hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 4, 2008 13:12:41 GMT -5
I don't know if that was a rhetorical question or not, but the answer is neither. Apparently, this deal was shaped by the Grizzlies' owner, who actually preferred Kwame to Odom because he wanted an expiring contract. Yeah it seems clear that the Griz wanted to build their franchise around Rudy Gay and not Gasol. Kwame they are going to be hideous this year but then they could have the chance to pick up some nice components in the draft. It seems that in this trade the Lakers are focusing short term, they want a championship this year or soon before Kobe passes his prime but the Griz are looking long term to establish a franchise with a fanchise player (maybe two if they get Beasley in the draft) I guess this depends how you define short term. Of the Lakers' 4 key players, Kobe is the oldest at 29. I think this deal figures to make the Lakers contenders for the next 5 years (probably less so this year due to integration issues once Bynum returns, but very much so next year). If I were the Suns in particular, I would be figuring I had better win now.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 13, 2008 16:06:13 GMT -5
Jason Kidd going to Mavs for Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, DaSonga Diop, Devean George, and one other player which I didn't see. Good deal for anyone involved? Kidd, Howard, Nowitski paired up with likes of Eddie Jones, and Juwan Howard likely getting minutes with Erick Dampier. Sometimes you make deals because other teams are improving. Sometimes you make deals because you THINK other teams are improved. Sometimes you make a deal just to make a deal You SHOULD make a deal to IMPROVE your team. That might be adding vets to get over top (Rasheed to Pistons) and sometimes that means it's time to rebuild for future. One thing I'll say-I'm a fan of Kidd's game-he makes others better--but I didn't think much of Dallas roster prior this trade and still don't despite adding a great player in Kidd. I'm not a Josh Howard fan--think he's okay-but not a top tier player. Kidd isn't a scorer/perimeter shooter-but neither was Harris--so that isn't a big deal. Kidd will get great looks for everyone and play good defense--but just don't see it mattering in Western Conference. Also--Ron Artest and/or Zach Randolph might be joining the Nuggets. This could be quite an "interesting mix" of characters. I would trade Nene back to Knicks for Randolph--because he'd give Nuggets a true low post scorer-and I'd add Sam Cassell to mix-but it looks like he'll eventually end up in Boston-where it's a 2 team battle between them and Pistons. If I'm Denver--Artest is a poor fit. He doesn't do anything on offense and while he's a good defensive player-the Nuggets are not--and you can't just get 1 guy to play d--it's got to be a team commitment. They'd be better trying to get Mike Miller to go with Zach Randolph and then your roster is: Camby Randolph Melo Miller Iverson Bench: Kenyon Martin, Chucky Atkins, Anthony Carter, and filler. I'm guessing Nuggets would give up JR Smith, Kleiza, Najera, and draft picks along with Nene. If they keep one of the group listed--I'd try to keep Kleiza or Najera. Denver's also interested in Kyle Lowry (don't know why?) and if they can't get Cassell--watch out for Karl's "guy" Gary Payton to be a possible addition. All I can say is Western Conference teams are "active" at Trade Deadline--and that makes things more interesting to follow. Don't know if it makes these teams better--but if you get Randolph or any post presence and a shooter with Iverson/Anthony--it is a tough cover. Miller would be a serious shooter from deep to kick it out to and Randolph can play--but would he be out of trouble? He's a man who can't avoid trouble. I view Nuggets as the Tark-UNLV of NBA-and can easily see them doing something like this--but Artest is serious rumor going around now--and that to me is a bad fit for their team's style of play but then again--who knows?
