WHAT is going on with this team? Will it learn?

[royski]

I wouldn't mind a more conventional offense, but I also think its too late to tinker that heavily.

[RDF]

Feb 12, 2008 2:17:23 GMT -5 royski said:

I wouldn't mind a more conventional offense, but I also think its too late to tinker that heavily.

It's not tinkering to say "pound the ball down low and everyone play off the big man". That is just basketball 101--INSIDE/OUT is how you play championship ball. Now if you don't have a low post scorer--you still can do this with draw/kick--but it starts by going inside near the hoop and moving ball to open shooters.

The point of any offense is to get high percentage shots. With "Georgetown Offense"--it's about making the EXTRA PASS, the better the look--being unselfish. That isn't happening. Hibbert is ignored. He's ignored for long stretches and he can make game a lot easier for others. They just don't realize or care to understand how you play offensive ball.

You can't tweak your roster in college--you play who have but if guys aren't listening or ignoring instructions--then sit them. If you aren't a high powered offensive team--find the approach that works best and ride it--but that takes sacrifice and discipline--which we have seen in spurts but not a commitment to on offensive end for full game.

[Hoya TMF]

I wonder why Roy himself doesn't demand the ball more? I guess all he can do is put his hands up and call for it. These games are leaving me more and more frustrated. And to whomever said we are the ebst team in the league, I don't know about that anymore. We may have the best record, but both ND and UConn are playing better right now and Louisville just took it to us. No of that will matter if we finish above them in the standings, but I really hope we get it together soon. I am just vexed that JTIII doesn't seem to be making adjustments. Of course, he's the coach with a Final Four under his belt and I'm a poster on a fan board at 4am, so I guess I can still feel comfortable deferring to his better judgment.

[HoyaFanNY]

we need guards (chris wright ) that can create their own shot. for all the positives sapp, wallace, and rivers bring, they are not good at creating their own shot off the dribble. summers is the only one that takes it to the basket strong. all 3 guards are incredibly careless with the ball.

[NCHoya]

I am a pretty positive guy, but I have lost my patience with this staff's inability to attack a press, at least part of the time AND to get Roy the damn ball! I mean run the play through him, make it impossible not to get him the touches he deserves.

With regard to the slow work against the press, I honestly do not know what to say anymore. Why is JT3 so stubborn that he will not, at least at times, attack and go for the quick score? With our defense, each time we score it is like a normal team socring 4 points. Why we simply do not try to get easy looks against the press is beyond me. I mean it is not like we are limiting our turnovers, we just turnover the ball more delibrately.

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY WE WORK THIS WAY AGAINST THE PRESS?

Has the media ever asked JT3? Can you tell I am frustrated?

WAKE-UP HOYAS!

[HoyaSC]

One spot I feel like we've improved is rebounding. Even though we got outrebounded against Louisville and Villanova, the margins were not large. From the way we rebounded earlier in the year, the improvement is large.

Feeding Roy and breaking pressure are things that can be fixed by the coaches. Just because it hasn't been fixed, yet, doesn't mean it won't get fixed. I think they'll fix it, especially getting Roy the ball. I don't see how any of the players can watch the film of this game after Nova's front line fouled out and not be embarrassed about not getting Roy the ball.

[HometownHoya]

Feb 12, 2008 2:26:51 GMT -5 RDF said:

It's not tinkering to say "pound the ball down low and everyone play off the big man". That is just basketball 101--INSIDE/OUT is how you play championship ball. Now if you don't have a low post scorer--you still can do this with draw/kick--but it starts by going inside near the hoop and moving ball to open shooters.

Thats true, but realistically, what we should realize is that the Georgetown offense should have its passing go constantly through its center (esp if he is an AA Center), just as if he was a guard out on the perimeter.

Feb 12, 2008 2:26:51 GMT -5 RDF said:

The point of any offense is to get high percentage shots. With "Georgetown Offense"--it's about making the EXTRA PASS, the better the look--being unselfish. That isn't happening. Hibbert is ignored. He's ignored for long stretches and he can make game a lot easier for others. They just don't realize or care to understand how you play offensive ball.

Like I just said, Roy should be included in the passing around the perimeter (while on the blocks), not only because he is a great passer, but also because he IS the high percentage shot, the better look.

[KHoyaNYC]

Last I checked Roy seems to have developed a pretty nice jump shot too. We don't have to always get him the ball down low. Just give it to him ANYWHERE ON THE COURT. More touches Roy gets = more points for the Hoyas. Very simple.

