RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jun 2, 2009 9:48:01 GMT -5
The same pro scouts who compliment the job III did in player development? The same scouts who have taken guys from Georgetown in 1st Round 2 years in a row--and if Summers makes it --3? If you look at the players "who havent' made it" at Georgetown--it had to do with BETTER TALENT coming in/taking their place. Who has left that was a tragic loss to the roster? I think Macklin would've been nice to have--but he's not assured of ever playing in the NBA and if you ever saw him play--he had no post game whatsoever entering Georgetown--he did when he departed. So Thornton, Spann, Rivers, Macklin, Egerson, Giubunda, etc...were all "tragic losses" despite the fact the team with guys playing in front of them won 2 Big East championships, made 2 BET Championship games--winning 1, and made the Final Four. Yeah that III and his "system" are idiotic. boy you are defensive. i would say so many transfers are an indication of something. macklin was an especially big loss and likely cost us an ncaa bid. (yes i know you disagree and it makes your blood boil to even suggest it.) doesnt seem summers leaving is all roses either. who exactly is the "better talent" that we were replacing macklin and summers with. vaughn benimon? the loss of the players you are putting down did mean we have had very little depth coming off the bench and have only been able to go at most 5-7 deep. the drop off from #5 to #7 or even #6 has been substantial at times. but not to get off topic, what i am proposing is that the failure of so many players may be a sign of something, at the very least the difficulty identifying players that will be able to not fail. consider if so many players had to leave early because of academic problems, then i think no one would deny that we would have to be more considerate in considering the academic aptitude of our recruits. same goes here. im saying that the princeton seems a more demanding, less forgiving system as far as recruiting goes. Actually you're going at the wrong guy--I was/am a supporter of Macklin--but I also saw him play before he entered Georgetown--and he had no offensive game whatsoever and it's why I liked idea of getting him--he was not going to be 1/done because he wasn't good enough. Georgetown helped his offensive game a great deal. He left due to internal reasons. Summers left to go to the NBA--which you think he's going to be a solid player--so aren't you against your other argument? You are a TROLL--who likes to bash/trash when the program is down--and don't say a damn thing when things are going well. Was the "system" too difficult to figure out when the team was winning games? Roster attrition happens for various reasons--playing time is there to be earned--it's just that a lot of kids don't want to expand on their game/work hard enough to do what is asked. Again--which guy that left would've been a huge difference maker on this past year's team? I already said Macklin-which you obviously ignored reading. Rivers? He would have had to improve his jumpshot--and for a kid who "bashed the system" it's got to be pointed out he played in same system in high school, and pointed that out as an attraction to Georgetown when he committed. So now it's a detriment? Thornton, Spann, and Wattad are role players who chose to go elsewhere for playing time or thought their role should be expanded and moved on. That happens everywhere, no matter what system. Summers left to NBA--and you and others think he's going to be fine/smart to do so. Hopefully he's a First Round pick--which would make 3 years straight of Georgetown producing a #1 pick. So a guy leaves to NBA early--and that's a bad thing against the system? If you don't like how things are done at Georgetown--there are several other schools to support. if you think the system holds players back--and you have yet to bring up any real examples of "NBA Scouts/GM's or players" who bashed it. I just notice it seems to work for those who put in the necessary work to improve their game (Green, Hibbert, PE JR,) and that goes for any player/any system. Again-you ever see Georgetown practice? You ever sat in on what III tells the team/players what he expects them to work on in offseason? I know I haven't-so I don't have any answer other then what has been proven and said by the players themselves. Didn't Dajuan mention that "Coach really wanted to have us in great shape because we're going to run/push it more" prior to season? Well that supposedly fit to what he wanted--and you saw how easily things fell apart due to the lack of good passing/ball handling on this team, and the lack of basketball IQ in terms of exploiting mismatches. Basketball is a simple game--you move the ball, go inside/out, and play together on both ends of court. Only time it gets messed up--when guys don't like/accept the role they are given or have not done what is necessary individually to be accountable in the role envisioned for them. You can help a player a lot more when he stays in town in offseason by checking on his progress then when he's jet-setting and trying to "Showcase" his NBA skills at Camps. Again--it's a TROLL post. You continue to fire misguided shots with no facts backing up anything--and you attack those who defend the program that have pointed out numerous things that back up what they are saying. Maybe you are depressed that you can't contribute anything other then Latavious Williams garbage posts? I don't know--but a player is responsible for doing what he is asked--in offseason/inseason and if they choose to ignore that, then coaches have to do what is best for sake of program. III admitted last year was his toughest as a Coach--(not at Georgetown--in all of his years coaching) so that says a helluva lot more then "is the system holding back players".