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Feb 13, 2008 16:18:37 GMT -5
Jason Kidd going to Mavs for Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, DaSonga Diop, Devean George, and one other player which I didn't see. Good deal for anyone involved? Kidd, Howard, Nowitski paired up with likes of Eddie Jones, and Juwan Howard likely getting minutes with Erick Dampier. Sometimes you make deals because other teams are improving. Sometimes you make deals because you THINK other teams are improved. Sometimes you make a deal just to make a deal You SHOULD make a deal to IMPROVE your team. That might be adding vets to get over top (Rasheed to Pistons) and sometimes that means it's time to rebuild for future. One thing I'll say-I'm a fan of Kidd's game-he makes others better--but I didn't think much of Dallas roster prior this trade and still don't despite adding a great player in Kidd. I'm not a Josh Howard fan--think he's okay-but not a top tier player. Kidd isn't a scorer/perimeter shooter-but neither was Harris--so that isn't a big deal. Kidd will get great looks for everyone and play good defense--but just don't see it mattering in Western Conference. Also--Ron Artest and/or Zach Randolph might be joining the Nuggets. This could be quite an "interesting mix" of characters. I would trade Nene back to Knicks for Randolph--because he'd give Nuggets a true low post scorer-and I'd add Sam Cassell to mix-but it looks like he'll eventually end up in Boston-where it's a 2 team battle between them and Pistons. If I'm Denver--Artest is a poor fit. He doesn't do anything on offense and while he's a good defensive player-the Nuggets are not--and you can't just get 1 guy to play d--it's got to be a team commitment. They'd be better trying to get Mike Miller to go with Zach Randolph and then your roster is: Camby Randolph Melo Miller Iverson Bench: Kenyon Martin, Chucky Atkins, Anthony Carter, and filler. I'm guessing Nuggets would give up JR Smith, Kleiza, Najera, and draft picks along with Nene. If they keep one of the group listed--I'd try to keep Kleiza or Najera. Denver's also interested in Kyle Lowry (don't know why?) and if they can't get Cassell--watch out for Karl's "guy" Gary Payton to be a possible addition. All I can say is Western Conference teams are "active" at Trade Deadline--and that makes things more interesting to follow. Don't know if it makes these teams better--but if you get Randolph or any post presence and a shooter with Iverson/Anthony--it is a tough cover. Miller would be a serious shooter from deep to kick it out to and Randolph can play--but would he be out of trouble? He's a man who can't avoid trouble. I view Nuggets as the Tark-UNLV of NBA-and can easily see them doing something like this--but Artest is serious rumor going around now--and that to me is a bad fit for their team's style of play but then again--who knows? Maurice Ager is the last player involved according to the ESPN article, and like George and Diop he's a cap filler. sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102Says that Stackhouse may well be back with Dallas but its interesting to note that in the arms race in the West that while Steve Kerr makes a rash decision to go big, Mark Cuban goes small. The scenerios that you show for Denver are interesting as well
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jacko
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Post by jacko on Feb 13, 2008 17:03:04 GMT -5
Some may not care for the Mavs, but my image of their potential dates back to the 2006 playoffs, when they were ripping sh-- up. So I know this (previous) roster was at least capable of doing great things. It's just too up in the air when you rely on jump shooting as much as they do.
As a Mavs fan and eternal optimist, I'll take Kidd for Harris, at least for the next 3 years. This takes away our scoring threat at the 1 position, but I think we gain more with Kidd's overall play than we lose from Harris. I think this move reeks of Phoenix's desperation. We know our window is closing (or closed) with this lineup as it is, so let's get a player who only really has a few good years left in him and try to make the most of it in the really short term.
George and Ager? Toss them in the pot too.
Stack and Diop? Uh oh... I'd be especially reluctant to see Stack go - he's a major leader on that team. And as for Diop, I don't think many would argue that a major deficiency of Dallas has been the center position. Between him and Damp, we almost have one good center, ha. But I would keep Diop and get rid of Damp any day. I guess we're putting a lot of stock into Brandon Bass's future (he's looking very good some nights).
But what this trade does to our team is that it gives us an incredible starting lineup in the 1-2-3-4 positions (Kidd, Terry, Howard, Dirk), but we have no 5 and no bench. I'm thinking this year's west playoffs will be kind of awesome from a neutral spectator perspective - none of these teams as they are have been tested (Phoenix, LA, Dallas, New Orleans), and the Spurs have no idea what to expect from any of these new lineups in a playoff series.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 13, 2008 20:12:38 GMT -5
As vcjack pointed out, the rumor is that the Nets will buy out Stackhouse, and that he will resign with the Mavs in mid-March. I think that's a big key to this deal, and makes it look much better from the Mavs' standpoint, because it would mean they are giving up Harris, two firsts and very little else. That's a deal worth taking a shot at. I will say, though, that in my view the Mavs need to do something about their hole in the middle (or hope that Dampier plays out of his mind) in order to come out of the West.
