hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on Feb 27, 2008 10:12:03 GMT -5
2) If SID revokes press credentials of the Voice for printing a commentary about Esherick, can we get the same for the Hoya? Before the cries of "the Voice was worse" are sounded, this Hoya piece was arguably more vindictive in that it attacked a large group of alums and Hoop Club donors. I donated when we were up and when we were down and don't feel Mr. Nixon's moralism is well taken or well placed. Pierce is an opinion columnist; he's never covered a basketball game and almost certainly never will. To pull a press credential from those that do over this would be pretty absurd. To pull a press credential from anyone who writes an opinion they don't agree with would be a new low for this university. The SID is better of not commenting on the story as all, make it seem like it is so insignificant that it isn't on their radar. When did that happen to the Voice? The SID is strict, but that is amazing that they would do that.
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 27, 2008 10:42:36 GMT -5
I think it's misleading to call the Voice "press" in the first place. It would be like giving Charmin a press pass. Just because you produce something that has to do with paper doesn't mean it's a newspaper, journalism, or even worth existing.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 27, 2008 10:53:39 GMT -5
Wow, Dan, you sure took the long route to get there ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) You guys insist on reading between the wrong lines! ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Hoya TMF on Feb 27, 2008 11:12:36 GMT -5
After reading the last 8 pages, my one question is:
Would you change anything about Esherick's tenure?
Esh was a bad coach, not a great recruiter and at least some think he was an arrogant jerk on several occasions. Still, at least two of our seniors are here because of Esh. JTIII was not ready to assume the mantle of HC when his father quit the program in the middle of my freshman year. Who knows who we could have gotten at the end of that season to coach instead of Esh.
The program has made a great resurgence under JTIII. I highly doubt that would have been possible if Esh had not had the reigns. People talk about his recruiting misses with Joakim Noah and Shan Foster. Who cares. We went to a Final Four without them last year, and we are doing pretty well this year without them as well.
I like the jilted boyfriend analogy that others have brought up. It's as though your college girlfriend broke your heart and cheated on you. You hated her at the time, had a messy break-up, but found a new girlfriend. Despite now being happily married to a hottie that's madly in love with you, you still have to criticize your ex-girlfriend from four years ago. Except you don't even appreciate the fact that whatever went wrong in that relationship brought you to this point. So just appreciate what you have now and shut up about it. Granted, Pierce broached the subject, but these critiques of Esh don't need to be revisited; it's clear the author is not well informed.
I think Hoya fans have to be pretty satisfied with where they are right now. And we would not be at this point if Esh had not stunk up the joint for several years. So in that small way, I have to appreciate his accomplishments or at least recognize that his tenure wasn't all bad for our program.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 27, 2008 11:25:44 GMT -5
First, I do not think it was all that bad a column - it expresses an opinion and the writer is welcome to it. As for quibbles about factual basis, who cares if Billy Packer said he thought the program was irrelevant? Quibbles about factual basis??Dan, You call leaving out the most important party of the story, the Esh rant that led directly to his departure, "quibbling about facts"? I think it was not only a bad column, but an irresponsible one. Why? Because it presents only one side of the story, yet still draws a conclusion that the writer suggests is "absolute". It calls for Georgetown to apologize to Esh.... but ignores the fast that Esh is the one directly responsible for what happened. I hope someone can track down the story and quotes from "the Rant". Even as someone who ardently supported Coach Esherick throughout his tenure and was devastated by his firing, I was surprised by the timing of this article. I have tried to stay out of the fray on this debate, as I have more than said my piece in relation to Esherick, but I do want to respond to the sentiment Sir Saxa voiced in the above-referenced quotation. Esherick's so-called "rant" days prior to his firing should have been in no way, shape, or form any grounds whatsoever to terminate him. In fact, it should have had no effect on his job status. Nothing he said was unreasonable or inappropriate. My only response to his comments was dismay that he had in any way acknowledged the people who were attacking him and the program. People need to read between the lines a little bit. When he said that he might be coach for thirty years, he wasn't trying to say that he had some sort of divine right to be GU coach; what he was saying is that he was never, ever going to quit, no matter