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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 17, 2009 11:46:27 GMT -5
Where your parents born in Italy? My dad was born in the Czech Republic if I were good enough to play soccer for a national team I would definitely play for the Czech republic over the US. It's a better team and would give me better exposure to get me onto the best club team.
I agree that people should not be allowed to use flimsy excuses to get onto a different national team. But it seems that he has a legitimate reason to play for italy. Are you saying immigrants can't have strong attachments to their home country? Their are tons of immigrants from south and central american countries here who cheer for their home countries when they come to play the US. Do you have a problem with that? Should they root for the US because they live here now?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jun 17, 2009 11:53:42 GMT -5
Where your parents born in Italy? My dad was born in the Czech Republic if I were good enough to play soccer for a national team I would definitely play for the Czech republic over the US. It's a better team and would give me better exposure to get me onto the best club team. I agree that people should not be allowed to use flimsy excuses to get onto a different national team. But it seems that he has a legitimate reason to play for italy. Are you saying immigrants can't have strong attachments to their home country? Their are tons of immigrants from south and central american countries here who cheer for their home countries when they come to play the US. Do you have a problem with that? Should they root for the US because they live here now? Yes i most certainly do have a problem with that. At what point do you think one should adopt the only country you actually have lived in? What about your kids? Do you expect them too to prefer a country that not even their father grew up in? Do you not think you owe allegiance to the country that you make your living in over one you vacation in? Where is the line? Or are there to be no more Americans anymore? Have we moved past that?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 17, 2009 13:18:17 GMT -5
they should adopt the country whenever they feel like. It's not the army. It's sports I don't think there are any obligations here. If he has more pride in his italian heritage than his current US living then that's fine with me. He has also played oversees a lot and played in their youth programs so lets not act like he's been in the US up until a few days before the game then jumped ship.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jun 17, 2009 13:32:36 GMT -5
Where your parents born in Italy? My dad was born in the Czech Republic if I were good enough to play soccer for a national team I would definitely play for the Czech republic over the US. It's a better team and would give me better exposure to get me onto the best club team. I agree that people should not be allowed to use flimsy excuses to get onto a different national team. But it seems that he has a legitimate reason to play for italy. Are you saying immigrants can't have strong attachments to their home country? Their are tons of immigrants from south and central american countries here who cheer for their home countries when they come to play the US. Do you have a problem with that? Should they root for the US because they live here now? Actually, I kind of have a problem with that, too. Root for Honduras to win every other game, but, if you're an American, shouldn't you, you know, root for America? For the national team - eh, some people want to be mercenaries (there was an American women's basketball player who switched over to the Russian team, and Qatar and some other Middle Eastern countries recruit Bulgarian weightlifters), but it just really is unseemly. If you can't sing your country's national anthem, what's the point? If you're just using the national team to get a better club contract, ick.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 17, 2009 13:58:04 GMT -5
People should be able to choose the team they want if it is within international rules.
Personally, I think they are ungrateful and selfish if they play for a country other than the one that provided opportunities for them all their life.
I'm not saying I'm not ungrateful and selfish at times, and probably for less advantageous reasons to me, but still, we are all hugely lucky to have been born in the U.S.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jun 17, 2009 14:19:39 GMT -5
I agree with SF, im not saying rossi should not have been allowed to choose to play for Italy, but we sure as hell dont have to be happy for him or his decision.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jun 17, 2009 14:30:46 GMT -5
