swhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by swhoya on Mar 9, 2009 22:09:39 GMT -5
Perhaps I did have a bit too much sarcasm in my response. But as a guy who spent on his years on the Hilltop while Mr. Mustache was at the helm, I think it's HILARIOUS that after one down season that people are complaining we have recruited players that are just too talented for the system.
Wilbon said it in his column a few weeks ago--these kids knew what the system was coming in. They chose to come here, and they KNEW would they would be sacrificing in terms of personal statistics. For whatever reason, maybe it's inexperience and maybe it's something different, it just hasn't come together this season. But really, to say we should go after second-tier players, and know what their personalities were going to be like in college and how they would mesh, and how they would develop, is just ridiculous.
I loved Jeff and Jon and Roy and all of that group. No doubt, they were special. But if your expectation is that JTIII can get under-the-radar high school players and recreate that group again, well, you're going to be disappointed no matter what.
But I don't think these guys having oversized egos because they were accomplished high school players is the problem. Again, these guys could have gone to two dozen different top programs. They chose to come here because on some level they found something valuable in JTIII's system. Maybe you're just upset because they aren't the group that was so special, but that doesn't mean they're not willing to adopt III's system or sacrifice personal glory. As far as I'm concerned, every single one of them has already shown a degree of willingness to do that, just by coming here.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Mar 10, 2009 10:17:05 GMT -5
Just chiming in to say that this is a very informative and good discussion. I'm learning as I read it.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by the_way on Mar 10, 2009 11:10:52 GMT -5
That group was just special.
This group isn't. Thats not to say this current group won't develop into a good team. But its going to be hard for them to live up to the class of 2008's standard. As you can see, its happened already this year...the pressure...the team hasn't handled it well.
I had high hopes after the 2004-2005 season. You could see the potential with those guys. And you kinda new what you were getting with each player on that roster, including Jeff and Hibbert and Wallace. You knew Hibbert was going to improve. I mean, the guy could barley walk up and down the court, let alone run when he first came to g-town. the fact that he had transformed himself to get playing time his freshman year spoke to his work ethic and ability to improve. Jeff Green was special before he came to G-town. He had lead his team and won a state title his senior year. You could see he was destined for greatness. Wallace was that steady, smart kid he knew the offense from the start. He was always going to be a defensive liability but his other skills made up for it and didn't hurt the team.
With this current group you kinda know what you are getting and you kinda don't.
I think that this is the primary difference between the class of 2008 and this current group:
defined roles.
When you have a defined role, it makes life so much easier. You can grow and learn from that. You can build off of that. I think roles were established early with the class of 2008, and quite honestly, they all, amazingly, seemed to fit together at the onset. And the talented guys that were left over from the Esh regime (Cook, Bowman, Owens), fit righ into what JTIII was trying to do. Well, at least Cook and Owens did. Bowman was a little temperamental. But still, Brandon could play. He wasn't a fish out of water. Even Ak Diaw could give you spot minutes from the post-position, defensively in the paint or Ray Reed could come off the bench and be a defensive specialist.
The stars aligned for JTIII when he came here from a personnel standpoint. All he had to do was what he does best...coach X's and O's, and fundamentals, which this program and team needed badly for the previous 15 years.
In 2009, what the players do best don't help the team win. That is also a major difference. Guys are going to have to do 180's in their respective games and develop big time, if we expect to go the NCAA's in the future. The class of 2008 group just had to develop further.
I mean, you hear it all the time, "if only Wright could just be more like Wallace, "if only Dajuan developed ball-handling skills", " if only Greg was stronger down-low in the post", "if only Austin lost a lot of weight", "if only Sims could be good enough to start and/or get playing time". I mean, this isn't necessarily work on my game over the summer type issues. These guys were great at what they did being what they are. And the problem is, what they are isn't working.
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 10, 2009 12:54:45 GMT -5
Man that was insightful, it wasnt my intent on trying to compare the teams, your right that team was special. I hate doing that because the discussion can go on and on. But the reason I looked at those games again, I just wanted to see how the team had good spacing on the offensive end, I mean look at the Duke game how many backdoor cuts did we get, I stopped counting. All because of spacing and the guys ran hard and crisp cuts. I mean I think it is an attitude about the whole thing, pick up and listen, and discipline, and that is something I dont see form this group. How many players did you see take it to the basket. This is what I was focusing on, nothing was forced no errand shots in the selection to break the groove of the offense.