how many people might dislike (or even hate) him. On that note, I think he was also saying, in his own abrupt way, that he was hurt by the attacks of GU fans and alums. As I remember he discussed the prolonged success of the program and how he was proud of that. He seemed to be saying, "Look, we've had a successful basketball program for a long time...now we have one losing season and people are going off the deep end. That offends me. Back off." Again, I think it would have best just not to respond to those people, but it's hard to always restrain yourself. Plus, Esherick's boss had just given him a vote of confidence. That certainly gives him the right to feel secure in his position and defend himself and the program, which is what he was doing. If Jack D had really meant what he said a week or so before those comments, they should have had no effect on Esherick's position with the school. Even if the comments were arrogant and inflammatory- which they weren't- they certainly weren't enough to get him fired. Sure, Esherick could have handled the situation better, but it was classless for the Jack to make such a reasounding public statement and then do a 180. If the "rant" was really the reason for that, it was and remains a wholly invalid excuse. Having said all of that...GU fired Esh, spun the wheel, and out of the limited pool of qualified coaches with integrity who are willing to make less than market value, they landed an absolute gem in JT III. I am very happy with the status of the program today and, again, I am surprised the timing of this article, even though I agree with many of its sentiments. My philosophy is that the team and coaches owe the fans nothing but their best efforts. As long as they are doing things the right way- working hard, not cutting corners, and competing to win- I will never attack them, and as long as I believe they have the ability to compete at an elite level, I will give them my support. That will be the same if we had been to five straight Final Fours or five straight NITs. Based on everything Esherick had done and the totality of the situation, including our incoming recruits, I very much believed that Esherick would have returned the program to the NCAAs and put it in a position to potentially compete for a championship. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me. But I will never understand fans who seem to think that the program owes them something and who express anger at the coaching staff when the team doesn't meet their expectations. I don't want to beat this dead horse any more on the board, but feel free to respond to me via PM. GO HOYAS- beat SJU and let's go out and make it two straight Big East titles!
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Post by jerseyshorehoya on Feb 27, 2008 11:42:45 GMT -5
Based on everything Esherick had done and the totality of the situation, including our incoming recruits, I very much believed that Esherick would have returned the program to the NCAAs and put it in a position to potentially compete for a championship. Oh boy. Put politely, that post caused some bad memories to regurgitate. All this thread needs now is a point/counterpoint featuring Raleigh Hoya and Dose of Reality, and this board will have come full circle.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Feb 27, 2008 11:42:55 GMT -5
nice post hoyalove...
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 27, 2008 11:45:46 GMT -5
After reading the last 8 pages, my one question is: Would you change anything about Esherick's tenure? Esh was a bad coach, not a great recruiter and at least some think he was an arrogant jerk on several occasions. Still, at least two of our seniors are here because of Esh. JTIII was not ready to assume the mantle of HC when his father quit the program in the middle of my freshman year. Who knows who we could have gotten at the end of that season to coach instead of Esh. The program has made a great resurgence under JTIII. I highly doubt that would have been possible if Esh had not had the reigns. People talk about his recruiting misses with Joakim Noah and Shan Foster. Who cares. We went to a Final Four without them last year, and we are doing pretty well this year without them as well. I like the jilted boyfriend analogy that others have brought up. It's as though your college girlfriend broke your heart and cheated on you. You hated her at the time, had a messy break-up, but found a new girlfriend. Despite now being happily married to a hottie that's madly in love with you, you still have to criticize your ex-girlfriend from four years ago. Except you don't even appreciate the fact that whatever went wrong in that relationship brought you to this point. So just appreciate what you have now and shut up about it. Granted, Pierce broached the subject, but these critiques of Esh don't need to be revisited; it's clear the author is not well informed. I think Hoya fans have to be pretty satisfied with where they are right now. And we would not be at this point if Esh had not stunk up the joint for several years. So in that small way, I have to appreciate his accomplishments or at least recognize that his tenure wasn't all bad for our program. First - the comments on recruiting dealt with