Home Schooling

[strummer8526]

This was the first news story I saw while channel surfing this morning.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509687,00.html

I'm curious: Does anyone here support home schooling? Obviously, there ARE exceptions to this, but generally speaking, I think home schooling creates fairly warped, socially inept kids who can be indoctrinated 24 hours a day by parents with extreme beliefs.* Or even worse, it allows kids to go "unschooled" entirely with dangerously unqualified parents playing with the kids and calling it "school." I know people often point to things like the National Spelling Bee (or "Freaks on Parade") to argue that some kids can thrive in home schooling. But while they seem to thrive at spelling when they're 11 years old, I can't think of anyone of national prominence who was home schooled. Please don't respond with "Abe Lincoln." I'm talking about the last 25–50 years.

I'm also curious whether our responses will follow the usual political divisions and why that is. Some part of me imagines that a strong conservative could agree with the idea that it's a tough world out there, so kids need to get out into it, get exposed, and learn to compete.


"Extreme beliefs" not being affiliated with any particular view/position, or even subject-matter. I would take issue with extreme liberal parents home schooling the same as conservative, secular or religious, etc.

[TBird41]

Mar 19, 2009 7:19:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

This was the first news story I saw while channel surfing this morning.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509687,00.html

I'm curious: Does anyone here support home schooling? Obviously, there ARE exceptions to this, but generally speaking, I think home schooling creates fairly warped, socially inept kids who can be indoctrinated 24 hours a day by parents with extreme beliefs.* Or even worse, it allows kids to go "unschooled" entirely with dangerously unqualified parents playing with the kids and calling it "school." I know people often point to things like the National Spelling Bee (or "Freaks on Parade") to argue that some kids can thrive in home schooling. But while they seem to thrive at spelling when they're 11 years old, I can't think of anyone of national prominence who was home schooled. Please don't respond with "Abe Lincoln." I'm talking about the last 25–50 years.

I'm also curious whether our responses will follow the usual political divisions and why that is. Some part of me imagines that a strong conservative could agree with the idea that it's a tough world out there, so kids need to get out into it, get exposed, and learn to compete.


"Extreme beliefs" not being affiliated with any particular view/position, or even subject-matter. I would take issue with extreme liberal parents home schooling the same as conservative, secular or religious, etc.

Why is "national prominence" the test for whether home schooling is a viable way to educate kids?

[Boz]

I can't see home schooling as making students any more socially inept than, say, forcing them to go to an all boys Jesuit high school......

.....DAMN YOU PARENTS!!!!

But seriously though, this seems pretty anecdotal and based on a personal opinion. Are there any statistics you know of that cite home schooling as being an underlying cause of failure later in life?

No, I can't think of any prominent politicians who were home schooled. But I don't think we should use elected officials as a benchmark, given how whacked out a lot of them seem to be. I'd be interested to see how home schooled students are doing later in fields like medicine, law, education, business, etc.

As for this particular story, this judge is an idiot. I don't know all the facts, but from the report, I didn't see anything here justifying a real danger to the kids at home. Secondly, does he really think that by forcing the children into public school, he is going to stop the mother from teaching her children her own religious beliefs? I will grant, I know nothing aout Sound Doctrine -- they may very well be perfectly fine or complete nutbars, but that is bordering on irrelevant in this case. There seems to be a lot of hearsay testimony about their cultishness, but I don't see any hard evidence that this church posed a danger to the children. If that can be demonstrated, I would certainly feel differently.

[strummer8526]

National prominence may not be the best measure of success. But I've just never heard of anyone successful in any field being home schooled. Granted, I've never heard of most (or any) accomplished scientists. There are definitely fields that I would not know anything about its most successful or productive members—which is part of why I asked. Is there any area where you've thought: Wow, seems like he/she (anyone) really did/would have benefited from being taught by his/her parents?

My point very much was anecdotal and my own opinion. That's why I said "I think" and phrased it as a question. Wikipedia also doesn't have any stats, so to the extent that checking Wikipedia counts as "research" (which is not at all), my research has not turned up any stats.

In terms of this specific case, it does seem odd because my first thought was: If this mother's beliefs pose a threat, why does she have custody? It seems like if home schooling is 100% legal, and her religion is not so dangerous as to take custody from her, then how does the conflation of the two result in a problem? I guess I just take issue w/ that first premise: the legality or justifications for home schooling.

[TC]

Mar 19, 2009 8:36:32 GMT -5 Boz said:

I can't see home schooling as making students any more socially inept than, say, forcing them to go to an all boys Jesuit high school......

.....DAMN YOU PARENTS!!!!

Good point. *Shakes fist at parents*

That said, any Church/Cult named "Sound Doctrine" probably is the opposite of how it is titled.

Adam Carolla was home schooled. He rails against it.

