RDF
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Post by RDF on Jul 30, 2008 10:53:56 GMT -5
Not to mention Cabrera led AL in hit batters last year--it's not like he's got Greg Maddux control and then decided to do something. I side with pitchers when it comes to these incidents and tire of hitters hanging over the plate/right on top of it--and getting Editeded when someone decks them or hits them. Don't like it--change how you hit-otherwise you better realize that it's part of the game. It's why I realize Jeter is going to get hit on hand about 5 times a year and Yankee fans will overreact. Diving into the ball is also how you get hit--ala Jeter.
Just another example of how baseball is catered to offense--they take away the inside for the pitcher and the ability to intimidate hitters.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jul 30, 2008 11:55:13 GMT -5
that call was complete bull and the worst part is it almost cost the O's the game. Completely ridiculous. With out that call the game probably ends 6-1( ok not necessarily, but more likely).
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jul 30, 2008 16:25:06 GMT -5
Detroit trades Pudge to the Yankees for Farnsworth.
I understand that the Tigers are probably ok with Inge at catcher (at least at the plate, where his OPS is the same as Pudge's, with more power), but this trade still doesn't make sense to me.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Jul 30, 2008 17:30:16 GMT -5
Detroit trades Pudge to the Yankees for Farnsworth. I understand that the Tigers are probably ok with Inge at catcher (at least at the plate, where his OPS is the same as Pudge's, with more power), but this trade still doesn't make sense to me. Pudge is a big name and Farnsworth is much-maligned, but ultimately this deal is not very significant. Pudge upgrades the Yanks offense slightly while actually downgrading their defense (Molina has been excellent in the running game and has lowered the pitchers ERA- Pudge is past his prime as a thrower and has never been a popular receiver with his pitchers). Farnsworth was actually pitching pretty well and leaves a hole in the 8th inning, but who could trust him?
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One
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Post by One on Jul 30, 2008 20:37:47 GMT -5
Thai's 'til 4 at Ashland and Addison could trust him to close the place down after pretty much every home game. Not coincidentally, no Cubs manager could ever trust him during day games at Wrigley.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Jul 30, 2008 22:29:11 GMT -5
River Kwai?
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Jul 31, 2008 9:08:15 GMT -5
Well at least the Chisox will escape this series with the lead. If the rumors of shopping Cabrera to Oakland or LA are true, Kenny better get an assload of something for him EDIT: Griffey Jr. ? I wonder what he would play? Thome is having too good a year for him to be the DH (unless Thome gets moved) and Dye is having a good year in RF, maybe Center? First Base?
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Jul 31, 2008 10:02:22 GMT -5
Griffey in center would be hilarious... for the 3 innings he'd be out there before his leg fell off.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 31, 2008 16:31:04 GMT -5
And I have to think that's what we are going to see. Griffey in center, Swisher at first, Konerko on the bench. I don't see this as much of an upgrade, and someone is going to be very unhappy.
Of course, this pales in comparison to ManRam to Dodgers, Jason Bay to Red Sox, minor leaguers to Pirates.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 3, 2008 17:57:41 GMT -5
So who made a better trade at the deadline, the White Sox, by getting Griffey (sacrificing any pretense that they cared about defense) or the first place Twins (sorry, I couldn't resist) by swapping Livan Hernandez for Francisco Liriano?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 4, 2008 13:30:58 GMT -5
So who made a better trade at the deadline, the White Sox, by getting Griffey (sacrificing any pretense that they cared about defense) or the first place Twins (sorry, I couldn't resist) by swapping Livan Hernandez for Francisco Liriano? Enjoy it while you can. Of course, the answer to your question is so obvious that I won't bother.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 5, 2008 12:36:36 GMT -5
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Aug 6, 2008 8:59:11 GMT -5
I take back every bad thing I've ever said/typed/thought about Swisher
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 6, 2008 11:14:36 GMT -5
That's interesting--because I watched Mariano Rivera's first start against the White Sox--and believe he struck out 10+ hitters (thought it was 13, but going off memory) and he seemed just fine to me--but was more valuable out of bullpen--shortening the game.
Anyone who pulls for a team with a great closer can attest--if you think the position is overrated--watch teams who have TRASH at the end of games, blow game after game, and lose games that should've been won because they can't find a guy who can throw strikes or get those last 3 outs.