People should be able to choose the team they want if it is within international rules. Personally, I think they are ungrateful and selfish if they play for a country other than the one that provided opportunities for them all their life. I'm not saying I'm not ungrateful and selfish at times, and probably for less advantageous reasons to me, but still, we are all hugely lucky to have been born in the U.S. I will say that, on the second point you make above, I can see people switching countries. If you switch your passport and prefer being a Spaniard or an Estonian or a Turk or a Canadian now that you're an adult, I'm cool with that. I just get annoyed when it's done solely for athletic reasons*. * With one kind of exception. If you're an OK athlete who's never going to make the Olympics in your chosen sport, and your new country is never going to come close to medaling, either with or without you, and you're aware that it's kind of weird, feel free to join the Honduran ice hockey team or the Norwegian baseball team. You can raise awareness of the sport you like in your adopted country, feel closer to another part of your heritage, and have Rick Reilly write a column about you.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 17, 2009 14:33:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I get that. I'd also say it is okay if you aren't going to make your team. But the country that gave you the opportunity should get first right of refusal.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jun 17, 2009 14:40:38 GMT -5
Where your parents born in Italy? My dad was born in the Czech Republic if I were good enough to play soccer for a national team I would definitely play for the Czech republic over the US. It's a better team and would give me better exposure to get me onto the best club team. I agree that people should not be allowed to use flimsy excuses to get onto a different national team. But it seems that he has a legitimate reason to play for italy. Are you saying immigrants can't have strong attachments to their home country? Their are tons of immigrants from south and central american countries here who cheer for their home countries when they come to play the US. Do you have a problem with that? Should they root for the US because they live here now? I was born in England, my parents and entire extended family are all British, but I'm an American by choice and I would never play for any other country. I also have a strong distaste for any "american" who roots for, let alone plays for other countries based on often tenuous family lineage.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 17, 2009 14:45:12 GMT -5
I also have a strong distaste for any "american" who roots for, let alone plays for other countries based on often tenuous family lineage. And there's the opening salvo of an always good offseason thread.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 17, 2009 14:55:14 GMT -5
So you arguably betrayed your british roots to be american but you have a problem with anyone who does vice-versa?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 17, 2009 15:50:37 GMT -5
So you arguably betrayed your british roots to be american but you have a problem with anyone who does vice-versa? I don't think Bridge would have an issue with someone born in America who moved to another country at the age he came here rooting for the other country. The issue he has -- which I share -- is the multitude of people who root for the team of the ancestry because the USA isn't good enough or to be cool. I have a friend who is Italian American. He's never been to Italy. He roots for Italy in the World Cup. When he said he'd root for Italy over the US, that's where I had words with him. Personally, I think it is a minor form of treason to play for another country.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jun 17, 2009 15:55:08 GMT -5
So you arguably betrayed your british roots to be american but you have a problem with anyone who does vice-versa? I don't think Bridge would have an issue with someone born in America who moved to another country at the age he came here rooting for the other country. The issue he has -- which I share -- is the multitude of people who root for the team of the ancestry because the USA isn't good enough or to be cool. I have a friend who is Italian American. He's never been to Italy. He roots for Italy in the World Cup. When he said he'd root for Italy over the US, that's where I had words with him. Personally, I think it is a minor form of treason to play for another country. I lived in Hoboken NJ during the brutal tie game vs Italy in 2006. I was incensed to see how many so-called Americans were rooting for Italy. You've lived here for 50 years, you can't root for the country that your children were raised in and succeeded in even in a game where the US is the massive underdog? Suck it. And FYI...my pronounciation of "mortadella" and "capicola" is actually closer to the real Italian than your absurd afectation...
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jun 17, 2009 16:14:25 GMT -5
I root for Italy in every game they play EXCEPT when they play the U.S.
I am not heartbroken when the US loses to Italy (both because I like the team of my family's heritgae, and because, let's face it, in most cases to date, the US has deserved to lose), but I do look forward to the day when the US will be able to beat Italy. It hasn't happened yet, but it will one day.
(England is probably my third favorite team, mostly because of all of my English friends and how much I like that country, but I would never root for them over the US either).
