TigerHoya
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Post by TigerHoya on Jan 20, 2008 0:02:21 GMT -5
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 21, 2008 16:27:19 GMT -5
I'll never understand why some are enamored with symbols commemorating treason in defense of slavery.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 21, 2008 17:51:01 GMT -5
I'll never understand why some are enamored with symbols commemorating treason in defense of slavery. Maybe because some (a lot, actually) people see the flag as "commemorating" something different than what you says it does. |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 21, 2008 21:33:13 GMT -5
I'll never understand why some are enamored with symbols commemorating treason in defense of slavery. Maybe because some (a lot, actually) people see the flag as "commemorating" something different than what you says it does. I'm sorry, did the southern states not commit treason against the United States to protect their rights to own black people? Did I learn about this event completely wrong? |
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 22, 2008 0:56:55 GMT -5
Yeah, Georgetown should change it's colors to blue and pink to avoid any possible support of treason.
I support taking the stars and bars off state flags, but you're being a prick, Bando.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 22, 2008 12:04:46 GMT -5
Maybe because some (a lot, actually) people see the flag as "commemorating" something different than what you says it does. I'm sorry, did the southern states not commit treason against the United States to protect their rights to own black people? Did I learn about this event completely wrong? Maybe that's how you learned it in first grade, but I think there was a little bit more to the civil war than just that. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2008 12:09:32 GMT -5
Yeah, Georgetown should change it's colors to blue and pink TEAL to avoid any possible support of treason. There, fixed it for you. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP!!! |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 22, 2008 14:28:12 GMT -5
Thompson drops out, to be filed under "Coming As A Surprise to No One. . ." www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UB4A7G0&show_article=1Be interesting to see if he backs McCain. That'd be a huge victory for McCain if he does. Thompson was never a factor in the race, sure, but he does have some pretty strong support from a lot of conservatives and could help put McCain over the hump. EDIT: Yes, I am blatantly trying to hijack this thread. Arguments about the Confederate flag are, for the most part, silly and pointless. It's a flag! If you're for banning it everywhere, then you should also be for banning desecration of the current US flag, which is also silly and pointless. |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 22, 2008 15:40:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry, did the southern states not commit treason against the United States to protect their rights to own black people? Did I learn about this event completely wrong? Maybe that's how you learned it in first grade, but I think there was a little bit more to the civil war than just that. There's not much more to the Confederate battle flag, though. It's a symbol of racism, oppression, and treason. Using euphemisms like "heritage" to disguise that fact is simply disgusting. The only Germans who think flying a swastika is a proper display of their "heritage" are neo-Nazis. Who said anything about banning it? If some racist wants to fly it on his own property, well then good for him. I'm not even saying it's illegal for the state government to fly it if they want to. I'm just saying that's stupid and racist. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 22, 2008 15:42:16 GMT -5
Maybe because some (a lot, actually) people see the flag as "commemorating" something different than what you says it does. I'm sorry, did the southern states not commit treason against the United States to protect their rights to own black people? Did I learn about this event completely wrong? Courtesy of www.snpp.com/episodes/3F20.htmlProctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War? Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter-- Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery. Apu: Slavery it is, sir. |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 22, 2008 16:18:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry, did the southern states not commit treason against the United States to protect their rights to own black people? Did I learn about this event completely wrong? Courtesy of www.snpp.com/episodes/3F20.htmlProctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War? Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter-- Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery. Apu: Slavery it is, sir. Are you seriously arguing that the Confederate battle flag is not a symbol of racism and treason? Simply because there were many causes to the Civil War does not mean the primary cause wasn't slavery. And simply because some idiot might claim "heritage" when flying that flag does not mean you can ignore it's history, where it almost exclusively has been used to promote racism and treason. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 22, 2008 17:07:21 GMT -5
Sigh.
The Confederate battle flag has been used by some as a symbol of resisting overt federal influence in state and local rights. It has also been used as a symbol of racism and treason.
There are a fair number of people who believe that the South got a raw deal because of bureaucrats in Washington who trampled on the rights of the states. They would invoke Jefferson and argue that they aren't treasonous and that the federal government was reneging on its contract with the states, and that when those states tried to leave, the federal government didn't let them.