Caple is a P-Rick who worked in Twin Cities--so I can see why he'd do something like this--and last time I checked one of the big moves the Twins made to help them in '87 was getting a closer (Reardon)--but maybe my memory is selective.
I'd take Rivera, Papelbon, K-Rod, Nathan, and other great closers over the mediocre, watered down, babied, starting pitching that is so mediocre--a "quality start" is considered just getting to the 6th inning and pitch counts ruin development. The idea/mentality has to be you plan on pitching 9 innings and winning--but today it's "just give my team a chance into the 6th and turn it over to the pen" but then again P-Ricks like Caple don't understand things. Pitchers can cruise in an 118 pitch game or struggle in a 90 pitch game--it's the type of pitching you have to do in a particular game or how your pitch count got high--maybe you had a guy battle you hard 4 AB's and foul off pitches but you cruised through rest of lineup. Maybe you didn't have anything, were sore, and had to fight to get through 90--but his column is typical ESPN--just trying to draw attention for being "smarter" then everyone else.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 6, 2008 11:25:32 GMT -5
I don't think you get the point- it's not that guys like Rivera, Nathan, and Papelbon aren't valuable, it's that their value is not being maximized because they are not being used in the most high leverage situations. Those guys almost never come in to a tie game, or, heaven forbid, a losing situation, where they could be very helpful in getting tough outs with runners in scoring position and keeping their team in the game. All because those aren't "save situations." Meanwhile they are almost always used in the 9th with a 3 run lead, even if they are facing the bottom of the Padres order. It's just silly to use your best relief pitcher in that situation.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 6, 2008 12:28:53 GMT -5
That's interesting--because I watched Mariano Rivera's first start against the White Sox--and believe he struck out 10+ hitters (thought it was 13, but going off memory) and he seemed just fine to me--but was more valuable out of bullpen--shortening the game. Anyone who pulls for a team with a great closer can attest--if you think the position is overrated--watch teams who have TRASH at the end of games, blow game after game, and lose games that should've been won because they can't find a guy who can throw strikes or get those last 3 outs. Caple is a P-Rick who worked in Twin Cities--so I can see why he'd do something like this--and last time I checked one of the big moves the Twins made to help them in '87 was getting a closer (Reardon)--but maybe my memory is selective. I'd take Rivera, Papelbon, K-Rod, Nathan, and other great closers over the mediocre, watered down, babied, starting pitching that is so mediocre--a "quality start" is considered just getting to the 6th inning and pitch counts ruin development. The idea/mentality has to be you plan on pitching 9 innings and winning--but today it's "just give my team a chance into the 6th and turn it over to the pen" but then again P-Ricks like Caple don't understand things. Pitchers can cruise in an 118 pitch game or struggle in a 90 pitch game--it's the type of pitching you have to do in a particular game or how your pitch count got high--maybe you had a guy battle you hard 4 AB's and foul off pitches but you cruised through rest of lineup. Maybe you didn't have anything, were sore, and had to fight to get through 90--but his column is typical ESPN--just trying to draw attention for being "smarter" then everyone else. I remember watching that Chisox/Yankee game, and thinking "who the $%@# is this kid?" He had great stuff. I don't think there is any doubt that Rivera would have been an outstanding starter if the Yankees had left him in that role.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Aug 6, 2008 13:40:14 GMT -5
That's interesting--because I watched Mariano Rivera's first start against the White Sox--and believe he struck out 10+ hitters (thought it was 13, but going off memory) and he seemed just fine to me--but was more valuable out of bullpen--shortening the game. Anyone who pulls for a team with a great closer can attest--if you think the position is overrated--watch teams who have TRASH at the end of games, blow game after game, and lose games that should've been won because they can't find a guy who can throw strikes or get those last 3 outs. Caple is a P-Rick who worked in Twin Cities--so I can see why he'd do something like this--and last time I checked one of the big moves the Twins made to help them in '87 was getting a closer (Reardon)--but maybe my memory is selective. I'd take Rivera, Papelbon, K-Rod, Nathan, and other great closers over the mediocre, watered down, babied, starting pitching that is so mediocre--a "quality start" is considered just getting to the 6th inning and pitch counts ruin development. The idea/mentality has to be you plan on pitching 9 innings and winning--but today it's "just give my team a chance into the 6th and turn it over to the pen" but then again P-Ricks like Caple don't understand things. Pitchers can cruise in an 118 pitch game or struggle in a 90 pitch game--it's the type of pitching you have to do in a particular game or how your pitch count got high--maybe you had a guy battle you hard 4 AB's and foul off pitches but you cruised through rest of lineup. Maybe you didn't have anything, were sore, and had to fight to get through 90--but his column is typical ESPN--just trying to draw attention for being "smarter" then everyone else. I remember watching that Chisox/Yankee game, and thinking "who the $%@# is this kid?" He had great stuff. I don't think there is any doubt that Rivera would have been an outstanding starter if the Yankees had left him in that role. Yeah--think he was tossing a 1 hitter too--but he was electric and had same thought--wasn't it around 4th of July?