[hoyafoeva]

Feb 11, 2008 22:05:42 GMT -5 jgalt said:

jsut as a note and because i have no where else to put it, the rutgers-tenn. womens game was decided the exact same way tonight

now back to your regularly scheduled RDF rant

RDF, you are not hard no this team, those are true facts, and you're stating them, the same thing I was doing last year, and you're right about was Jay Bilas was saying last, he and Rafferty were saying this. Also Lenny Elmore was saying this also this year.

[hoyafoeva]

Feb 12, 2008 2:26:51 GMT -5 RDF said:

Feb 12, 2008 2:17:23 GMT -5 royski said:

I wouldn't mind a more conventional offense, but I also think its too late to tinker that heavily.

It's not tinkering to say "pound the ball down low and everyone play off the big man". That is just basketball 101--INSIDE/OUT is how you play championship ball. Now if you don't have a low post scorer--you still can do this with draw/kick--but it starts by going inside near the hoop and moving ball to open shooters.

The point of any offense is to get high percentage shots. With "Georgetown Offense"--it's about making the EXTRA PASS, the better the look--being unselfish. That isn't happening. Hibbert is ignored. He's ignored for long stretches and he can make game a lot easier for others. They just don't realize or care to understand how you play offensive ball.

You can't tweak your roster in college--you play who have but if guys aren't listening or ignoring instructions--then sit them. If you aren't a high powered offensive team--find the approach that works best and ride it--but that takes sacrifice and discipline--which we have seen in spurts but not a commitment to on offensive end for full game.

Exactly RDF!!

[hoyafoeva]

Feb 11, 2008 22:05:42 GMT -5 jgalt said:

jsut as a note and because i have no where else to put it, the rutgers-tenn. womens game was decided the exact same way tonight

now back to your regularly scheduled RDF rant

Everytime someone is right about the game of basketball doesn't mean they are ranting...all RDF is saying is about playing basketball the right way, inside, out!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is not considered ranting, thank you sir.

[hoyafoeva]

Feb 11, 2008 22:17:05 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

Hey guess what? We are still the best team in the best league in the country. Wallace woke up, Roy had a good game, and DaJuan did his thing. I personally would like to extend handshakes, milkshakes, and sandwiches to everyone.

Lighten up RDF, you're going to hurt yourself.

RDF is right on point and its so easy to see this and its so easy to GIVE ROY THE DAMN BALL!!!!

[HometownHoya]

Now he is replying to the same post twice

[HoyasAreHungry]

of course this is good analysis by RDF....its both well articulated and very true. I think the problem that most people had with you RDF was how you came off in prior threads which sounded more scathing and confrontational than giving straight analysis. While I am not arguing with the analysis in those threads I am merely stating what I and I am sure other posters had an issue with too. I do appreciate an educated knowledgeable look at our team. I am frustrated, much like all of you, for the points everyone made above. I really do hope that we can turn this thing around and play up to our potential. I can't stand seeing us play well and dominate the elite teams (yes and even the lesser teams) for stretches and then completely get away from what we were doing to create that play. JTIII has been able to do well with this team in general before, so I am optimistically (crossing my fingers and toes) hoping he figures out how to light a fire under these kids.

[KeysPlaceHoya]

RDF, you are 100% correct with all of your points. Something is wrong with the team, and I hope the coaches can fix it. Last year we had similar, equally frustrating games and the coaching staff and players turned things around. I hope they can do it this year and soon. Something's not right. The offense is baaaaaad and mentally the team doesn't seem to be all with it, especially the guards.

We had an 8 point lead and momentum on Memphis and then blew it and lost the game.

We had a 10 point lead on Louisville and momentum and blew it and lost the game.

We had sizebale leads against UConn, Syracuse, Seton Hall, and now Villanova, and we blew all those leads and were fortunate enough to come away with wins, but we could easily be 16-7 (15-8 if you count the win at WVU as being a toss-up that we easily could have lost) right now if not for some gutsy play and good luck and a few timely 3 point shots.

That being said, I'd rather be 20-3 and in first place in the Big East and still vying for a top seed dealing with these issues rather than 15-8, out of the rankings, and needing to win a bunch more games to get into the NCAA tournament. Things could be MUCH worse right now, but if things don't change we'll be lucky to make the semi-finals of the Big East tournament, let alone the sweet sixteen.