I don't fully agree with the above, but it's good enough to make the Confederate flag a symbol of resistance to central government on its own (the Confederacy didn't have the monopoly on racism by a long shot). In that case, it's a version of "Live Free or Die" or Virginia's "Sic Semper Tyrannis" that says "I've left once, and I may leave again".
Importantly, there's no other good "resistance to government" symbol. The Confederate battle flag has been so imbued with this that it's difficult to divorce the two.
I amy not agree with those who believe that the Confederate battle flag is necessary to protest the influence of the federal government in their affairs, but I will defend to the death their right to fly it.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jan 22, 2008 17:34:21 GMT -5
This is a pointless debate. Obviously the flag means different things to different people. If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Most of those that I know that still think fondly of the confederate "Nation," think not in terms of slavery, although obviously that was a key factor. They think of it as more of a symbol of the South rather than the north. They think of it more in terms of being in the country rather than the big city. They think of it as representing what they still admire, and no, I'm not talking about slavery.
As for the war itself, those who think it was just about slavery and racism are as naive as those who fail to see that the flag is viewed by some as a symbol of slavery and therefore very offensive. There are more to each argument and both narrow minded views are wrong in my opinion.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 22, 2008 17:48:18 GMT -5
Sigh. The Confederate battle flag has been used by some as a symbol of resisting overt federal influence in state and local rights. It has also been used as a symbol of racism and treason. There are a fair number of people who believe that the South got a raw deal because of bureaucrats in Washington who trampled on the rights of the states. They would invoke Jefferson and argue that they aren't treasonous and that the federal government was reneging on its contract with the states, and that when those states tried to leave, the federal government didn't let them. I don't fully agree with the above, but it's good enough to make the Confederate flag a symbol of resistance to central government on its own (the Confederacy didn't have the monopoly on racism by a long shot). In that case, it's a version of "Live Free or Die" or Virginia's "Sic Semper Tyrannis" that says "I've left once, and I may leave again". Importantly, there's no other good "resistance to government" symbol. The Confederate battle flag has been so imbued with this that it's difficult to divorce the two. I amy not agree with those who believe that the Confederate battle flag is necessary to protest the influence of the federal government in their affairs, but I will defend to the death their right to fly it. Please cite what I'm sure are numerous instances where the Confederate battle flag was used "as a symbol of resisting overt federal influence in state and local rights" in an issue not involving race. Personally, I think when the federal government got involved in school integration and breaking up Jim Crow, that was a damned proper use of federal power. |
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 22, 2008 19:12:07 GMT -5
My great grandfather was a native of Ireland who immigrated and settled in the deep South in 1860. He owned no slaves. He married, bought property and began to start a life in his new country. The war came to his town and Federal forces began shelling all around him. He joined the Confederate forces and fought the Federals who were, to his mind, invading his hometown. He and his wife lost everything they had. So, the Confederacy is very much a part of my heritage and it had nothing to do with slavery.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 22, 2008 20:30:48 GMT -5
Please cite what I'm sure are numerous instances where the Confederate battle flag was used "as a symbol of resisting overt federal influence in state and local rights" in an issue not involving race. DUH! Have you never heard the tale of a couple of young men, challenging a corrupt and all-encompassing political power structure, armed only with their wits and their mobile symbol of the South, a Dodge Charger? They were good ol' boys. They wouldn't change if they could. And they were fighting the system like true modern day Robin Hoods!  Not to diminish easyed's personal experience on this issue, but I repeat that this argument is silly and pointless. And if it takes a detailed treatise on the political symbolism of the Dukes of Hazzard to illustrate that, then I will be happy to expound further. (on a more serious note, the use of the symbol by the Military Order of Stars & Bars, commemorating the service of those like ed's great grandfather and their families, has nothing at all to do with racism) |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 22, 2008 21:27:28 GMT -5
Some say that history is written by the victors. Indeed, recently the Iraqi flag was changed to purge it of Baathist/Hussein symbols. Afghanistan has likewise purged itself of the Taliban's flag. The swastika likewise has no place in official Germany these days either. And, to pick a civil war of sorts and one where the "good guys" lost, the present flag of Vietnam looks a lot like the flag of North Vietnam.
