Na na na na, Hey Gun Ban, Goodbye!

[Bando]

As it turns out, no one will be buying a gun in DC for the foreseeable future. You need a gun store in DC to buy guns in DC (even if you buy out of state), and none of the city council members wants a gun shop in their ward. It's amazingly a zoning issue. (HoyaTables, please answer the white courtesy phone).

I smell another long, protracted bout of litigation.

[kchoya]

Jul 14, 2008 10:57:06 GMT -5 Bando said:

As it turns out, no one will be buying a gun in DC for the foreseeable future. You need a gun store in DC to buy guns in DC (even if you buy out of state), and none of the city council members wants a gun shop in their ward. It's amazingly a zoning issue. (HoyaTables, please answer the white courtesy phone).

I smell another long, protracted bout of litigation.

It's been a while since property law class, and there's not a lot of adult bookstore zoning cases here in Utah, but it seems like you cannot use zoning to completely keep a certain type of business out of a city/district/town/etc. Usually these cases deal with adult-oriented businesses, and the courts have ruled that you can limit them to certain areas and certain densities (I think). There can also be licensing and the secondary effects can be taken into account (I think). However, I don't think you can completely zone away a certain type of retail business.

[Bando]

Jul 14, 2008 11:34:25 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jul 14, 2008 10:57:06 GMT -5 Bando said:

As it turns out, no one will be buying a gun in DC for the foreseeable future. You need a gun store in DC to buy guns in DC (even if you buy out of state), and none of the city council members wants a gun shop in their ward. It's amazingly a zoning issue. (HoyaTables, please answer the white courtesy phone).

I smell another long, protracted bout of litigation.

It's been a while since property law class, and there's not a lot of adult bookstore zoning cases here in Utah, but it seems like you cannot use zoning to completely keep a certain type of business out of a city/district/town/etc. Usually these cases deal with adult-oriented businesses, and the courts have ruled that you can limit them to certain areas and certain densities (I think). There can also be licensing and the secondary effects can be taken into account (I think). However, I don't think you can completely zone away a certain type of retail business.

DC's nearly eliminated strip clubs, so maybe DC has a way of getting around this?

[theexorcist]

Jul 14, 2008 12:51:04 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 14, 2008 11:34:25 GMT -5 kchoya said:

It's been a while since property law class, and there's not a lot of adult bookstore zoning cases here in Utah, but it seems like you cannot use zoning to completely keep a certain type of business out of a city/district/town/etc. Usually these cases deal with adult-oriented businesses, and the courts have ruled that you can limit them to certain areas and certain densities (I think). There can also be licensing and the secondary effects can be taken into account (I think). However, I don't think you can completely zone away a certain type of retail business.

DC's nearly eliminated strip clubs, so maybe DC has a way of getting around this?

The difference is that those in favor of strip clubs don't have an organizations with hundreds of millions ready to file lawsuits as well as a specific mention in the Bill of Rights that was recently upheld by the Supremes.

Pulling a "zoning law" copout will get them destroyed in court.

OR Virginia gun dealers will sell to D.C. residents.

[rosslynhoya]

Jul 14, 2008 11:34:25 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jul 14, 2008 10:57:06 GMT -5 Bando said:

As it turns out, no one will be buying a gun in DC for the foreseeable future. You need a gun store in DC to buy guns in DC (even if you buy out of state), and none of the city council members wants a gun shop in their ward. It's amazingly a zoning issue. (HoyaTables, please answer the white courtesy phone).

I smell another long, protracted bout of litigation.

It's been a while since property law class, and there's not a lot of adult bookstore zoning cases here in Utah, but it seems like you cannot use zoning to completely keep a certain type of business out of a city/district/town/etc. Usually these cases deal with adult-oriented businesses, and the courts have ruled that you can limit them to certain areas and certain densities (I think). There can also be licensing and the secondary effects can be taken into account (I think). However, I don't think you can completely zone away a certain type of retail business.

This was explained repeatedly argument the SCOTUS decision came out, when it was clear that the DC council was likely to pursue this approach. Well, pursue this approach or banning handgun ammunition entirely.

