Bando
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Post by Bando on Dec 22, 2008 20:49:58 GMT -5
You're right, Tables, I'm conflating the government with preservationists, and the board of preservation in particular. I just find it crazy that there's any debate about the Church of Christ, Scientist, as the church itself wants to tear the building down.
I'm also afraid that soon preservationists are going to rush to preserve terrible ideas from the 1960's like the entire south side of Independence Avenue and the Labor Department. I agree that the city is generally on the right side of most of these issues, but we have to be alert to make sure failed experiments aren't preserved.
Sorta related, but Arlington's long term plan is to undo the Crystal City underground, no?
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 23, 2008 0:39:28 GMT -5
You're right, Tables, I'm conflating the government with preservationists, and the board of preservation in particular. I just find it crazy that there's any debate about the Church of Christ, Scientist, as the church itself wants to tear the building down. I'm also afraid that soon preservationists are going to rush to preserve terrible ideas from the 1960's like the entire south side of Independence Avenue and the Labor Department. I agree that the city is generally on the right side of most of these issues, but we have to be alert to make sure failed experiments aren't preserved. Sorta related, but Arlington's long term plan is to undo the Crystal City underground, no? I don't know if they are planning to undo CC underground or not. I do know they are planning lots of improvements at street level to liven things up. And as for south of Independence Ave -- don't look now, but Marcel Breuer's HUD building has already been designated as a landmark. Preserving Modern buildings like that has become the next great thing. The Washington Hilton was recently designated as a historic landmark as well - primarily based on its architect but also on its form.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Dec 23, 2008 0:40:04 GMT -5
I'd argue the Harbin/Village C imposing concrete "patio" also is a terrible use of space, as well as the Darnall parking lot (parking lots are always inefficient uses of space). I really have no idea re: the feasibility of this, but it seems as if every new project on campus should have underground parking a la the SW Quad (although the layout of that parking garage sucks). Besides money, is there any obstacle to building garages underneath the lots outside Darnall and McDonough and putting buildings above? BTW, campus maps might aid this discussion. Underground parking is VERY expensive. Like $40k-$50k a space.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Dec 23, 2008 2:13:27 GMT -5
There is no reason to build more buildings on campus when one of the oldest stands unused because no one seems to want to try to preserve it. I dont know exactly what it is called but that unused wing of Healy (not to mention the 5th floor of healy) is complete empty. I realize this is because it is dangerous. But if you are not going to try to preserve it, then tear it down to make space; Parking lots waste space, but empty buildings waste a hell of a lot more.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 23, 2008 12:36:38 GMT -5
There is no reason to build more buildings on campus when one of the oldest stands unused because no one seems to want to try to preserve it. I dont know exactly what it is called but that unused wing of Healy (not to mention the 5th floor of healy) is complete empty. I realize this is because it is dangerous. But if you are not going to try to preserve it, then tear it down to make space; Parking lots waste space, but empty buildings waste a hell of a lot more. Assuming you're talking about Gervase/Mulledy/Ryan and what area, basically the old JesRes, I agree. The space doesn't lend itself to anything in particular, a lot of it is tiny old dorm-type rooms that the Jesuits I guess used. But on a campus where space is at a premium, it's a loooot of real estate that is completely unused and almost forgotten about, and it's in a real prime location as well. It's also not JUST dorms, there are some bigger nicer rooms in there as well. There HAS to be SOME way to use that better, even if it's just renovated into some nicer/bigger offices for some of the faculty members who currently are stuck in a tiny office on 4th floor old north or whatevever. Our campus is just so hodgepodge, it's clearly cobbled together over a long period and not very well thought out. I don't blame anyone in particular for that fact because it's difficult to really be so forward thinking, but it's the truth. For instance, the Jesuit Cemetery right smack in the middle of everything. Or the big ugly powerplant building between McD and Yates. It always cracks me up when I watch The Exorcist and there used to be tennis courts where Village A is... I mean, who was coming up with these things? It was like, just randomly put whatever wherever. An interesting thought question I've had with people before is, if money and resources were not a factor, and you could remake Georgetown's campus anyway you wanted, a) what would you keep? and b) how would you restructure everything else? I tend to think that in remodeling the campus the best approach to take is to ask yourself that question and then work backwords to assemble it and to raise the money to do it. I for one certainly want more "green space". I think one of the most common things I hear from people about our campus is "it's a little too crowded." I don't think it's that bad but the fact that Healy/Copley lawn are really the only grassy areas to hang out at when it's nice, I can sort of see the point (excluding here spots like Village C Hill, the grass near the JesRes or the esplanade, all of which are smallish and not really what people are looking for in terms of open/green space). I also definitely think Lau and Reiss need a facelift at minimum. At best they need to be knocked down and replaced but since we don't have the ability to knock them down and build for a couple years on the same spot, they'd have to be replaced on a different plot of land, and we really don't have any. And even if we could do that, I'm not sure what'd go where Lau/Reiss are right now.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Dec 23, 2008 17:33:29 GMT -5