There may be an academic, relativist argument in favor of flying the flag in red states, but it rings a little hollow to hear this argument from some of the same folks who decry the patriotism of some blue staters for "not supporting the President" or worse.
On Ed's note, leaving the issue of service aside, the point as presented has everything to do with your family and personal history. In that case, what is more appropriate - advocating that the flag be displayed prominently in or around State Houses and at local parades or displaying it tastefully in your home or on your property?
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 22, 2008 23:27:36 GMT -5
Some say that history is written by the victors. Indeed, recently the Iraqi flag was changed to purge it of Baathist/Hussein symbols. Afghanistan has likewise purged itself of the Taliban's flag. The swastika likewise has no place in official Germany these days either. And, to pick a civil war of sorts and one where the "good guys" lost, the present flag of Vietnam looks a lot like the flag of North Vietnam. There are no swastikas in Germany because there's a law banning them. There would be no law banning their use if people weren't in fact using them. Iraq already scrapped the flag the United States tried to force on them, and Iraqis didn't exactly agree on the changes just made to the current standard. I can't say for sure, but I am guessing there are quite a few flags currently flying in Afghanistan -- including the Taliban flag -- other than the official flag. And your Vietnam example is just like the issue at hand. The Stars and Stripes is the official flag of the United States. No state flies any Confederate flag in its place. Do you know for a fact that no state/province/territory/whatever they are called in Vietnam incorporates the flag of South Vietnam in its banner? History just isn't as clean as you make it out to be, hence the present discussion. I'd like to add I am only posting again in this thread because I want to read Boz's treatise on those Duke Boys. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 23, 2008 0:02:52 GMT -5
According to Wikipedia, there is a law in Vietnam banning the South Vietnamese flag from being displayed publicly. There have been displays overseas, including one by President G.W. Bush.
The point is that southern displays in or near state houses give the confederate flag undue standing in our official, governmental discourse, whether or not it takes the place of the winners' flag. The idea of putting the Confederate Flag atop the State House with the Stars and Stripes says something symbolically about the Confederate Flag and gives it standing that was not won on the battlefield of the Civil War and in history.
My point was intended to be about government policy, although it could have been put more artfully and should have been more nuanced. In Germany, Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan, the point remains that the official governments have rejected the losers' flags as such in public spaces regardless of what individuals do on their own turf. Some of these governments, including Vietnam, purge losers' flags on private property.
The issue, as I understand it in this country, has less to do with individual displays on private property because most Americans recognize and respect others' rights in these regards. As with anything, some people will take part in this Confederate flag tradition for arguably genuine and good reasons, while others will not and support the racist, anti-American angle to it.
On the issue of rogue provinces, I would not know how to begin, although I would find it somewhat interesting if, like the SC government's previous position on the Confederate Flag, the local government in, say, Kandahar flew the flag of the Taliban.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 23, 2008 7:24:10 GMT -5
Ambassador:
I think that the law approach is the wrong one here - no one is really suggesting that the federal or state government ban the flying of the Confederate flag (right?). The issue is whether the NAACP and other organizations are right - in a moral sense - to demand that a state institution stop flying it.
It was interesting doing the research on this. Georgia switched its flag to add the Confederate symbol in 1957 and South Carolina started flying its flag over the state capitol in 1960. In both cases, it does not bode well for selling it as an instrument of state's rights. I think that SC's decision to fly it over a memorial for Confederate war dead rather than over the Capitol was a legitimate compromise that tied the flag to the Confederacy rather than saying "screw you" over Brown.
Interestingly enough, the one state that still keeps the Confederate flag as a part of its flag is Mississippi, who adopted it in 1894. With what I've read about Reconstruction, I'll grant Mississippi adopting the flag for legitimate, protest-related reasons.
In terms of private citizens flying the flag, some are undoubtedly doing it because they're racists. However, enough are doing it for other reasons to keep others from drawing conclusions.
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