[hometownhoya72]

Gentlemen, I believe we were lucky last night. And I for one don't believe in luck. The last foul called with time running out, was borderline at best. Overtime could have been an easy remedy for the refs. (As well as the WVA game). No calls are traditional in a game winning situation. Were we bailed out may be........... may be not. We won that is the end result, we are still a number two seed at this time, and leading the conference.
Jon shows signs of his old self. Defense is still strong, and Roy is still the nucleus of this team. Now on the darker side of the coin. Foul shooting.................enough said. Silly fouls almost cost us, wait a minute isn't that Tyler's MO? No because he didn't really didn't play that much. Pat full of energy yes......... body checking Nova's P/F to the floor in front of the ref .............NO! Summers riding the line as well. Roy should be demanding the ball at all times, as first option after they break the press plus rotate the offense. Increased turnovers are result of the press which everyone seems to hit us with now. Macklin could use more time on the floor with Roy, as well as Tyler. Rivers..........for every good play he does there two critical mistakes to follow next time may not be so fortunate. Tyler may not have handles but he is pound for pound the strongest guy on the team and will shake up the scene enough to get us back on track when we are stagnant. That being said increase Crawford a few more give Rivers a few less. Jessie Sapp.......... scary moment with the ankle lets pray little or no damage. Austin Freeman wasn't felt on the impact scale, his handles and passing have evaporated the last few games along with his aggressive red hot shooting. Mediocre opponent led us to a mediocre win. Won't be enough in March versus the heavyweights. The most important thing missing in hoya basketball is the killer instinct. Second half leads disappearing like high dollar magician in a cheap show. Cut the opposition's throat and be done with it.

[RDF]

The thing that frustrates me about this year's team:

1. Against pressure--they never get anyone to the middle of court--when you are getting pressed--bring up a big to the middle to form an offensive triangle--he is the guy you want ball to go to--that player (preferrably Ewing or Summers) has ability catch the ball and turn and attack or dribble out and feed the guards. Instead you see two guys go side to side with passes or throwing it up the sideline--which invites a tougher pass--gives defense an extra defender in the sideline and is a place the defense can trap.

2. Hoyas have no tempo to their game. It's slow and slower. You don't have to be a run and gun team to push the ball into the frontcourt. If you push it against press once in a while--the defense gambles and you have numbers/cause defensive confusion-as we saw on PE JR's open 3pt make in 2nd Half. Rivers and Wright do best job of pushing ball up into the frontcourt--Sapp does time to time and Wallace prefers to walk the ball up/play hot potato against pressure.

3. Guys have played with Roy for 4, 3, and 2 years now. How do they not know how to play off him effectively? If you give it to him-he's going to get a good shot for the team. The object of any offense is to give your team the best chance to score--so what is it about our players that they don't understand when Roy touches the ball--they score--when he doesn't they do not? I don't think the players "don't like" Roy--and even if they did--on the court that stuff doesn't matter--winning does. I think they like 95% of young AAU bred players have no clue how the game is played with a big kid on offensive end. Bigs make the game easier for you--not harder. You'll get better looks as a team. Especially when you factor in the big is hitting 60% of his shots and your team is struggling to score. Hibbert drew fouls--which helped team by getting to the FT line--which is all you can hope for--you have to make the shots--but it's nice to get to the FT line for attempts. Just don't get it.

4. I don't think anyone is "onto the Princeton/Georgetown offense". It's about execution and personnel. This year's team is more of a Pops-team--and as I've said since III took over--the #1 position you have to have in this offense--is a skilled PF/4 man. The "Jeff Green" role in this offensive system is the most critical. It brings more versatility and spaces floor better. Now we didn't see Hoyas light up scoreboards with Jeff around mainly due to the fact it was new to everyone involved-but if he were on this team--you'd see a high scoring machine. You will see that in future as well when you factor in the talent being recruited into the program and the personnel/fitting the system being used. Floor spacing gets better shots and more fluid offense. When your 4 man--can pass/shoot/post/draw and kick-that is a weapon in this system. Monroe is going to bring that dimension to Hilltop and when you add Wright--he brings more penetration skills as well--so you start having teams have to respect the drive/draw and kick game and ball movement improves--because the shots will be open and the guys at each spot on floor get better results.

5. Defensively--this team is giving beyond 100% effort and it's why they've won. I'm proud of every kid's effort/intensity and their teamwork on defensive end. They help each other and really get after it--and have improved like we all asked in terms of rebounding. No problem there. If they can start hitting more shots/running better offense--it'll just add to the defense because you play a lot more confident/energetic when you are knocking down shots.

6. Only negative about the defense--it never leads to easy hoops/transition points for Hoyas--and when you are as solid on that end as Hoyas have been--it should get you a couple of hoops each half.