On the defense, the rotation was almost perfect everytime, guys switched, communicated, and as the main thing did this as a team. I just want to clarify what I said earlier, and it is no way intended for me to be saying that I want III to recruit guys who are not top tier. But I will say that I believe the program will be alot better off knowing a player is going to be here atleast 3 years. Now that is something you can build on, where as the situation where in now with Greg. Even though he says he is coming back, he may jump. And what did it get the Hoyas in return this year, without a strong run now in the BET we are going to the NIT.
So no I do not want the coach to go looking for and trying his best to beat out other coaches for top tier players as his main goal. Because as my over all message is that we do not need a bunch of superstars, we just need guys who are discipline and can execute the game plan. Thats what I'm speaking on, because once again you go back to this season, I remember the play, I do not remember who we were playing but CW was leading a fast break and Jessie was on his right side and he ignored him and took to the hoop on his own. CW did this during the next game also but was called for a charge because he didnt pass the ball, same situation same set of players. And after that things to me started to fall apart. I'm not saying that this is the problem, but I do feel that set of events put things in motion for what has followed during the course of the season. Just my 55 cents, WE ARE
GEORGETOWN
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 10, 2009 13:24:25 GMT -5
Air Jordan, you need superstars.
We had one in Jeff Green who lead us to a Big East tournament title and a Final Four.
But, back to your point, you also need a good blend, imo.
Right now, we gotta bunch of all-stars (Wright, Monroe, Freeman) and no great role players. Or we have guys who were role players in previous teams now having to be all-stars when in reality they are at best, complimentary players/role players (Sapp, Summers). And our role players aren't great, they are just young/green (Vaughn, Sims, Clark, Nikita) and a little over his head (Omar).
Now put all of those guys together, and its not surprising you have a dysfunctional unit, that can't seem to play together on either end of the court. Now we haven't even gotten into their individual games on how they fit into what we are trying to do.
the class of 2008 had a superstar (Jeff Green) who was a leader and selfless, good and selfless complimentary players (Hibbert, Wallace, Ewing, Jr.) and a great role player who barely played yet guys looked to him for leadership (Crawford). You get a bunch like that, and add young role and complimentary players like (Summers, Rivers, and Sapp), and its no wonder why we made it to the Final Four.
Again, we had a good blend of the type of player: superstars, complimentary players, and role players, defined roles and they all fit and bought into what Coach was trying to do offensively and defensively.
We really don't have any of that this year.
Next year will be very interesting. Will we grow, or is what we are seeing now, is what we are going to get?
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 10, 2009 13:32:05 GMT -5
Thats my worse nightmare that the team will not grow, there is really no change from this years team to next years team except the departure of Sapp and the incoming Hollis (TYLER IS REALLY HIGH ON). If the players do not learn their roles and everybody thinks they are a superstar we will be in a world of hurt. just hope III doesnt have a problem with benching some players to get his point across.
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 11, 2009 8:13:55 GMT -5
the_way, I agree with you mostly man, but I just do not feel we need superstars. We need guys who can execute and listen. And also be able to be coached, as a few posters have listed. After the Duke game our superstars became individuals, and as you know when you have individual play in a team sport this is what you come up with. I believe you do need floor leadership though but not to sold on superstars. Even during III's press conferance how many time sis he mention the word EXECUTE, or EXECUTION? I for one thinks we will turn it around, either with these guys or some other group, but trust JTIII learned something this year, you can believe that. EXECUTION is the name of the game man, you have to have it. And leave that hey look at me I scored 37 points and I'm on sports center's top 10 plays of the week mentality needs to take thet SH** back to the playground.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 11, 2009 8:25:22 GMT -5
the_way, I agree with you mostly man, but I just do not feel we need superstars. We need guys who can execute and listen. And also be able to be coached, as a few posters have listed. After the Duke game our superstars became individuals, and as you know when you have individual play in a team sport this is what you come up with. I believe you do need floor leadership though but not to sold on superstars. Even during III's press conferance how many time sis he mention the word EXECUTE, or EXECUTION? I for one thinks we will turn it around, either with these guys or some other group, but trust JTIII learned something this year, you can believe that. EXECUTION is the name of the game man, you have to have it. And leave that hey look at me I scored 37 points and I'm on sports center's top 10 plays of the week mentality needs to take thet SH** back to the playground. You need at least one superstar and one leader. Ideally, your best player should be your leader as well. A guy people can rally around and inspires his teammates. Look at all the teams that have won National titles, they have that. Even Gary Williams at Maryland....had Juan Dixon. He was the leader and best player on his team. He wasn't the most talented (Chris Wilcox was), but he was their go-to-guy and ultimate leader on the floor. Juan was a superstar on that team. He wasn't hyped or heralded as a superstar, but he was one. And that Terp team had great role players in Holden, Mouton, Nichols. And they had an NBA PG in Steve Blake, and a two-time Regional tournament MVP in Lonny Baxter. So it depends on what you mean by superstars. I get what you are saying. You want what JTIII had with the class of 2008 or what GAry Williams had with Lonny Baxter and Juan Dixon. But again, you need some superstar play (Jeff Green) and some super-star athletes (Chris Wilcox) on your squad to balance things out. I don't think the players are "hey, look at me players". I think they are just young in the mind and resort to their instincts which is score-first. Thats what they have done all of their lives. Its hard to change those habits. Especially when most of your team has that mentality. Guys simply don't know how to win. Only way to figure that out is losing and getting your lumps and making mistakes. thats what we did this year.