the complaint that some Esh supporters have come up with that he recruited Hibbert and Green and III essentially won with Esh's players. I think that it's a nonsense argument on both sides since recruiting's a crapshoot. Now. You have GOT to be kidding. Your approximate logic is that Georgetown needed to be so bad so that III would decide to come here. If you want to go with the jilted lover analogy, this is like saying "maybe if I'm suicidal, someone will save me!". Esh's last year, I was at the Duke game. Georgetown took a quick lead (maybe 6-2?), then Duke had 50 at the half. They essentially named the score. After that game, the team collapsed, going 2-11 (with both wins over Miami). My favorite was the Seton Hall game, where GU lost by 27. A student body that doesn't care about anything that's not beer-related rose up. So let's take the jilted lover analogy further. Someone stomps on your heart, cleans out your bank account, and leaves you with a bare house, including taking the batteries out of your remote control. Oh, and as they leave, they pull the first girlfriend from Invincible, and tell you that they're the best you will ever find and that your remaining dreams will go unfulfilled. A month later, you find someone new who's pretty much perfect. At your wedding, someone suggests that you were hard on this person. You try to ignore this person, but they keep on coming up, and people suggest that you were too hard on them. Really, I don't get it. If no one else starts or writes a thread on Esh, I won't bring this up. EDIT - one other item. GU in III's first year was really, really thin, and hit a wall that showed it with five straight losses, including four by nine or more and one at home to an awful Providence team. The difference is that, their last game, they fought #12 UConn tooth and nail rather than going out to Boston College like a lamb to the slaughter. If Esh was bringing in the promised land of recruits, they didn't show up in III's first year.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Feb 27, 2008 12:01:49 GMT -5
Even as someone who ardently supported Coach Esherick throughout his tenure and was devastated by his firing Devastated? You are a non-relative and Georgetown fan, right? I can't even comprehend the possibility of someone being that upset over Esherick's firing.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 27, 2008 12:04:06 GMT -5
I think the bad breakup analogy really works (better than my exorcism or enema analogy, anyway), and the continued dialogue merely bears this out. I love the comment that it was what brought us to this point, so accept it and move on from it.
Ok, so basically Hoyatalk needs closure. Basically JT III is our Heather Graham and we just need to get out there on the dance floor with him and forget about that Esherick guy back east in New York. Hoyatalk, you're a like a big bear with claws and with fangs!
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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 27, 2008 12:12:59 GMT -5
wow - devasted, huh? that is hilarious actually - what a nance.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Feb 27, 2008 12:15:16 GMT -5
Now. You have GOT to be kidding. Your approximate logic is that Georgetown needed to be so bad so that III would decide to come here. If you want to go with the jilted lover analogy, this is like saying "maybe if I'm suicidal, someone will save me!". Well, except we are talking about the past. Obviously that was not my mind set when we were in Esh's last year and losing game after game. The point is this: we've moved on to bigger and better things. Esh was a bad coach and those years sucked. The silver lining is that as a direct result of that, we got a great coach and have been winning consistently since. As frustrating as that period with Esh was, I can't say that I would change anything because who knows where this program would be if things hadn't happened that way. The strong feelings that have been expressed in this thread might be more warranted if the program was still struggling. As I said before, the column is what spurred this conversation, but it still seems like some posters have a lot of animosity towards Esh. If Esh is a part of the Hoya family, then we can acknowledge his mistakes, but recognize that even his failures had a role in where we are today. And that is a very good place.
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Post by Hoya TMF on Feb 27, 2008 12:20:21 GMT -5
I mean if Esh had just been mediocre and not as bad as he was, he might still be our coach.
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 27, 2008 12:23:49 GMT -5
Ok, so basically Hoyatalk needs closure. Basically JT III is our Heather Graham and we just need to get out there on the dance floor with him and forget about that Esherick guy back east in New York. Hoyatalk, you're a like a big bear with claws and with fangs! Except that we broke up with him and never sat alone in our apartment mooning about him. We don't need closure, we just don't want to hear about him anymore, much less be told that we owe him reparations. If anything, Esherick is like the husband in Sleeping with the Enemy that we wish would just go away -- far, far, far away.