And as for south of Independence Ave -- don't look now, but Marcel Breuer's HUD building has already been designated as a landmark. Preserving Modern buildings like that has become the next great thing. The Washington Hilton was recently designated as a historic landmark as well - primarily based on its architect but also on its form. Nooooooooooo! Preservationists have now just moved up on the ol' enemies list. Also, I knew about the Hilton, and unfortunately people aren't able to distinguish between a building being historic and something historic happening at the building. The Hilton basically exists to say "See all that vitality and walkability you came from in Dupont Circle/Adams-Morgan? That ends here." I don't get the reverence of architects either. I mean, no one's perfect, not everyone can consistently produce gold. This sort of thinking is why the crappy DC Public Library isn't going anywhere.
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CWS
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Post by CWS on Dec 25, 2008 10:53:52 GMT -5
There is no reason to build more buildings on campus when one of the oldest stands unused because no one seems to want to try to preserve it. I dont know exactly what it is called but that unused wing of Healy (not to mention the 5th floor of healy) is complete empty. I realize this is because it is dangerous. But if you are not going to try to preserve it, then tear it down to make space; Parking lots waste space, but empty buildings waste a hell of a lot more. Assuming you're talking about Gervase/Mulledy/Ryan and what area, basically the old JesRes, I agree. The space doesn't lend itself to anything in particular, a lot of it is tiny old dorm-type rooms that the Jesuits I guess used. But on a campus where space is at a premium, it's a loooot of real estate that is completely unused and almost forgotten about, and it's in a real prime location as well. It's also not JUST dorms, there are some bigger nicer rooms in there as well. There HAS to be SOME way to use that better, even if it's just renovated into some nicer/bigger offices for some of the faculty members who currently are stuck in a tiny office on 4th floor old north or whatevever. Our campus is just so hodgepodge, it's clearly cobbled together over a long period and not very well thought out. I don't blame anyone in particular for that fact because it's difficult to really be so forward thinking, but it's the truth. For instance, the Jesuit Cemetery right smack in the middle of everything. Or the big ugly powerplant building between McD and Yates. It always cracks me up when I watch The Exorcist and there used to be tennis courts where Village A is... I mean, who was coming up with these things? It was like, just randomly put whatever wherever. An interesting thought question I've had with people before is, if money and resources were not a factor, and you could remake Georgetown's campus anyway you wanted, a) what would you keep? and b) how would you restructure everything else? I tend to think that in remodeling the campus the best approach to take is to ask yourself that question and then work backwords to assemble it and to raise the money to do it. I for one certainly want more "green space". I think one of the most common things I hear from people about our campus is "it's a little too crowded." I don't think it's that bad but the fact that Healy/Copley lawn are really the only grassy areas to hang out at when it's nice, I can sort of see the point (excluding here spots like Village C Hill, the grass near the JesRes or the esplanade, all of which are smallish and not really what people are looking for in terms of open/green space). I also definitely think Lau and Reiss need a facelift at minimum. At best they need to be knocked down and replaced but since we don't have the ability to knock them down and build for a couple years on the same spot, they'd have to be replaced on a different plot of land, and we really don't have any. And even if we could do that, I'm not sure what'd go where Lau/Reiss are right now. They haven't forgotten about the old Jes Res, but it's going to take a small mint to bring it up to code (just one example: the elevator is tiny, a 1940's style, with the interlacing grill-door that you have to manually pull closed before the elevator moves; I can't imagine what it will take just to re-do that elevator shaft). [As I understand it, they are required to bring everything up to code because most of that space was zoned as residential and now its use needs to change -- i.e., to office space. Somehow Gervaise has a loophole {or maybe it had already been brought up to code}, so the university is able to use that space, without major renovation]. And, of course, it's hard to fund-raise for renovation projects... they just don't generate enthusiasm.
