Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Apr 17, 2009 9:54:39 GMT -5
And today, Boeheim is quoted in our paper that "I've known pretty much for awhile" that Flynn is gone. This whole SU situation is Example A of how NOT to handle the reporting of player decisions. I know in other threads that people have had a hard time with the Wattad transfer talk and when it was allowed.....however, seeing the debacle in Syracuse makes me think it's not such a bad idea to keep things quiet until something is official. As an aside, I love how Boeheim talks about how he thinks Flynn will be great in the NBA......how many "great" players has Boeheim sent to the NBA over his career? And I don't really count Carmelo, as SU was just a pit stop for him. I still never see why more isn't made of the fact that very few if any truly great NBA players have come from Boeheim......not too many other "big time" programs have a worse NBA track record for all-star level players, at least that would be my guess. If I'm a player with sights on the NBA.....why go there? Sorry for the rant.....it's the off-season, no recruit news yet and my SU hatred is still in top form!
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 17, 2009 10:12:32 GMT -5
You could argue that Rony Seikaly and Derrick Coleman had pretty good NBA careers. No, I wouldn't call either of them "great" by any stretch, especially Seikaly. And, even with some good early seasons, Coleman certainly wasn't great considering he was the #1 overall pick.
Other than that, I can't think of anyone really.
I am a little surprised Hakeem Warrick hasn't done better, but I guess he can't play any defense (surprise, surprise).
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 17, 2009 10:28:15 GMT -5
I'm not even sure you can call Carmelo "great". What exactly has he done to deserve that label? He hasn't even won a playoff series yet
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Apr 17, 2009 11:16:26 GMT -5
Carmelo's a great player. He's one of the top five three's in the league. Is he truly elite? No. But he's great.
And yes, you have to count Carmelo. SU wasn't a "pit stop". He dominated college basketball that year and won a title. He's a Syracuse player, a Boeheim player, dislike him all you want. We wouldn't say that Georgetown was a "pit stop" for Greg if he had left, would we?
Coleman was a great player, and Seikaly was very solid, as was Billy Owens for a few years
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Apr 17, 2009 12:12:27 GMT -5
Carmelo's a great player. He's one of the top five three's in the league. Is he truly elite? No. But he's great. And yes, you have to count Carmelo. SU wasn't a "pit stop". He dominated college basketball that year and won a title. He's a Syracuse player, a Boeheim player, dislike him all you want. We wouldn't say that Georgetown was a "pit stop" for Greg if he had left, would we? Coleman was a great player, and Seikaly was very solid, as was Billy Owens for a few years So you are saying that Boeheim did something for Carmelo to make him more successful in the NBA than he would have had he come right out of HS? As much as I like Greg, he is much farther from being NBA ready than Carmelo was coming out of HS. Carmelo dominated college basketball as a freshman and then went into the NBA where he continues to do the same.....at least as a scorer. If Greg were to have come to GU, dominated in a similar fashion and then went to the NBA......I would say the same. The only thing Boeheim did was somehow convince Carmelo to come to SU for 1 season.......Carmelo would be exactly where he is now had he gone to the NBA right out of HS. All he would be missing is an NCAA championship. Coleman is probably the best NBA player to come from Boeheim and he is still probably one of the biggest under-achievers the league has seen. Seikaly was solid and there have been a few other solid players produced by SU in Boeheim's tenure, but for a HOF coach on a team that has consistently won 20+ games year in and year out, you would think there would be one player that came out of the school over the past 25-30 years on the level of players that have come from Georgetown, UNC, UConn, etc. When Derrick Coleman, Rony Seikaly and Billy Owens are the best you can bring to the table......that's a pretty unimpressive table. My point was that Boeheim has done little to nothing to develop start NBA players through his career.......that was the case with Carmelo in that Carmelo would have been a star with or without college basketball. Something that I never hear anyone talk about with SU and Boeheim and it bothers me that none of the "talking heads" ever question it.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Apr 17, 2009 12:22:36 GMT -5
Highsmith, I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.
We know that Boeheim's not that good a coach. We know that he's had tons of talent, and we know that it hasn't developed into great NBA talent.
But the fact is, Carmelo played at Syracuse, even if it were for a year. Yes, maybe Boeheim did nothing but convince Melo to go to syracuse. But recruiting, at the college level, is a part of coaching. So If we count Billy Owens as a failure because he was a two five guy who never went on to star in the league, we have to count Melo, who was a top five guy, played at Cuse, won a title and went on to star in the league. You can't take away from the man, but omit his success....his one success. He's got every right to claim Melo, just like Calipari has every right to claim Derrick Rose, or Tim Floyd has every right to claim OJ Mayo
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 17, 2009 12:25:59 GMT -5
I think at this point, it's fair to note that, during his time at Syracuse, Rony Seikaly's nickname for his head coach was "The Idiot."
I have this on pretty good authority, but go ahead. Ask him if you see him.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 17, 2009 12:33:43 GMT -5
I don't think Boeheim is putting "Development of Derrick Coleman" anywhere on his resume.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 17, 2009 12:35:14 GMT -5
We all forgot Gerry Mac. Isn't he starring in the Burger King league?
I'll also give Boheem credit for Dave Bing, since they were backcourt mates. ;D
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 17, 2009 12:48:32 GMT -5
We all forgot Gerry Mac. Isn't he starring in the Burger King league? I'll also give Boheem credit for Dave Bing, since they were backcourt mates. ;D his team in the burger king league wouldnt have won 10 freaking games if not for him though 10!