7. We ask the questions all of the time--well what about some answers? I'd like to see more movement after Roy gets the ball--Dajuan cutting to rim--ala PE JR in BC game--would be nice--but it's important to know WHEN to cut. Wait until your man leaves to collapse on Roy-and then dive to rim--you either get a pass or are in good position for putback/rebound. Wallace played wonderfully off of Roy last night-and every FGA was solid for him-minus that hoist with shot clock running down-which wasn't his fault. The shooter/player up top when Hoyas are trying to enter pass from wing/sideline--can slide down and follow passer after entry/dive to rim--if you trail the passer on strong side--you'll be open 90% of the time--as defense collapses and watches ball-most guys let you go--it's just tough to not get caught watching and actually move without ball and when ball isn't near you--but it's an open spot and doesn't cost you floor balance as long as the other side rotates over and back as play is happening.

As many have said--this team appears to not be as good, yet we see spurts of great play--which is why I'm frustrated. As a fan you just want the team to peak/get to their best level and force teams to beat them-not give teams hope/chances by playing less then what they are capable. I understand the fans saying I'm too hard on the team--but it's only because you see guys ignoring the things that work for long spurts to make game harder then it should be. It's one thing to get beat when opposition plays great/shoots well--Cuse last year, Pitt making shots this year and last year at their place. It's when you help the opposition by not doing what you do well and not from their defensive effort but rather your own stubborness/inability to stick with your best opportunity to score the ball.

[hometownhoya72]

I am with you RDF time is marching on and our boys need to find a solution quick before the big dance

[BubbleVisionBiff]

Feb 12, 2008 15:08:11 GMT -5 RDF said:

4. I don't think anyone is "onto the Princeton/Georgetown offense". It's about execution and personnel. This year's team is more of a Pops-team--and as I've said since III took over--the #1 position you have to have in this offense--is a skilled PF/4 man. The "Jeff Green" role in this offensive system is the most critical. It brings more versatility and spaces floor better. Now we didn't see Hoyas light up scoreboards with Jeff around mainly due to the fact it was new to everyone involved-but if he were on this team--you'd see a high scoring machine. You will see that in future as well when you factor in the talent being recruited into the program and the personnel/fitting the system being used. Floor spacing gets better shots and more fluid offense. When your 4 man--can pass/shoot/post/draw and kick-that is a weapon in this system. Monroe is going to bring that dimension to Hilltop and when you add Wright--he brings more penetration skills as well--so you start having teams have to respect the drive/draw and kick game and ball movement improves--because the shots will be open and the guys at each spot on floor get better results.

7. We ask the questions all of the time--well what about some answers? I'd like to see more movement after Roy gets the ball--Dajuan cutting to rim--ala PE JR in BC game--would be nice--but it's important to know WHEN to cut. Wait until your man leaves to collapse on Roy-and then dive to rim--you either get a pass or are in good position for putback/rebound. Wallace played wonderfully off of Roy last night-and every FGA was solid for him-minus that hoist with shot clock running down-which wasn't his fault. The shooter/player up top when Hoyas are trying to enter pass from wing/sideline--can slide down and follow passer after entry/dive to rim--if you trail the passer on strong side--you'll be open 90% of the time--as defense collapses and watches ball-most guys let you go--it's just tough to not get caught watching and actually move without ball and when ball isn't near you--but it's an open spot and doesn't cost you floor balance as long as the other side rotates over and back as play is happening.

frazierfanatic said:

Add in the fact that our offense simply is not predicated on driving with the ball, and you are NEVER going to see frequent drives inside, no matter who we have or what they can do. What we really need to work on against these zones is flashing a man to the free throw line - Dajuan, PEJr, maybe even Austin - then letting them turn and have options - shoot the short j, dump down to Roy, or kick out to a guard for a 3. This requires quick and crisp passing, and a few ball- or head-fakes now and then to keep the D honest.

Frazier Fanatic posted in another thread, and I have been thinking about it quite a bit. As FF and RDF's posts above illustrate very well, our open shots are primarily supposed to come from movement without the ball.

While I would love to see more of what is advocated above (and fast!), I guess I am still wondering, what about movement with the ball? If the idea is that spacing gives you the opportunity to cut, screen, overload, confuse and then discard the defender, why can't the same types of things happen by dribbling quickly into the lane and looking for an open guy once the help defense comes? FF, I hear you: won't work with a zone. But we've seen enough teams go screen and curl just above the foul line with a quick guard (nova and SHU being recent examples). Some of that is by design (shoot on Roy, we dare you).

But why can't we do the same thing, just to shake it up once in a while, to get keep the Memphis and L'Ville guards honest and stop them from pushing us all the way back to half court? Jessie and Jeremiah can drive the ball, no doubt. Where do the back doors come from but from a dribble at a man?

If I can be succinct and play devil's advocate, what do we expect Chris Wright to do when he returns? Chuck it around the perimeter? Surely his quickness is going to be utilized more north-south than east-west.