[Bando]

Mar 19, 2009 7:19:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

This was the first news story I saw while channel surfing this morning.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509687,00.html

I'm curious: Does anyone here support home schooling? Obviously, there ARE exceptions to this, but generally speaking, I think home schooling creates fairly warped, socially inept kids who can be indoctrinated 24 hours a day by parents with extreme beliefs.* Or even worse, it allows kids to go "unschooled" entirely with dangerously unqualified parents playing with the kids and calling it "school." I know people often point to things like the National Spelling Bee (or "Freaks on Parade") to argue that some kids can thrive in home schooling. But while they seem to thrive at spelling when they're 11 years old, I can't think of anyone of national prominence who was home schooled. Please don't respond with "Abe Lincoln." I'm talking about the last 25–50 years.

I'm also curious whether our responses will follow the usual political divisions and why that is. Some part of me imagines that a strong conservative could agree with the idea that it's a tough world out there, so kids need to get out into it, get exposed, and learn to compete.


"Extreme beliefs" not being affiliated with any particular view/position, or even subject-matter. I would take issue with extreme liberal parents home schooling the same as conservative, secular or religious, etc.

I have a friend who was home schooled and his parents are super-liberals, so I don't think it's always a straight-up political issue (they were both professors and thought they could do better, basically). He does blame his current social anxiety on home-schooling, but he does have friends and is engaged, so it's obviously not totally destroying him or anything.

Obviously, this is an anecdote and doesn't prove anything, I just thought it was relevant.

[Filo]

I'm with you, Strummer. I haven't seen any studies that show home-schooling as inherently good or bad (I haven't looked, either). But for me, it just doesn't pass the smell test. Again, just personal feelings on it, but why wouldn't parents want their kids to be out there with other kids for the socialization factor, alone.

I know it works for some kids, but I just don't get it.

[rosslynhoya]

I run out of fingers and toes when I try to add up all the extremely effed up products of a single-sex Catholic education I met at Georgetown, but I can't recall a single deviant malformed home-schooled kid.

Anecdotes rule!

My lack of knowledge >>> your lack of knowledge

[Boz]

I'm just saying, let's be careful not to go all South Park on the concept of homeschooling. (still a hilarious episode, by the way)

It's not as though there aren't social interaction options, and a great many of them, for children who are "in class" at home. It's not liked they're locked up at home 24 hours a day (and if they are, then, yes, I would support any judge who forces them to go to public school). When I was growing up, my best friends were not made in the classroom. They were made at playgrounds after school, in Little League (yes, I once played baseball...can you believe it??), in Boy Scouts, Pop Warner football and in midget hockey.

EDIT: I should also add CCD, even though I admit I hated going. It seems relevant in this case though, based on this Fox report. While I know organized religion is something that makes a lot of you nervous, lots of kids have plenty of social interaction through their church, and that's not a bad thing.

Frankly, even for children in public school, if your only social interaction with your peers is in the classroom, that's not what I would call high quality socialization in any case.

Anyway, a quick Google search found this study by the Home School Legal Defense Assn. Yes, I know, consider the source, but at least it's some data that might contradict the assumption that home schooling makes you a social misfit.

www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/Socialization.asp

[tgo]

i am completely shocked by the comments here. i would love to be able to home school my kids if only we could get by on one income. i for the life of me cant understand any parent with a college education who wouldnt especially from 5th to 9th grade when teachers in the best of schools have their hands full just trying to keep order. look at the overwhelming failure of so many of the public school systems across the country and ask yourself why you would subject your children to that when they could actually learn something at home while still going to the boys & girls club to hang out and play on sports teams and be in the band etc regardless. i could go on for pages about what is wrong with the public schools if i didnt have to get to work, i will try to come back later.

[Filo]

Mar 19, 2009 9:48:27 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

I run out of fingers and toes when I try to add up all the extremely effed up products of a single-sex Catholic education I met at Georgetown, but I can't recall a single deviant malformed home-schooled kid.

Anecdotes rule!

My lack of knowledge >>> your lack of knowledge

How many home-schooled kids did you know at GU and how many products of a single-sex Catholic education did you know?

Next time you want to cleverly mock some posts that were already admittedly lame because they were purely anecodotal, don't forget the clever part.

[strummer8526]

Mar 19, 2009 9:48:27 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

I run out of fingers and toes when I try to add up all the extremely effed up products of a single-sex Catholic education I met at Georgetown, but I can't recall a single deviant malformed home-schooled kid.

Anecdotes rule!

My lack of knowledge >>> your lack of knowledge

I actually consider my all-male La Sallian HS education to be one of the best things I've ever done. But a) I was not a life-long single-sex Catholic-schooler. I could see that being awful. And b) I can understand how a lot of guys who come out of such an environment might have very skewed and (in many cases) offensive views.