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Post by saxacalhoya on Dec 26, 2008 0:02:01 GMT -5
CWS is absolutely correct. It is important for folks to look at the Old Jes Res as though it is condemned. Massive work has to occur to bring it up to code (starting with lead and asbestos removal). And there is no usable space on the "5th floor of Healy" when you account for egress and current building codes. As for future use of the Jes Res, I've heard President DeGioia and the university's architect describe it as becoming a future home to the humanities, bringing together all related departments and programs. Whether this is still the case I am unsure, but it would be a much better use than creating buildings based on individual schools. The campus is not that large and is near capacity for full-use. In essence the campus is a 104 acres and add to that another 104 acres to account for vertical space. With the shift of MSB faculty and staff from Old North this will re-shift existing faculty that are either doubled-up or have offices off campus. There is an increasing number of offices that are not located on campus (in fact, 80% of the offices for UIS and Advancement are located off-campus). Some of the spaces the University will focus on for the 2010 plan are the 36th block with Wisey's (look for a complete reconfiguration of that block for commercial purposes); the Poulton block, tennis courts (new practice facility); St. Mary's parking lot and Kehoe field (this doesn't include work not completed under the 2000 plan). Also, look for an important expansion at the Law Center. Here are some resources about the ongoing campus planing process: community.georgetown.edu/campusplan.html
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Dec 26, 2008 1:13:05 GMT -5
As the campus nears capacity (which we can all agree is now or with in say five years, no matter how well you plan further expansion without making the campus look like New York city) the obvious next step would be to cut off expansion of the student body. Does anyone know off hand what the university's plans are in terms of admissions?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Dec 26, 2008 11:12:27 GMT -5
As the campus nears capacity (which we can all agree is now or with in say five years, no matter how well you plan further expansion without making the campus look like New York city) the obvious next step would be to cut off expansion of the student body. Does anyone know off hand what the university's plans are in terms of admissions? Enrollment is capped by the 10 year plans as well, and increases in enrollment generally require approval of the various planning boards. Around the opening of the SWQ, Georgetown won approval to increase the student body by something like 500 undergrads, phased in over 4 years or so, but I believe that is nearly complete. Georgetown cannot add more students unless they add more housing, and none of the planning I have seen suggests any more residential space.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 26, 2008 11:38:35 GMT -5
Enrollment is capped by the 10 year plans as well, and increases in enrollment generally require approval of the various planning boards. Around the opening of the SWQ, Georgetown won approval to increase the student body by something like 500 undergrads, phased in over 4 years or so, but I believe that is nearly complete. Georgetown cannot add more students unless they add more housing, and none of the planning I have seen suggests any more residential space. Of course, they can add enrollment without the BZA or ANC, but it will take a step many are reluctant to make or speak about: add a new campus. No, not 2 acres in Arlington either: buy in Greenbelt, Leesburg, Frederick, wherever, but if Georgetown wants to grow beyond the legal tightropes placed around it in 20007, it needs to be looking elsewhere. That may be an uncomfortable thought, but GU need to stop letting the land sales pass them by as it has done for decades, buy some farms up the river, and put some roots down. And last I checked, the ANC has no jurisdiction in Brunswick, MD.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Dec 26, 2008 12:36:18 GMT -5
DFW, i have a hard time picturing a second campus like that. What would it be used for, what would be there, and how would the students use it?
