Harvard games, wins against three very good teams, are all great examples of this. As SF points out, his just outside of around the rim game needs a bit of improvement but it's not so bad that I want him not taking his shots. Bottom line, this season, I want the Greg Monroe who showed up against Butler and Washington, not the old passive Greg who showed up last night.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Jan 7, 2010 21:22:16 GMT -5
I don't want to beat this to death because I think Greg is a great player.
But the reason Greg scored as much against Butler and Washington was because neither of those two teams had anyone close to what Greg is, which is 6-11 and athletic. He scored on mostly dunks and putbacks.
It's a different story in the Big East. He's not at that stage where he can create you a shot, and he hasn't shown the ability to get to his sweet spot, which I'm not sure if he even has a sweet spot.
Thing is, even without this, Greg is fantastic and in a lot of ways reminds me of Tim Duncan. His rebounding, passing and his ability to make others around him better.
Now he's got to round out the package. And that's why, IMO, he needs another year. Jeff went into the league ready to dominate. DaJuan didn't and that's why he's sitting on the bench. I don't want Greg sitting on anyone's bench. I really want dude to be an all-star when he gets there, ala Tim Duncan.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,920
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Post by Filo on Jan 7, 2010 21:42:57 GMT -5
A few things: 1. The worst part last night was clearly the offensive boards we gave up. Nothing else was too egregious. Marquette shot 12-26 from three and won by 3 at home. Basically grab a few boards and we win. It seemed to me that a lot of those rebounds were the result of big bounces off of missed threes or pretty distant twos, partially explaining the 12 to 6 offensive rebounding discrepancy. But then, of course, there were several that the Hoyas could have and should have collected, but just didn't get it done. Not having Vaughn in hurt.
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KHoyaNYC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,901
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 8, 2010 10:00:33 GMT -5
Let's not forget that about this time three years ago we were 11-5, 1-2 in conference, had a home loss to Old Dominion, and were being called by the media the most disappointing team so far in the season. That year ended up pretty well. It's a long season.
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DudeSlade
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I got through the Esherick years. I can get through anything.
Posts: 1,209
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Post by DudeSlade on Jan 8, 2010 13:00:32 GMT -5
When I first read this I thought it was a joke. Greg is our worst finisher? Dude, the guy has made go-to shots look easy time and again, Gasol-like baseline spin moves etc., even last year he flushed crunch-time dunks. I just wanted to pick-up on an what I think is an excellent observation here. We have derided Greg for his lack of athleticism and/or his lack of strength/hops, etc. And therefore, the comments have come back that Duncan isn't any of those either and Greg has been compared to him for his skill level. I have been arguing (amongst friends) all year that as robbyt brings up, Monroe reminds me a great deal of Pau Gasol. Both are taller than you think looking at them, more slender/not as strong as you'd expect at that height, not high flyers/jumpers/dunkers, and have been knocked for their lack of intensity/passion at times. BUT, they are both extremely fluid in their movements and agile on the floor (a very different type of athleticism from hops, but imo a very underrated part of athleticism), they both have excellent vision and passing, both are very unselfish most of the time and have to be told to takeover, both actually do have a great deal of passion/intensity but not in the "look at me" ways, both will buckle down and defend when needed and are improving drastically as rebounders due to a new aggression towards it, both can hit mid-range jumpers and are good shooters for their positions, both are amongst the smartest players out there, and both are easy-going, affable guys that make their teammates look better, both because of slightness probably should play the 4 but can due to height play the 5, and both are/will be more effective as a #2 guy to a dominant wing player. Greg obviously is not at Gasol's level yet, but I can see very easily him developing the moves around the basket that Gasol has and improving in the other facets mentioned to the point that their games will closely resemble each other. So just thought I'd bring it up cuz it was mentioned. Gasol to me is the best comparison/aspiration for Monroe.
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