As for Denver, call me crazy, but I think acquiring Artest could work for them - at least for a year or so, which is all anybody can expect with Artest. He's a more than adequate third option offensively, and can d up with anybody. When you put he and Camby together, I have to wonder whether the entire team might not make a greater commitment to defense.
Edit: Just heard that Devean George has blocked the Kidd trade. This may be the most hilarious thing ever. Seldom used scrub blocks blockbuster deal.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Feb 13, 2008 21:36:17 GMT -5
hahaha
who the hell gave DEVEAN GEORGE a no trade clause?
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Post by hoyasaxact on Feb 13, 2008 22:09:18 GMT -5
How does George have the rights to block a trade? He couldn't have a no-trade clause in his contract could he? I don't know much about NBA contracts, but is there anything like baseball 10 and 5 rights where a guy automatically gets the right to block a trade?
EDIT: Apparently George has "early bird rights", which are, according to ESPN.com, "a provision earned by being in his second year and on his second contract with the Mavericks." I still don't really understand what they are, but at least we know he didn't have a no-trade clause in his contract.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 14, 2008 18:31:20 GMT -5
I can't believe this. What follows is exactly what I have been telling everyone since the Gasol trade went down - but BILL SIMMONS WROTE THIS in his mailbag today.
Will wonders never cease?
"Everyone kept evaluating the deal for how it would affect L.A.'s title chances this season, but I'm much more interested in the long-term ramifications: The Lakers getting the 27-year-old Gasol for the next four years and possibly beyond. Now they're set up as a title contender for Kobe's entire prime and have the best pair of young big men in the league (Gasol and Andrew Bynum), as well as someone who can score with his back to the basket and command a double team. You shouldn't just be able to stumble into someone like that. I don't think the Lakers can win this season because of Bynum's knee injury. But next year? They're the favorites."
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 19, 2008 20:47:52 GMT -5
Preah it, brother Simmons: These are all likable guys.
What's not to like about LeBron James? Dwyane Wade? Chris Bosh? Chris Paul? Deron Williams? Brandon Roy? Dwight Howard? Throw in Kevin Durant, Greg Oden, Gilbert Arenas, Monta Ellis and Al Horford, and you're talking about an entire team of likable and gifted stars under the age of 25. There isn't a bad apple in the bunch. From a historical standpoint, LeBron has a chance to be one of the best 10 players ever. Howard has a chance to be one of the best big men ever. And Paul has a chance to surpass Isiah Thomas as the greatest 6-footer ever.
Think about what a boost this has been for the NBA. Following MJ's first retirement in 1993, the ensuing 12 years were a gnarly stretch of wasted talent and wasted time. There were too many unlikable stars, too much crotch grabbing and chest thumping, too much sneering and posturing, too many rookies who weren't ready, too much expansion, too many "superstars" mailing it in for $15-20 million a year, too many injuries, too little scoring and too much defense. Many of the league's greatest players just didn't resonate with casual fans, personified by the fact so many fans were turned off by Allen Iverson, only one of the fiercest competitors in sports. You need luck with this stuff, and the NBA definitely had some luck lately, peaking with LeBron's progress as a competitor and person -- unquestionably the most important thing that happened to the league since Jordan's ascent. He's a killer now. He gets it. He plays hard on both ends. He doesn't take nights off. He takes over at the right times. He has a flair for the moment, as we saw with that game-changing dunk Sunday night.
As one NBA higher-up whispered to me last weekend, "People still think we have an image problem, I just don't get it. Do they even watch us? Do they see the caliber of the guys we have now?"