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 11, 2009 8:39:03 GMT -5
I agree with the lumps, we all took some lumps this year man. I'm not going to lie during the off season I remember telling my wife realistically I want the guys to do well but I think this is going to be a down season. I went on and on about the bench not that deep, things like that. BUt after we beat Conneticut on their floor I was like hold on, we may have something here, but the team is young, talented but young. And as you say the score first mentality is something that has to be addressed if progresss is to be made. Just like Micheal Jordan, he didnt win those championships by himself, he had to learn to share the ball with his role players. So yes I understand where your coming from, I sometimes think we have to many superstars, and they play as individuals, which inturn hurts the TEAM, WE ARE
GEORGETOWN
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Air Jordan
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As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Mar 11, 2009 8:45:49 GMT -5
And also someone said something about us not running the offense, because of the lack of backdoor cuts. Well coach said something about that back in December, we do not have good spacing on the offensive end. If we have two guys standing really close to one another, all you need to have is one defender between them and it nuetralizes your numbers. But with good spacing the defender will have to commit and we make the decision off the defenders commitment. But to many times the defender dictated to the offense and we made bad decisions with the ball. Espeically turning it over, WE ARE
GEORGETOWN
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robbyt
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Post by robbyt on Mar 11, 2009 10:50:28 GMT -5
The thing about the Class of 2008 in 2005 was that you could tell that Jeff and Roy were working on their low post footwork and practicing hook shots and working on their defensive positioning and that Wallace was figuring out exactly what his role was and what he should and should not do and that Crawford really was learning the offense so that when he got a chance he was the hardest cutter on the team. I haven't seen much sign that the current players are working on their game in the same way. Guys are accepting that they are shooters not drivers or drivers not shooters and no one wants to be the defensive stopper or the double figure rebounder even though those roles are there for the taking. The reason they haven't shown that is because they're not those players. We have 10 offense-first, face-up players. That's why I'm questioning that our offense looks like 2006-08 next year and not more like an ASU. I don't think the low-post set has to do with comfort with the offense as much as it does with us starting a 7'2 back-to-the-basket center and in two years a combo-forward who backed up Roy. We slid Jeff down to spell Roy much of the time because he could post too. I don't think it's buying in or being comfortable. I just think we don't have any low-post players or defensive stoppers on the roster. "I don't think it's buying in or being comfortable. I just think we don't have any low-post players or defensive stoppers on the roster. " Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's it. That is the root. We're playing 4 on 5 most of the time, and 1 on 2 in the paint. Monroe 6'10 and the ghost forward that is listed as "Summers" is 0'0" because he's nowhere to be found. It *is not fair* to Monroe to send him in to play 1 on 2. It is absolutely not fair.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 11, 2009 10:59:40 GMT -5
The reason they haven't shown that is because they're not those players. We have 10 offense-first, face-up players. That's why I'm questioning that our offense looks like 2006-08 next year and not more like an ASU. I don't think the low-post set has to do with comfort with the offense as much as it does with us starting a 7'2 back-to-the-basket center and in two years a combo-forward who backed up Roy. We slid Jeff down to spell Roy much of the time because he could post too. I don't think it's buying in or being comfortable. I just think we don't have any low-post players or defensive stoppers on the roster. "I don't think it's buying in or being comfortable. I just think we don't have any low-post players or defensive stoppers on the roster. " Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's it. That is the root. We're playing 4 on 5 most of the time, and 1 on 2 in the paint. Monroe 6'10 and the ghost forward that is listed as "Summers" is 0'0" because he's nowhere to be found. It *is not fair* to Monroe to send him in to play 1 on 2. It is absolutely not fair. We are actually playing 0 on 2 in the low post, which is what he is pointing out. Its not fair to Dajuan who actually played with guys who can play in the paint and with their back o the basket in Hibbert and Green. And now he plays with a guy who would rather pass the ball than shoot a high-percentage shot right under the basket in Monroe. Our low-post presence is completely non-existent. Monroe is the main culprit. Its why teams can just muscle their way in the post, and just waltz right in and score in the paint with ease.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 11, 2009 11:02:49 GMT -5
