SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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Post by SoCalHoya on Jun 27, 2008 10:25:51 GMT -5
socal wrote: I have read studies to the contrary. Additionally, here in Florida we have "Ten-Twenty-Life" which is a state mandated prison scale for felonies involving a firearm. I think if you pull the gun then you are looking at 10 years minimum. If you fire the gun then it's 20 minimum and if you kill someone it is 25 years to life -- thus the "Ten-Twenty-Life" slogan. The early statistics have shown a fairly significant drop in such crimes. Incidentally, there is still pre-trial intervention and the sort, so a first time offender who "simply" pulls a gun during a robbery isn't necessarily going to get the 10 years. They can still plea down as I understand it. But for the most part, the deterance seems to be working. hifi, you didn't even address the DP, you just said you had read studies to the contrary. Then you went straight to deterrence w/r/t criminals wielding firearms. I guess you are trying to back in to the DP thing with that logic? As my academic advisor would say, "focus!" |
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,387
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Post by hifigator on Jun 27, 2008 12:09:02 GMT -5
socal wrote: On 1), from what I have read, the death penalty does very little (to nothing) to deter criminals from committing crimes. We like to think it does, because for the most part we are not murderous criminals and would be deterred from doing things if we were killed, but murderous criminals apparently don't even think of that sort of thing (I'm purposefully simplifying this for brevity's sake, for those playing at home).I have read studies to the contrary. Additionally, here in Florida we have "Ten-Twenty-Life" which is a state mandated prison scale for felonies involving a firearm. I think if you pull the gun then you are looking at 10 years minimum. If you fire the gun then it's 20 minimum and if you kill someone it is 25 years to life -- thus the "Ten-Twenty-Life" slogan. The early statistics have shown a fairly significant drop in such crimes. Incidentally, there is still pre-trial intervention and the sort, so a first time offender who "simply" pulls a gun during a robbery isn't necessarily going to get the 10 years. They can still plea down as I understand it. But for the most part, the deterance seems to be working. If we're going to accept that the death penalty deters crime, we have to necessarily applaud this decision. Death is the line you cannot cross, then. The deterrent for a criminal is thus: no matter what you do, not killing your victim will keep you alive. Killing them will incur the ultimate penalty. Getting rid of that distinction by expanding capital punishment to crimes other than murder weakens the deterrent effect. I presume that was meant as a joke. If not, that is probably the screwiest logic I have ever heard anyone say here. All individual opinions aside, the argument that any punishment that is a deterrent will cease to be a deterrent somehow if you actually enforce it is odd. |
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,387
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Post by hifigator on Jun 27, 2008 12:13:37 GMT -5
socal wrote: I have read studies to the contrary. Additionally, here in Florida we have "Ten-Twenty-Life" which is a state mandated prison scale for felonies involving a firearm. I think if you pull the gun then you are looking at 10 years minimum. If you fire the gun then it's 20 minimum and if you kill someone it is 25 years to life -- thus the "Ten-Twenty-Life" slogan. The early statistics have shown a fairly significant drop in such crimes. Incidentally, there is still pre-trial intervention and the sort, so a first time offender who "simply" pulls a gun during a robbery isn't necessarily going to get the 10 years. They can still plea down as I understand it. But for the most part, the deterance seems to be working. hifi, you didn't even address the DP, you just said you had read studies to the contrary. Then you went straight to deterrence w/r/t criminals wielding firearms. I guess you are trying to back in to the DP thing with that logic? As my academic advisor would say, "focus!" I have no idea what your point is. You (or someone else) questioned the deterrent effect of capital punishment. I have read such critical arguments before. I have also read articles with statistics which would seem to support the detterent effect. I don't have enough data to say with certainty which argument is more sound. What we do have in Florida is at least similar in effect. And the "10-20-Life" has been very well received here and statistics do show that it has had a deterrent effect on violent crimes committed with a firearm. I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing here. |
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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Post by SoCalHoya on Jun 27, 2008 16:31:53 GMT -5
hifi, what I am saying is that psyche/mental state of a murderer and a criminal with a gun are not necessarily similar. A deterrent like added or automatic jail time on a criminal willing to use a gun may work (I have no evidence to the contrary, though I have no looked), whereas the DP may not (and studies suggest do not) work against someone willing to kill. So, it is too far a logical leap to apply jailtime/gun analogy to DP/murderers since they are totally different situations and involve different states of mind.
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,387
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Post by hifigator on Jun 30, 2008 10:49:54 GMT -5
OK, I've gotcha now. Yes, I guess that's fair enough. Basically a lare number of those who are willing to kill someone have a screw loose to begin with, so the threat of the DP might not have the same effect on them as "norlmal" people.
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