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hoyashoopfans
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Post by hoyashoopfans on Jun 17, 2009 16:25:33 GMT -5
Where your parents born in Italy? My dad was born in the Czech Republic if I were good enough to play soccer for a national team I would definitely play for the Czech republic over the US. It's a better team and would give me better exposure to get me onto the best club team. I agree that people should not be allowed to use flimsy excuses to get onto a different national team. But it seems that he has a legitimate reason to play for Italy. Are you saying immigrants can't have strong attachments to their home country? Their are tons of immigrants from south and central American countries here who cheer for their home countries when they come to play the US. Do you have a problem with that? Should they root for the US because they live here now? I was born in England, my parents and entire extended family are all British, but I'm an American by choice and I would never play for any other country. I also have a strong distaste for any "American" who roots for, let alone plays for other countries based on often tenuous family lineage. (1) I'm happy to see the interest in soccer among my fellow hoyas. (2) Umm, are you guys serious about Rossi? I mean the kid has been in the Italian farm system since he was 12. He played in their U-16 team. Trust me if he was raised here, in our sub-par farm system, I doubt that anybody would have ever talked about him; he wouldn't be that good. Seriously, there is a reason we are underdogs. He really hasn't been in the US since he was 12, when his parents realized this kid could really develop into something special. I'm personally rooting for the kids who grew up in OUR system. Its a sign of the system's improvement. Honestly, the conversation is about as dumb as an Italian wishing for Kobe ( for the sake of argument, imagine he happened to be born in Italy not Philly) to play for team Italy when he was young. GO U.S.A.! HOYA SAXA
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jun 17, 2009 16:27:38 GMT -5
The issue he has -- which I share -- is the multitude of people who root for the team of the ancestry because the USA isn't good enough or to be cool. I have a friend who is Italian American. He's never been to Italy. He roots for Italy in the World Cup. When he said he'd root for Italy over the US, that's where I had words with him. This, more than even the diving/flopping and the egregious skin tight metro-wear uniforms, is reason #1 why I detest the Italian National Team. It's frontrunners at their worst--and it's ideal for bandwagoning because the World Cup only happens once every four years. Rest assured 75% of these "fans" probably couldn't name you a single team in Serie A, except maybe AC Milan if they got lucky. That being said, I have zero problem with Giuseppe Rossi's decision, inasmuch as he'd always made his intent to play for Italy quite clear. And I'm pretty sure he was already overseas by his early teen years going through the club system. What's more, he's represented Italy at multiple levels of international competition, some of which I believe occurred prior to being invited (and declining) to the US camp in (I think) 2006. The Kobe analogy is a bit off, true--Rossi has far stronger "roots" if you can call them that in Jersey than Kobe did in Italy--but my point there was to indicate that neither guy gave any hint whatsoever they were intending to stay in their "adopted" countries, so nobody should act all surprised. As SF said, if it's within the rules, I'm fine with people doing it. And to be fair, the US has benefited several times from folks with dual citizenship or dual ancestry choosing to play for the Stars and Stripes. In fact, it's a near lock that three such players will represent the US in 2010--Freddy Adu (born in Ghana), Pablo Mastroeni (born in Argentina), and Jose Francisco Torres (born in Texas but a dual citizen in Mexico from his dad). And THEN, in probably a more direct parallel to Rossi, there's this guy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jermaine_Jones who was born in Germany, lived briefly in the US, plays in Germany, has played for the German U-21 team but is taking advantage of a soon-to-be-closed (pretty sure) loophole (he played only in friendlies) and petitioning FIFA so he can play for the USMNT. And I reckon he probably will, and may well end up being the fourth "dual" player for the US in South Africa. Stings to lose the one that by all accounts is a rising star in international soccer...but we've still made out okay.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Jun 17, 2009 16:44:35 GMT -5
So you arguably betrayed your british roots to be american but you have a problem with anyone who does vice-versa? I don't think Bridge would have an issue with someone born in America who moved to another country at the age he came here rooting for the other country. The issue he has -- which I share -- is the multitude of people who root for the team of the ancestry because the USA isn't good enough or to be cool. I have a friend who is Italian American. He's never been to Italy. He roots for Italy in the World Cup. When he said he'd root for Italy over the US, that's where I had words with him. Personally, I think it is a minor form of treason to play for another country. I came to the US as a toddler. I was a green card holder until 18, at which point I was naturalized as a citizen after swearing away the Queen. Personally, I wouldn't play for anyone but the US since it is the country that has given me all the opportunities in the world. England, for lack of a better phrase, can bugger off. As for my other comment, I think SF put it best when he clarified my point. But, never one to miss out on an incendiary shot across the bow...if you are rooting for any country over the United States based on the trivial fact that your last name is Murphy or D'Antonio, or Hasselhoff, well, in my opinion that's just proof that the terrorists have already won. PS I am trying to imagine what the media would say if Obama rooted for Kenya in the Confederations Cup...
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 17, 2009 17:30:18 GMT -5
For the most part I agree with everyone about the causal fans who root for other national teams just because of a distant relationship. However I'm fine with new immigrants and their families rooting for their old countries. This is america after all; we're free to make that choice.
As has been pointed out the Rossi situation was different and I have no problem with what he did.