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 2, 2009 9:54:29 GMT -5
Aside from the arguments about the PO - does the coach have any responsibilty for lack of chemistry and leadership? If everything is on the players in last year's fiasco - when and where does the coach bear responsibility if any? Of course the coaching staff has some responsibility. But the amount is pretty hard for any of us to determine, no?
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,920
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Post by Filo on Jun 2, 2009 10:03:07 GMT -5
Aside from the arguments about the PO - does the coach have any responsibilty for lack of chemistry and leadership? If everything is on the players in last year's fiasco - when and where does the coach bear responsibility if any? Of course the coaching staff has some responsibility. But the amount is pretty hard for any of us to determine, no? And I don't think JTIII and the staff have gotten a free pass at all. There has been a ton of blame layed at JTII's feet. Many will agree that he had a bad year, but are optimistic that it was a great learning experience for him.
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Post by bicentennial on Jun 2, 2009 10:03:31 GMT -5
I agree with SFHoya99 that the staff plays a role. The most important question for III is did any of his assistant coaches contribute to the chemistry problems? The 3 point shooting seemed less consistent than years past. It is nice to lay this entirely on Wallace and his ice water blood but no one on the team was able last year to make clutch 3 point shots when most needed. Was this the work of one assistant coach or are all coaches responsible for working on shooting dynamics? There have been hints that one or more of the assistant coaches may be leaving and that may be a clue. Remember the assistant coaches that left after the final four have both had relatively significant success thus far and I see no indication that the new assistants have the same skill sets as the previous assistants. Part of coaching is motivating players to be at their best when most needed when games are close. Obviously with his cool demeanor III is not a stir up the player during the game coach. Still, the appropriate words from an assistant encouraging the best shooters to make the shot can sometimes help focus the appropriate shooters to take the shot instead of the wrong players...
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,652
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Post by guru on Jun 2, 2009 10:12:18 GMT -5
Of course the coaching staff has some responsibility. But the amount is pretty hard for any of us to determine, no? And I don't think JTIII and the staff have gotten a free pass at all. There has been a ton of blame layed at JTII's feet. Many will agree that he had a bad year, but are optimistic that it was a great learning experience for him. It's absurd to suggest that the coaches got a free pass for last season's debacle. I think not reaching the NCAAs with the talent that was on that roster is nearly inexcusable, and JTIII clearly lost the team in the wake of the mid-January stretch that started with Duke. BUT the players let themselves down too. I can't recall a Georgetown team that made so many stupid mistakes, that was so clearly unfocused so often, and ultimately didn't seem to care all that much. There was blame everywhere, but given his prior results I'm willing to give our coach the benefit of the doubt heading into the new season, and hoping that the players have the requisite pride to want to erase the stench of last season.