That's the issue gnawing at everyone working for the league right now. The NFL has considerably more thugs, Major League Baseball has a steroids scandal that basically has tainted the past 15 years of games, yet somehow the NBA is still perceived as the league with an image problem? For god's sake, if the NBA can't put that tag to rest this year, of all years, then it's never happening, and we'll have to accept there are deeper issues at work here.
(Well, one deeper issue. And you know what it is.)sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080219
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 11:09:58 GMT -5
Agree with Simmons 100% on all counts.
For whatever reason, I think the NBA will continue to struggle with this perceived image problem he references, along with the obviously ridiculous "they don't try hard until the playoffs" rant, for years and years to come.
To be honest, I think his "one deeper issue" might be at fault and that's pathetic.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Feb 20, 2008 18:43:12 GMT -5
Well the trade went through and Kidd will be playing for the Mavs immediately, as soon as tonight I think in New Orleans.
Devin Harris will be taking a break though before starting with NJ which is a shame because the Bulls are visiting the Garden State tonight and I wanted to see him tear Kirk Hinrich a new one (just out of spite for this season)
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 20, 2008 22:28:01 GMT -5
Did anyone else see Walton nearly kill Steven A. Smith during the half time of the Suns-Lakers game?
Stuart Scott got a little frazzled at the confrontation. He was also, perhaps a little indignant that he wasn't the one being loud and abrasive.
On a side note, do you think Steven A. Smith honestly believes he is a better authority on basketball than Walton? Hard to imagine, but I don't doubt it.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 21, 2008 0:50:26 GMT -5
Did anyone else see Walton nearly kill Steven A. Smith during the half time of the Suns-Lakers game? Stuart Scott got a little frazzled at the confrontation. He was also, perhaps a little indignant that he wasn't the one being loud and abrasive. On a side note, do you think Steven A. Smith honestly believes he is a better authority on basketball than Walton? Hard to imagine, but I don't doubt it. Walton is one of the greatest of all time--and I love his announcing. (it's an acquired taste for those who don't like to laugh) Walton forgot more basketball then Shaq will ever know. Shaq is the most dominant physical specimen to play basketball--but those days are long over and unlike Kareem--Shaq isn't as skilled. Thing is--they gave up 130 to Lakers tonight and Bynum didn't even play-when Bynum plays--that just provides more matchup problems for Phoenix/Shaq. Tony Parker/Duncan and you add Kurt Thomas to pick and roll/pick and pop game? Lakers and Spurs are my favorites in West right now--and I like Houston this year--although they have the cowardly McGrady who can tank on them at any moment. I don't like Dallas--but I never did. Kidd is an upgrade offensively over Harris--but at his age he can't guard anyone--see the performance tonight where Chris Paul TORCHED him. I don't like deal because I think Eddie Jones, Erick Dampier, Juwan Howard are STIFFS and Stackhouse, George, Terry, and Howard are role players. Nowitski is a great scorer--but he was getting his without Kidd-how does Kidd make him better and it makes them weaker on defensive end without Harris and Diop.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Feb 21, 2008 10:30:31 GMT -5
Shaq was better offensively than I thought he would be, he had a SICK pass to Amare out of the double team.
But he is a defensive liability, Yes he had some hustle and did well when people posted up against him but Gasol and Odom can hit a jumpshot from anywhere on the floor. I counted several times when Pau would slowly pull up on the elbows and Shaq would just stand there and let them take uncontested jumpers.
But enough of good basketball, how about the Sixers destroying the Knicks? Are the Knicks really that bad? (and how bad are the Wizards without Butler or Arenas since the Knicks beat them the game before?)
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Feb 21, 2008 10:39:48 GMT -5
NBA fans: is this Kurt Thomas trade good for Jeff?