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Post by washingtonhoya on Jun 17, 2009 17:39:57 GMT -5
The point FL makes is a good one--The rule regarding dual nationalities has been around long enough that this is a given aspect of international soccer culture, and therefore, players with the opportunity to play for multiple nations are going to play for the team that is in their best interest, be it emotionally (connection to a given country), financially (exposure/ability to move to larger clubs, get paid more, or land endorsements), or tactically (preferred style of play/emphasis on the player's position). Therefore I think it's important to separate the argument that (a) "Rossi/Jermaine Jones/[insert dual citizen here] should only be allowed to play for his home country" from (b) "I disagree with Rossi's decision and dislike him as a player because he turned his back on his true home."
(A) is largely a moot point, since there appears to be no movement within FIFA to change the rules anytime soon. And when FIFA wants to mess with nationality status and the ability of soccer players to earn a wage or represent the club or country of their choosing, they will do so, occasionally EU/international employment law be damned. Look at the Bosman case as a prime example, and FIFA/UEFA's heavy-handed '6+5' proposal, which on balance probably is against EU immigration and employment law, as well as violates UN proclamations on the free movement of persons. The fact that FIFA has instituted this system and doesn't plan to change it should make perfectly clear that the current rules are likely to stick around.
(B), however, is perfectly legitimate, and all are entitled to their opinion regarding what they think Rossi should have done and how his decision reflects on him. I don't think I fully agree with it. Yes, I would prefer that Rossi play for the USMNT, but his career has always pointed toward playing for Italy, moving to Europe to play for Parma's youth squad, and representing the Azzurri throughout his youth international career. A counterpoint would be Neven Subotic, who represented the US at the youth level but just recently announced he would represent Serbia at the senior level, complicated further by the fact that he was born in Bosnia to Serbian parents but moved to the US, making him eligible for three nations. This, to some degree, is a more bitter pill to swallow, as there is more there to suggest that the USSF "lost" Subotic whereas they never really had Rossi in the first place. The circumstances regarding Arena's courting of Rossi are all probably subjective, and we'll never really know the extent to which the US tried to get Rossi. All that aside, let's be honest...If Rossi comes on as a substitute, takes a couple bad touches and spends his entire time on the field passing the ball directly to Onyewu, no one cares that we missed him. Just like no one boos a benchwarmer, a really good lathered-up hate from American fans is probably a testament to Rossi's skill.
Personally, I'm disappointed that Rossi is playing for Italy but I understand the decision, and I'm disappointed that he celebrated as exuberantly as he did scoring against his "home" team--I really wish I could make those quotation marks bigger. If someone Eduardo's him and he has to sit out for 18 months to repair his broken leg and dislocated ankle, it will probably bring a mild smile to my face (no, I'm not a good person). Overall though...them's the breaks, as unsatisfying a conclusion as that is. The solution is not going to be in legislating that American-born players can only play for America. The solution is going to be in making players who have the opportunity to play for the USMNT and another team WANT to play for the United States. Get to the point where the boys can beat Italy, or tie them consistently*, and put up respectable results against other top teams especially at the World Cup, and the balance will start shifting in our favor. The Rossis and Subotics of the world will continue to exercise their FIFA-mandated right to represent a country they were not born in if they think it is in their best interest financially, or if they think they have a better shot at a Euro/World Cup medal. When the US reaches that point, this will be less of a concern.
*God it would be awesome if we would ever be allowed to play them 11v11 for a full 90 minutes. And speaking of defensive midfielders' unfortunate tendencies to get sent off for violent tackles in the first half against Italy, FL wrote
And to be fair, the US has benefited several times from folks with dual citizenship or dual ancestry choosing to play for the Stars and Stripes. In fact, it's a near lock that three such players will represent the US in 2010--Freddy Adu (born in Ghana), Pablo Mastroeni (born in Argentina), and Jose Francisco Torres (born in Texas but a dual citizen in Mexico from his dad).
GOOD GOD NO. Everyone start doing your Maurice Edu Recovery Dance right now, and don't stop until 2010.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Jun 17, 2009 18:42:58 GMT -5
I root for Italy in every game they play EXCEPT when they play the U.S. I am not heartbroken when the US loses to Italy (both because I like the team of my family's heritgae, and because, let's face it, in most cases to date, the US has deserved to lose), but I do look forward to the day when the US will be able to beat Italy. It hasn't happened yet, but it will one day. (England is probably my third favorite team, mostly because of all of my English friends and how much I like that country, but I would never root for them over the US either). Same for me, less the pro-England part.
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