[jgalt]

Mar 19, 2009 7:19:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

But while they seem to thrive at spelling when they're 11 years old, I can't think of anyone of national prominence who was home schooled. Please don't respond with "Abe Lincoln." I'm talking about the last 25–50 years.

This isnt a fair way to judge the effect of home schooling. There are so few that the sample size is irrelevent. The other way of looking at it would be to say (equally un fair), "how many murderers were homeschooled?" probably not very many (for reasons that have little to nothing to do with home schooling vs public schooling).

Home schooling is good for some students. There is very good evidence that children with developmental disabilities who are placed in public school "special ed" classes end up never reaching their full potential. especially those with high functioning autism (aka asbergers) or mild down syndrome. There is even evidence that suggests not telling or even diagnosing these children prevents them from falling into stereotypes and they end up functioning at very similar level intellectually as other students.

It is also surprising that there is just as much anger about classes that are too big as there are about home schooling (would essentially be classes that are too small). The public school system in this country is crap except for a few counties (which tend to be affluent and a predominantly white). We only seem to hear about home schooled children who have been indoctrinated by there parents with some extreme view (i agree that this can be destructive) but that does not mean that every home schooler has been indoctrinated in this way. Only the indoctrination stories are interesting, and thus are the only one written about in the popular media.

Additionally there is that whole constitutional thing that allows parents to educate there kids how ever they see fit. I even think that it is unjust to require formal "education" for all children, but this is another discussion entirely.

The important thing to remember that home schooling is not inherently bad for children. And neither is public or private (uni sex or mixed) school. Different children learn in different ways. No one can ever make the perfect decision except for the kids, but parent are the next best thing and they have a right to do what ever they want as long as it doesnt directly harm the child.

[PDRHoya99]

Mar 19, 2009 9:15:52 GMT -5 TC said:

Adam Carolla was home schooled. He rails against it.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. He always talks about going to LA Unified and how much of a dump it was.

[TC]

Mar 19, 2009 11:48:09 GMT -5 PDRHoya99 said:

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. He always talks about going to LA Unified and how much of a dump it was.

I'm pretty sure this was before he went to LA Unified and was a Ceramics major - he was home schooled at some point by his hippie mom and he and his sister were able to learn whatever they want. I know he ranted about this at some point.

[hoyatables]

Fact: one of my classmates and friends at my T-10 law school was home-schooled, and he seemed just as smart and knowledgeable as anyone else. He's actually a great "shoot liberal stereotypes out of the water" - he's also an evangelical Christian and attended Bob Jones University.

[tgo]

Mar 19, 2009 7:19:33 GMT -5 strummer8526 said:

But while they seem to thrive at spelling when they're 11 years old, I can't think of anyone of national prominence who was home schooled. Please don't respond with "Abe Lincoln." I'm talking about the last 25–50 years.

Mar 19, 2009 11:40:51 GMT -5 jgalt said:

This isnt a fair way to judge the effect of home schooling. There are so few that the sample size is irrelevent.

exactly, by that argument anything with a small sample size can be proven to be wrong and evil.

Mar 19, 2009 11:40:51 GMT -5 jgalt said:

Home schooling is good for some students. There is very good evidence that children with developmental disabilities who are placed in public school "special ed" classes end up never reaching their full potential. especially those with high functioning autism (aka asbergers) or mild down syndrome.

Homeschooling is also a savior for many high achieving students. Countless studies have examined the differences in how people learn and how your mind works differently from others’ so of course a one size fits all approach to education leaves many people behind.

Many children are bored in school not just because of bad teachers or because of the amount of time taken up by classroom discipline for those who are acting out problems that started at home but also because it is too easy or slow moving for them, it is not uncommon for kids like this to get into drugs or other types of trouble and baring any of that, at the very least they are held back from reaching their potential.

[vcjack]

" look at the overwhelming failure of so many of the public school systems across the country and ask yourself why you would subject your children to that"

Its not a one way street with education. Failing schools are usually a combination of bad teachers and kids who come from families who don't value education. Communities that produce bad schools are not likely to be conducive to home schooling. Taking a kid out of school doesn't shield them from gangs and drugs if its a community issue.

However, at the next level between failing schools and quasi-private elite publics there are schools like the one I went to. Over half of my graduating class went to community college and a significant percentage got into gangs and drugs (including one of the stars of the basketball team who is now in prison for murdering his roommate). But the majority of us seem to be on a path for success, whether its the few of us who moved on to places like Georgetown or people like my best friend whose in training to become a police officer.

At the mid level of public schools, success seems to be more common than failure

[tgo]

Mar 19, 2009 17:11:15 GMT -5 vcjack said:

At the mid level of public schools, success seems to be more common than failure

sounds not too bad in the big picture, when its your child though that is not an acceptable level of risk if there is any way to avoid/diminish it.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Home schooling worked for Hifi, so it can't be all that bad.