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Aug 6, 2008 13:50:31 GMT -5
I don't think you get the point- it's not that guys like Rivera, Nathan, and Papelbon aren't valuable, it's that their value is not being maximized because they are not being used in the most high leverage situations. Those guys almost never come in to a tie game, or, heaven forbid, a losing situation, where they could be very helpful in getting tough outs with runners in scoring position and keeping their team in the game. All because those aren't "save situations." Meanwhile they are almost always used in the 9th with a 3 run lead, even if they are facing the bottom of the Padres order. It's just silly to use your best relief pitcher in that situation. Yeah--Rivera has never come in longer then an inning and he always comes in with 3 run lead. K-Rod and Angels have played an insane amount of 1 run games and lead MLB in 1 run victories. Pitchers get up when called upon-if you want to complain--complain about how they are used--but dont' belittle their abilities and importance because you think something isn't as important due to how they are used. If great relievers are asked to get 9, 6, or 3 outs, they can do it. Thing is--if you are going to pay them big money--you want to have that investment for longer amount of time Same with starting pitching--but it's still too babied --as pitch counts vary. The biggest change in baseball that has made it worse--is like any sport--MONEY. Players make more--more teams, talent pool is watered down, specialization is encouraged to protect investments and to help more players make more/Agents make more, and the game is policed like a touch football game played by infants. It's really simple--the eye doesn't lie. If you see someone who continues to dominate/succeed--then I'd say they are a great player who could succeed in any era. If a guy dominates for 2-3 years and drops off--then you have your answer. I just take great offense to anyone putting the word "overrated" near Mariano Rivera or others who dominate in the role they are used. It's not like anyone can do this job--or else they would always let people go and let anyone try and get those outs. I just know when Rivera can't pitch and you saw/see the likes of Kyle Farnsworth, Brian Bruney, Scott Proctor, etc.. try and get those outs--with a 3 run lead or less--things often ended ugly.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Aug 6, 2008 15:37:02 GMT -5
Pitchers get up when called upon-if you want to complain--complain about how they are used--but dont' belittle their abilities and importance because you think something isn't as important due to how they are used. That's the entire point of the article, he is arguing that their importance to the team is minimized by how they're being used. He isn't belittling their abilities, he's belittling their performance for the the exact reasons you said. He, and Bill James, think that the best reliever should not always be the guy who pitches the 9th inning. Your stat on the Angels leading the MLB in 1-run victories is out-of-date - the Rangers now have 24 1-run victories, and they had CJ Wilson's 6+ ERA going 24/28 on save opps for 4 months.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 6, 2008 16:39:30 GMT -5
Pitchers get up when called upon-if you want to complain--complain about how they are used--but dont' belittle their abilities and importance because you think something isn't as important due to how they are used. That's the entire point of the article, he is arguing that their importance to the team is minimized by how they're being used. He isn't belittling their abilities, he's belittling their performance for the the exact reasons you said. He, and Bill James, think that the best reliever should not always be the guy who pitches the 9th inning. Your stat on the Angels leading the MLB in 1-run victories is out-of-date - the Rangers now have 24 1-run victories, and they had CJ Wilson's 6+ ERA going 24/28 on save opps for 4 months. Don't bother arguing baseball with this man. He still wants to trade A-Rod for Joe Crede.
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