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Post by saxacalhoya on Dec 28, 2008 2:53:00 GMT -5
Actually look for a significant battle over "students." Georgetown has been reluctant, and rather successful, in not defining what a student is, whereas, community activists (agitators) are looking to fight for this definition. There are some winds at the DC government that would like to see this occur as well. So when you look at our enrollment cap, what does student actually mean? We have been able to play a fluctuating game in that our numbers do not account for those studying abroad, which gives us flexibility in averaging fall and spring enrollment numbers to meet the mandated cap. Now factor in a new definition, especially one that takes into account night-time SCS/CPD students (which isn't the case now). It's unfortunate that many on this board underestimate the daily battles that the university undertakes to ensure continued operations and future growth. It took eight years to resolve the 2000 campus plan, so expect a battle to be waged again using newer technologies to gin up opposition to the moves of the university (unfortunately, there are a couple of folks out there committed to attacking the university at every chance). In fact, I encourage you to read some of the comments made by our neighbors at the open meeting hosted by the university (and this was intended to be a meeting that said, "hey, we're gonna start a new campus plan process and would love for you to be a partner in the effort). You'll start to see some of the battle lines being drawn: www.georgetown.edu/assets/community/documents/20081108_CommunityMeetingNotesI.pdfwww.georgetown.edu/assets/community/documents/20081108_CommunityMeetingNotesII.pdf
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 28, 2008 12:03:15 GMT -5
I really cannot for the life of me understand the general opposition to the University. It's constant and (from what I can tell) often totally baseless. The neighborhood opposes students walking around at night. They oppose a shuttle system. They oppose drinking establishments on campus. They oppose drinking off campus. They oppose buildings that aren't even visible unless you're on campus.
Where does this come from? Is it an anti-college thing? Anti-students? Anti-young people? Anti-Catholic? I just don't understand the basis for this hostility.
And I'm now looking at the PDF's above. What neighborhood in the world gets to bitch about delivery vehicles going up and down the streets?! These complaints are ludicrous. Really, I just can't figure out how it is any of this neighborhood's business whether we have an alcohol policy or add parking. If I don't like parking on my street (at home up in suburban NJ), I'm Edited out of luck. I don't get to complain about delivery trucks going to a nearby CVS. That's absurd. And it's not like most of the Georgetown neighbors have young kids trying to play out in the streets.
What Georgetown needs is some of its most powerful alums to start pushing back against a neighborhood that thinks it should have the upper hand on every issue.
Finally, for a good laugh, look at the second link, 6th page from the bottom: "CELL PHONE USERS ARE A PROBLEM." Uh, ok? Well that applies in airports, and bus stations, and at Georgetown games, and every other damn place where some jerk ass decides to shout into his cell phone. Why is that being thrown at the University?