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 17, 2009 13:05:03 GMT -5
Does any school, save perhaps Duke, have a better "Flop five" than Coleman, Owens, Pearl, Seikaly and Moten?
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Apr 17, 2009 13:35:05 GMT -5
And Fat Sherman as the 6th man!
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Apr 17, 2009 14:02:27 GMT -5
Sherman was a very good pro.....
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 17, 2009 14:28:10 GMT -5
Is it Boehiem's job to develop NBA players or to win basketball games at the college level?
He is a college basketball coach.
Boeheim team's usually consist of that one true star (Pearl, Coleman, Melo, Wallace, Moten, Flynn) , surrournded by a mix of role players and some good but not great players. Let's not confuse Syracuse with UNC's stacked team's over the past 20 years.
Carmelo would have been a star regardless. But i think he learned a lot going to Syracuse for one year. He has actually regressed since he has come into the league. he was a mutlifacited player in Syracuse. He has become a one-dimensional player, .ie. scorer in the NBA.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 17, 2009 14:33:21 GMT -5
What about his team that had Coleman, Owens and Douglas? Those three hounds were all lauded as stars. If you put a bowl on the floor they'd eat from it...
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 17, 2009 14:37:39 GMT -5
What about his team that had Coleman, Owens and Douglas? Those three hounds were all lauded as stars. If you put a bowl on the floor they'd eat from it... Douglas was a good not great player. Coleman and Owens was the closest Boheim had to a "stacked" team. And we saw how "great" Owens was once he got into the league. Same with Moten. Same with John Wallace. And its going to be the same thing with Flynn.
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Apr 17, 2009 14:55:30 GMT -5
While it is Boeheim's job to win college games, it also seems like he would need to show a level of success at developing NBA players. We have numerous threads on this board talking about the level of talent JTIII is/has been recruiting and whether top-notch talent will come here. It seems to me that most of that discussion is based around the players JTIII has successfully sent off to the NBA. How many times do we see/hear--"Come to Georgetown as a 'big man' and leave a millionaire". Boeheim on the other hand basically has "Come to SU as a highly rated freshman and leave as an NBA bust", yet he continues to get top talent to come there. Again, if you are a player who has aspirations of becoming an NBAer......why choose SU when there are so few examples of star NBA players coming from Boeheim, especially considering the length of his career.
Sherman was a solid pro with only about 2 really good years.....maybe 3. As a guy who is considered one of the best ever at SU, that's not impressive. I am thinking of the "all-time greats" at SU while Boeheim has been there and over 30 or so years, I'll be generous and give you 2 that even came close to living up to their college careers......Coleman and Anthony. Maybe Seikaly, as he had a solid career. No one else I can think of has developed into an NBA player even close to the level they were coming into SU or as a player there.......many never even made it--Gerry Mac and Preston Shumpert are two I can think of now. Pretty much any other high level college program, especially ones with HOF level coaches have a numberof players that have gone on to live up to expectations, another group that surpassed expectations and a few guys who stuck around as decent pros that would surprise you.....
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 17, 2009 15:06:18 GMT -5
Maybe it says Boeheim is a pretty good coach to be as successful as he has with so few who were NBA-capable.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 17, 2009 15:11:36 GMT -5
While it is Boeheim's job to win college games, it also seems like he would need to show a level of success at developing NBA players. We have numerous threads on this board talking about the level of talent JTIII is/has been recruiting and whether top-notch talent will come here. It seems to me that most of that discussion is based around the players JTIII has successfully sent off to the NBA. How many times do we see/hear--"Come to Georgetown as a 'big man' and leave a millionaire". Boeheim on the other hand basically has "Come to SU as a highly rated freshman and leave as an NBA bust", yet he continues to get top talent to come there. Again, if you are a player who has aspirations of becoming an NBAer......why choose SU when there are so few examples of star NBA players coming from Boeheim, especially considering the length of his career. Sherman was a solid pro with only about 2 really good years.....maybe 3. As a guy who is considered one of the best ever at SU, that's not impressive. I am thinking of the "all-time greats" at SU while Boeheim has been there and over 30 or so years, I'll be generous and give you 2 that even came close to living up to their college careers......Coleman and Anthony. Maybe Seikaly, as he had a solid career. No one else I can think of has developed into an NBA player even close to the level they were coming into SU or as a player there.......many never even made it--Gerry Mac and Preston Shumpert are two I can think of now. Pretty much any other high level college program, especially ones with HOF level coaches have a numberof players that have gone on to live up to expectations, another group that surpassed expectations and a few guys who stuck around as decent pros that would surprise you..... I don't understand the issue here though. Boheim still recruits well. He still wins. Aside from Derrick Coleman, who really underachieved in the pros from Syracuse? Maybe Boeheim recruits role players, good players, and a few great players in college, and only won with a select-few players who were legit NBA talents (Coleman and Melo) and not just NBA journey-man and also-rans. Like i said, its not like the same # of talented players on the level of Dean Smith, and they became busts once they went into the NBA. Billy Owens probably is the only one that fits that description. Coleman had a solid career, just not the career he should have had with all of his talent.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 17, 2009 15:14:21 GMT -5
Maybe it says Boeheim is a pretty good coach to be as successful as he has with so few who were NBA-capable. I think it says different things for different people. I think the DC teams underacheived. But let's face it, Coleman underacheived under every coach he's ever played for. Owens was one of those versatile guys that are continually overrated. But still, those teams should have done better. But he's obviously had good coaching jobs and bad ones. The recent years haven't been good at all. Out of Harris, Devedorf, Flynn and Greene, he got one tournament appearance our of 9 player seasons of McD AAs performance.
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