That group was just special. This group isn't. Thats not to say this current group won't develop into a good team. But its going to be hard for them to live up to the class of 2008's standard. As you can see, its happened already this year...the pressure...the team hasn't handled it well. I had high hopes after the 2004-2005 season. You could see the potential with those guys. And you kinda new what you were getting with each player on that roster, including Jeff and Hibbert and Wallace. You knew Hibbert was going to improve. I mean, the guy could barley walk up and down the court, let alone run when he first came to g-town. the fact that he had transformed himself to get playing time his freshman year spoke to his work ethic and ability to improve. Jeff Green was special before he came to G-town. He had lead his team and won a state title his senior year. You could see he was destined for greatness. Wallace was that steady, smart kid he knew the offense from the start. He was always going to be a defensive liability but his other skills made up for it and didn't hurt the team. With this current group you kinda know what you are getting and you kinda don't. I think that this is the primary difference between the class of 2008 and this current group: defined roles. When you have a defined role, it makes life so much easier. You can grow and learn from that. You can build off of that. I think roles were established early with the class of 2008, and quite honestly, they all, amazingly, seemed to fit together at the onset. And the talented guys that were left over from the Esh regime (Cook, Bowman, Owens), fit righ into what JTIII was trying to do. Well, at least Cook and Owens did. Bowman was a little temperamental. But still, Brandon could play. He wasn't a fish out of water. Even Ak Diaw could give you spot minutes from the post-position, defensively in the paint or Ray Reed could come off the bench and be a defensive specialist. The stars aligned for JTIII when he came here from a personnel standpoint. All he had to do was what he does best...coach X's and O's, and fundamentals, which this program and team needed badly for the previous 15 years. In 2009, what the players do best don't help the team win. That is also a major difference. Guys are going to have to do 180's in their respective games and develop big time, if we expect to go the NCAA's in the future. The class of 2008 group just had to develop further. I mean, you hear it all the time, "if only Wright could just be more like Wallace, "if only Dajuan developed ball-handling skills", " if only Greg was stronger down-low in the post", "if only Austin lost a lot of weight", "if only Sims could be good enough to start and/or get playing time". I mean, this isn't necessarily work on my game over the summer type issues. These guys were great at what they did being what they are. And the problem is, what they are isn't working. Way, I completely agree with your assertion that the guys on our teams need defined roles. I think most of the responsibility in that regard falls on the coaching staff for failing to define those roles from the get-go. But as far as leadership goes, defining those roles have to come from the players. Wright at times late in the season seemed as if he wanted to take the leadership role, but I sensed some resistance from the others that I hope will diminish by next year. I agree and disagree with certain points of the last part of your post. Some of them aren't "work on your game over the summer" type issues, but some of them are. No, Wright will probably never be as great a shooter as Wallace. Austin will probably never be the lightning-quick 215 pound slasher a lot of us want him to be. And Dajuan probably will never have great ball-handling skills. They could each marginally improve in each respective area, but no amount of gym time will make these wishes come true. Inherent talent does sometimes take over as the greatest factor. But the other points you make are "work on your game over the summer" type issues. Greg and Henry certainly can hit the weight room and get stronger between this season and next, and it will greatly enhance all the other aspects of their game. If Greg's low post game matures like I think it can with some added strength and an additional year of tutelage/experience, and Henry's increased bulk can improve his rebounding/defense/stamina, both those guys could be significantly better next year.
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