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Dec 29, 2008 14:10:11 GMT -5
I really cannot for the life of me understand the general opposition to the University. It's constant and (from what I can tell) often totally baseless. The neighborhood opposes students walking around at night. They oppose a shuttle system. They oppose drinking establishments on campus. They oppose drinking off campus. They oppose buildings that aren't even visible unless you're on campus. Where does this come from? Is it an anti-college thing? Anti-students? Anti-young people? Anti-Catholic? I just don't understand the basis for this hostility. And I'm now looking at the PDF's above. What neighborhood in the world gets to bitch about delivery vehicles going up and down the streets?! These complaints are ludicrous. Really, I just can't figure out how it is any of this neighborhood's business whether we have an alcohol policy or add parking. If I don't like parking on my street (at home up in suburban NJ), I'm Edited out of luck. I don't get to complain about delivery trucks going to a nearby CVS. That's absurd. And it's not like most of the Georgetown neighbors have young kids trying to play out in the streets. What Georgetown needs is some of its most powerful alums to start pushing back against a neighborhood that thinks it should have the upper hand on every issue. Finally, for a good laugh, look at the second link, 6th page from the bottom: "CELL PHONE USERS ARE A PROBLEM." Uh, ok? Well that applies in airports, and bus stations, and at Georgetown games, and every other damn place where some jerk ass decides to shout into his cell phone. Why is that being thrown at the University? I think part of this might be the tendency of those in certain NW neighborhoods to think that they can have all of the convenience of city life with none of the drawbacks. I'm sorry, people, you live in a dense urban neighborhood with no rail access. Buses are essential for those who don't have BMWs and fancy garages to put them in. Seriously, a lot of those neighbors in the notes want GU to look into "non-motorized transport". Do they expect the university to build its own extension of the Metrorail system?
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Dec 29, 2008 15:01:54 GMT -5
the notes would be entertaining if they weren't so sad.
"Can GU regulate students' cars/parking off campus?'
Problems on the 1789 block include people walking and being noisy. I hope the people complaining didn't miss the irony of referring to it as the 1789 block. I completely understand fighting vandalism (though I don't see it being a large issue) and things like that, but 'people' and 'noise?' Students have a 'clock' different than neighbors? Not to sound insensitive, but, well, duh. Did you move into your house in 1788?
Is it reasonable to move next to a major college campus with 6000 students and complain about students being there? Darnall is too close to the neighborhood?
Honestly, what does the neighborhood ultimately want?
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Dec 29, 2008 16:59:03 GMT -5
Honestly, what does the neighborhood ultimately want? the university to disappear. what they forget is that much of what makes their homes so valuable has to do with the notoriety that the university has brought to the area (among many other things). If you get rid of the buses then there are going to be a butt load more people driving to the neighborhood (not students, employees, mainly at the hospital). But if the Residents want to buy me a segway so i dont need to take the bus to rosslyn or dupont then im all for it
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PDRHoya99
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Dec 30, 2008 2:01:01 GMT -5
The Washington Hilton was recently designated as a historic landmark as well - primarily based on its architect but also on its form. Not just for hosting every NAIMUN conference?
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Post by HoyaBlue02 on Jan 3, 2009 10:47:09 GMT -5
Boston College did a renovation of their 60's-era Science building and modified the exterior to be more inline with the Gothic-style campus. If you scroll a quarter way down this article (http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/fall_2003/ft_higgins.html), you can see the before and after shots.
Perhaps Gtown could hire the architect to do the same thing to Lauinger.
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on Jan 8, 2009 14:28:05 GMT -5
not entirely related, but while we're discussing neighborhood issues, we got this e-mail yesterday:
Dear Students, Welcome back, and Happy New Year! As you return to campus after the holidays, we want to bring you up-to-date on a recent development with the Metropolitan Police Department regarding enforcement of noise violations in the neighboring community. We also want to remind you of the importance of behaving responsibly and thoughtfully at all times, and particularly when you are off campus. Whether you live in Burleith or West Georgetown, or are simply walking through the neighborhood, Georgetown students are expected to obey all local laws and ordinances. Failure to do so can result in sanctions from local law enforcement, as well as from the University. The Metropolitan Police Department has informed the University that MPD officers are again authorized - and intend - to issue 61D Citations for excessive noise. Anyone who receives a 61D Citation will be required to pay a fine, but most importantly, will have an arrest record. This record will appear on employer background checks. Please consider carefully the consequences of noise violations that lead to MPD intervention. Thank you for your cooperation. We wish you much success in the new semester. Sincerely, Rocco DelMonaco, Jr. Vice President for University Safety
Jeanne Lord Associate Vice President for Student Affairs
Not sure how big of a change this is (I've never lived off-campus myself), but that part about an arrest record certainly got my attention. I wonder if this will turn out to be a big deal...
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