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Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
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Post by Buckets on Jun 2, 2009 10:16:27 GMT -5
I agree with SFHoya99 that the staff plays a role. The most important question for III is did any of his assistant coaches contribute to the chemistry problems? The 3 point shooting seemed less consistent than years past. It is nice to lay this entirely on Wallace and his ice water blood but no one on the team was able last year to make clutch 3 point shots when most needed. Was this the work of one assistant coach or are all coaches responsible for working on shooting dynamics? There have been hints that one or more of the assistant coaches may be leaving and that may be a clue. Remember the assistant coaches that left after the final four have both had relatively significant success thus far and I see no indication that the new assistants have the same skill sets as the previous assistants. Part of coaching is motivating players to be at their best when most needed when games are close. Obviously with his cool demeanor III is not a stir up the player during the game coach. Still, the appropriate words from an assistant encouraging the best shooters to make the shot can sometimes help focus the appropriate shooters to take the shot instead of the wrong players... When you have a big man that commands a double team and can pass out of the post, that opens up a lot of things. Roy did that, Greg did not. You didn't need to double team Monroe because he often looked to pass too much. If he gets better and more aggressive, everyone's three-point shooting should improve accordingly.
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HoyaSox04
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Founding member of the ROCK-tavius Spann Fan Club.
Posts: 726
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Post by HoyaSox04 on Jun 2, 2009 10:33:27 GMT -5
boy you are defensive. i would say so many transfers are an indication of something. macklin was an especially big loss and likely cost us an ncaa bid. (yes i know you disagree and it makes your blood boil to even suggest it.) doesnt seem summers leaving is all roses either. who exactly is the "better talent" that we were replacing macklin and summers with. vaughn benimon? the loss of the players you are putting down did mean we have had very little depth coming off the bench and have only been able to go at most 5-7 deep. the drop off from #5 to #7 or even #6 has been substantial at times. but not to get off topic, what i am proposing is that the failure of so many players may be a sign of something, at the very least the difficulty identifying players that will be able to not fail. consider if so many players had to leave early because of academic problems, then i think no one would deny that we would have to be more considerate in considering the academic aptitude of our recruits. same goes here. im saying that the princeton seems a more demanding, less forgiving system as far as recruiting goes. Actually you're going at the wrong guy--I was/am a supporter of Macklin--but I also saw him play before he entered Georgetown--and he had no offensive game whatsoever and it's why I liked idea of getting him--he was not going to be 1/done because he wasn't good enough. Georgetown helped his offensive game a great deal. He left due to internal reasons. Summers left to go to the NBA--which you think he's going to be a solid player--so aren't you against your other argument? You are a TROLL--who likes to bash/trash when the program is down--and don't say a damn thing when things are going well. Was the "system" too difficult to figure out when the team was winning games? Roster attrition happens for various reasons--playing time is there to be earned--it's just that a lot of kids don't want to expand on their game/work hard enough to do what is asked. Again--which guy that left would've been a huge difference maker on this past year's team? I already said Macklin-which you obviously ignored reading. Rivers? He would have had to improve his jumpshot--and for a kid who "bashed the system" it's got to be pointed out he played in same system in high school, and pointed that out as an attraction to Georgetown when he committed. So now it's a detriment? Thornton, Spann, and Wattad are role players who chose to go elsewhere for playing time or thought their role should be expanded and moved on. That happens everywhere, no matter what system. Summers left to NBA--and you and others think he's going to be fine/smart to do so. Hopefully he's a First Round pick--which would make 3 years straight of Georgetown producing a #1 pick. So a guy leaves to NBA early--and that's a bad thing against the system? If you don't like how things are done at Georgetown--there are several other schools to support. if you think the system holds players back--and you have yet to bring up any real examples of "NBA Scouts/GM's or players" who bashed it. I just notice it seems to work for those who put in the necessary work to improve their game (Green, Hibbert, PE JR,) and that goes for any player/any system. Again-you ever see Georgetown practice? You ever sat in on what III tells the team/players what he expects them to work on in offseason? I know I haven't-so I don't have any answer other then what has been proven and said by the players themselves. Didn't Dajuan mention that "Coach really wanted to have us in great shape because we're going to run/push it more" prior