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 27, 2008 12:28:55 GMT -5
This thread is DEVASTATING
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 27, 2008 12:30:19 GMT -5
I mean if Esh had just been mediocre and not as bad as he was, he might still be our coach. This is an "agree to disagree" moment. I'm not an "everything happens for a reason" person.
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 27, 2008 12:31:51 GMT -5
Quibbles about factual basis??Dan, You call leaving out the most important party of the story, the Esh rant that led directly to his departure, "quibbling about facts"? I think it was not only a bad column, but an irresponsible one. Why? Because it presents only one side of the story, yet still draws a conclusion that the writer suggests is "absolute". It calls for Georgetown to apologize to Esh.... but ignores the fast that Esh is the one directly responsible for what happened. I hope someone can track down the story and quotes from "the Rant". Even as someone who ardently supported Coach Esherick throughout his tenure and was devastated by his firing, I was surprised by the timing of this article. I have tried to stay out of the fray on this debate, as I have more than said my piece in relation to Esherick, but I do want to respond to the sentiment Sir Saxa voiced in the above-referenced quotation. Esherick's so-called "rant" days prior to his firing should have been in no way, shape, or form any grounds whatsoever to terminate him. In fact, it should have had no effect on his job status. Nothing he said was unreasonable or inappropriate. My only response to his comments was dismay that he had in any way acknowledged the people who were attacking him and the program. People need to read between the lines a little bit. When he said that he might be coach for thirty years, he wasn't trying to say that he had some sort of divine right to be GU coach; what he was saying is that he was never, ever going to quit, no matter how many people might dislike (or even hate) him. On that note, I think he was also saying, in his own abrupt way, that he was hurt by the attacks of GU fans and alums. As I remember he discussed the prolonged success of the program and how he was proud of that. He seemed to be saying, "Look, we've had a successful basketball program for a long time...now we have one losing season and people are going off the deep end. That offends me. Back off." Again, I think it would have best just not to respond to those people, but it's hard to always restrain yourself. Plus, Esherick's boss had just given him a vote of confidence. That certainly gives him the right to feel secure in his position and defend himself and the program, which is what he was doing. If Jack D had really meant what he said a week or so before those comments, they should have had no effect on Esherick's position with the school. Even if the comments were arrogant and inflammatory- which they weren't- they certainly weren't enough to get him fired. Sure, Esherick could have handled the situation better, but it was classless for the Jack to make such a reasounding public statement and then do a 180. If the "rant" was really the reason for that, it was and remains a wholly invalid excuse. Having said all of that...GU fired Esh, spun the wheel, and out of the limited pool of qualified coaches with integrity who are willing to make less than market value, they landed an absolute gem in JT III. I am very happy with the status of the program today and, again, I am surprised the timing of this article, even though I agree with many of its sentiments. My philosophy is that the team and coaches owe the fans nothing but their best efforts. As long as they are doing things the right way- working hard, not cutting corners, and competing to win- I will never attack them, and as long as I believe they have the ability to compete at an elite level, I will give them my support. That will be the same if we had been to five straight Final Fours or five straight NITs. Based on everything Esherick had done and the totality of the situation, including our incoming recruits, I very much believed that Esherick would have returned the program to the NCAAs and put it in a position to potentially compete for a championship. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me. But I will never understand fans who seem to think that the program owes them something and who express anger at the coaching staff when the team doesn't meet their expectations. I don't want to beat this dead horse any more on the board, but feel free to respond to me via PM. GO HOYAS- beat SJU and let's go out and make it two straight Big East titles! Will someone please print this out and frame it and send it to the Eshericks? They'd probably enjoy it. For everyone else, and for anyone who knows one iota about Hoyas hoops, this has to be the most laughable post ever written by a poster not named hoyafoeva/eighties.
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royski
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Post by royski on Feb 27, 2008 12:33:16 GMT -5
Is anyone else amused that the ad above this thread is for Ann Coulter? What does that ad show up for, threads that involve lunacy?
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VelvetElvis
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Post by VelvetElvis on Feb 27, 2008 12:39:31 GMT -5
This thread is DEVASTATING I CALLED IT!!!
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Post by jerseyshorehoya on Feb 27, 2008 12:40:59 GMT -5
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