As was pointed out to me recently, Congresspersons and U.S. military personnel are able to purchase handguns in their state of residence and bring them to DC. I don't believe DC has any regulation of person-to-person sales at the moment due to the blanket nature of the recently departed ban -- someone else may know for sure -- but it seems like there's an imminent opportunity for an enterprising person (I'm looking at you Kay Bailey Hutchinson!!) to make a lot of "friends" in the interim.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

I don't know if its been posted yet, but here's a link to the follow-on lawsuits filed by the NRA and others: www.scotusblog.com/wp/links-to-new-gun-rights-lawsuits/

[Bando]

Jul 14, 2008 12:55:06 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Jul 14, 2008 12:51:04 GMT -5 Bando said:

DC's nearly eliminated strip clubs, so maybe DC has a way of getting around this?

The difference is that those in favor of strip clubs don't have an organizations with hundreds of millions ready to file lawsuits as well as a specific mention in the Bill of Rights that was recently upheld by the Supremes.

Pulling a "zoning law" copout will get them destroyed in court.

OR Virginia gun dealers will sell to D.C. residents.

My impression from the blog post and the linked WSJ article was that guns bought out of state still have to go through a local shop for the background check and the actual handing over of the weapon.

[hifigator]

Jul 14, 2008 14:34:16 GMT -5 Bando said:

Jul 14, 2008 12:55:06 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

The difference is that those in favor of strip clubs don't have an organizations with hundreds of millions ready to file lawsuits as well as a specific mention in the Bill of Rights that was recently upheld by the Supremes.

Pulling a "zoning law" copout will get them destroyed in court.

OR Virginia gun dealers will sell to D.C. residents.

My impression from the blog post and the linked WSJ article was that guns bought out of state still have to go through a local shop for the background check and the actual handing over of the weapon.

That sounds to me like a sort of "appeal" without going through the legal motions. Effectively, they have violated the Supreme Court ruling in effect but not in principle. So at the very least they have stalled off for another period of time until they receive a favorable or unfavorable ruling. That's what I mean when I say it essentially serves as an appeal. Since you can't appeal a Supreme Court ruling, by doing it this way, they have effectively given themselves the benefit of the doubt until they receive a ruling. I don't think there is any legal basis for that position.

There is a Supreme Court ruling that has determined that a law/policy banning handguns is unconstitutional.

The obvious effect of a municipality requiring certification from within their own jurisdiction, but then having a policy/law/zoning ordinance which prohibit such business that would handle the certification is obviously in violation of the intent of the ruling. I don't think that will fly. They will probably be told to change their zoning requirements or that entire law will be deemed unconstitutional as well.


As for the nudity restrictions, there is an obvious difference. There isn't a constitutional right mandating that citizens have the right to attend strip bars -- at least none that I know of. Maybe there should be .... just kidding. Although at the state and local levels, there have been assorted rulings in favor of the industry. Down here the city has adopted an ordinance which prohibits the sale of alcohol in any venue that has nudity. That's a good one. Now you and I know that the point of that law is to make it not profitable enough to have a strip club. Therefore the intent of that law is to "disallow" strip clubs. But thus far that has held up in court. As of right now, Alachua County (where Gainesville, and the Univ. of Florida is) doesn't have a single strip club. There was one that was grandfathered in but it closed several years back. The city ordinances have effectively prevented anyone from filling the void. Not very coincidentally, there is one in the middle of nowhere, about 15 miles south of town, just across the county line.

[AustinHoya03]

George Will says: get ready for a new type of judicial activism.

I don't disagree with Will that there will be battles over whether the right recognized in Heller prevents, for example, the regulation of ammo sales or a requirement of trigger locks. I do disagree that this means Heller was decided wrongly (which Will doesn't say directly but implies heavily). When interpreting a silly, convoluted amendment, you get a silly, convoluted decision. The fact is, that amendment is in the Constitution. It would have been far sillier for the Court to hold that the 2nd Amendment creates no right to gun ownership at all.

I still think, as I said above, that a repeal of the 2nd amendment in favor of regulation by states would end up protecting gun rights in many instances. (I am quite sure that as a resident of Texas, nobody is coming for my firearms.) As we may see in the future, such a scheme might offer stronger protection than the holding in Heller. What if, for example, the SCOTUS rules three years down the road that regulating gun possession/ownership in high crime areas is legitimate? How would that affect, for example, a concealed carry license currently permitted under a state law?

I am quite sure that the nuts would scream bloody murder about the slippery slope if a push to repeal the 2nd Amendment gained momentum. (I've already garned one hearty guffaw in this thread.) However, I think many Americans agree gun laws should be different in Los Angeles, CA, than in Los Angeles, TX. Assuming Heller more or less stands up, they won't be until the 2nd Amendment goes away.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

There's a Los Angeles, TX?

Good points, Austin.