to season? Well that supposedly fit to what he wanted--and you saw how easily things fell apart due to the lack of good passing/ball handling on this team, and the lack of basketball IQ in terms of exploiting mismatches. Basketball is a simple game--you move the ball, go inside/out, and play together on both ends of court. Only time it gets messed up--when guys don't like/accept the role they are given or have not done what is necessary individually to be accountable in the role envisioned for them. You can help a player a lot more when he stays in town in offseason by checking on his progress then when he's jet-setting and trying to "Showcase" his NBA skills at Camps. Again--it's a TROLL post. You continue to fire misguided shots with no facts backing up anything--and you attack those who defend the program that have pointed out numerous things that back up what they are saying. Maybe you are depressed that you can't contribute anything other then Latavious Williams garbage posts? I don't know--but a player is responsible for doing what he is asked--in offseason/inseason and if they choose to ignore that, then coaches have to do what is best for sake of program. III admitted last year was his toughest as a Coach--(not at Georgetown--in all of his years coaching) so that says a helluva lot more then "is the system holding back players". But... but... but... but RDF, don't you think that Anthony McClain would have been the answer to all this team's problems last year? C'mon, that's what Pope told me! He and his 2 PPG and 0.8 RPG would have been such an asset to this team and the frontcourt!
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Post by tpk3 on Jun 2, 2009 10:47:37 GMT -5
Pope has reached biggest troll on the board status. In a situation like this the question becomes, what would Biggie McClain do. We all know where this thread is going just like every thread involving Pope, so might as well lock this garbage up too.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 31,997
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Post by DanMcQ on Jun 2, 2009 11:25:43 GMT -5
MOD NOTE:
Confine discussion to the basketball topic of the thread. This does not include your opinion of other posters. Such off-topic posts run the risk of deletion.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,434
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Post by hoyarooter on Jun 2, 2009 11:59:47 GMT -5
I say that Pope is either showing Chicken Little tendencies or prescient - and we'll know better after this coming season. If the team goes down in flames again, it will be clear that significant adjustments need to be made. But I believe most of us are willing to give the staff a mulligan for one bad season due to past success. That doesn't mean the staff wasn't in good part responsible for last year's debacle - Lord knows we have been through that ad naseum.
As for transfers, I think only Egerson would have made a major difference in last year's team, and his transfer was for personal reasons that the staff had absolutely no control over.
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PopeJohn2
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
Posts: 1,465
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Jun 2, 2009 17:20:27 GMT -5
Wow what lovely examples of poster on poster crime!
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HoyaNyr320
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,233
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Jun 2, 2009 20:12:21 GMT -5
Wow what lovely examples of poster on poster crime! Based on your signature line, you're a pessimist about the economy too. Is there anything you are actually optimistic about? Maybe it would be a good idea for all of us to sell our money for gold, stock up on supplies and invite Biggie McClain over. Edited severely.. hopefully enough to keep this post from being deleted!
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jun 2, 2009 21:49:20 GMT -5
seriously: Pope John = cash for gold .com
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PopeJohn2
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
Posts: 1,465
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Jun 2, 2009 22:42:10 GMT -5
and you attack those who defend the program that have pointed out numerous things that back up what they are saying. correction, i pushed back against those that unfairly bashed summers for 5 pages. big difference. furthermore, if there is any attacking going on it would be against anyone on this board who dare suggest or question anything having to do with the program. by your rules, its ok to attack players but to question the direction of the program is trolling. do you really not see the double standard?
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jun 2, 2009 23:10:25 GMT -5
and you attack those who defend the program that have pointed out numerous things that back up what they are saying. correction, i pushed back against those that unfairly bashed summers for 5 pages. big difference. furthermore, if there is any attacking going on it would be against anyone on this board who dare suggest or question anything having to do with the program. by your rules, its ok to attack players but to question the direction of the program is trolling. do you really not see the double standard? No you are trolling because you simply post to be argumentative regardless of the thread topic. See your ridiculous post in the Latavius thread.
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