All I've ever heard about Thomas since his days at TCU is "overrated talent, terrible attitude." So I'm guessing the answer is yes, but I don't know if that statement still holds water. Thoughts?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2008 10:52:35 GMT -5
I watched the game, but turned the channel during halftime (even though I LOVE Walton). Can anyone recap what went down between him and Screamin' A. Smith?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Feb 21, 2008 10:56:33 GMT -5
NBA fans: is this Kurt Thomas trade good for Jeff? All I've ever heard about Thomas since his days at TCU is "overrated talent, terrible attitude." So I'm guessing the answer is yes, but I don't know if that statement still holds water. Thoughts? Over the past few years, Thomas had picked up more of a rep of solid veteran big man, useful defender and rebounder, and a decent shooter who can play the pick and roll. He was not really taking minutes away from Green, and he was providing some defensive and rebounding cover, so in the short term I don't know how this deal helps. Since they got nothing back, I guess it may help with creating cap space for the future, which is really all Seattle/OKC has.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 21, 2008 11:35:31 GMT -5
Kurt Thomas is a Pro--he doesn't blow you away with anything but he's a fantastic post defender/uses his body well and is a good rebounder. He has nice jumpshot too and just knows how to play. I still don't know why Phoenix got rid of him. Shaq's offense will be fine--but he's going to do what you saw last night--around 14-15 pts and 7/8 boards, a ton of missed FT's and lazy fouls, and he's an AWFUL defensive player. What I still don't understand about this trade--Shaq has NEVER been a dominant defensive presence. His first year in Miami--the Heat would've went to the Finals if Riley would've used Mourning more in 4th quarter when you need stops and let's face it-Shaq wasn't going to get the ball much because he's a liability when someone fouls him--so you sacrificed defense for size/rep and Heat lost. Following year--Riley corrected things--rode Mourning's defense at key moments-and if not for Zo--Heat would've never won that title they have. You can call it being biased--I call it reality. Watch the games. Shaq was on fumes in the Finals that year and last year was shot by All Star Break. He looked better then expected last night--because everyone thought he was a stiff/washed up in Miami--which he was--and here's the problem--he was brought in for defensive presence-and Suns give up 130. Defense doesn't take "time" to adjust--if you are a great/good defensive player--your impact is felt immediately. In this deal--Suns lose Marion--who I never was enamored with--but he did fit what they did--and all Shaq will do is replace his numbers in ppg and get around same boards--but hurt your offensive game by limiting your finishers on break, taking your best perimeter/most versatile defensive player, and forcing your offense to be more of a halfcourt/spot up team. Nash can shoot--but when Nash is scoring--Suns aren't at their best. Defensively--Suns are/will be even more atrocious. Shaq/Stoudemire are terrible against pick and roll, Nash is the worst backcourt defensive player in league--a total liability. Guards get anywhere on court against him--and it's not like Nash is logging 40+ minutes-he does his "sit in" for long and key stretches of games and that will kill you against elite teams. Grant Hill played the best game I've seen from him in 10 years last night offensively--and by end of game he was broke--and got torched on defense. Raja Bell is a good role player--but he's going to be counted on as a key scorer--and that isn't his strength, and Diaw is a stiff. That guy made his rep off one year and has stunk since. If he plays--that changes outlook greatly. Barbosa has serious game and talent--but he's not a good point guard when Nash is down--he doesn't set up/make others better. If I were to rank the teams as true contenders in West, I'd go with: Lakers, Spurs, Jazz and Rockets--I have liked their team since opening day and Yao is quietly having a fantastic season. Suns, Mavs, and Warriors are the wildcard teams--they could be dangerous--or flame out and not make playoffs (Mavs and Warriors) and Nuggets are a total mess--I hate how their team plays when you consider what it takes to win Playoff games--they have wrong guys taking shots at all times, they don't understand how to play as a team, and they are mentally weak. In the East--Boston has surpassed anything I expected and I was completely wrong about them. Ray Allen has stayed healthy and proven to be much more effective as a player then I imagined he could be--and Garnett was great out of blocks. I still dont like his affinity to shoot jumpers at 7'1 and not take responsibility late in games--but he's got Pierce and Allen to take up slack for him. Detroit is still team I think comes out of East this year--I like how Stuckey/Afflalo are coming along--and their 2nd unit is strong for Eastern Conference team--especially once Lindsay Hunter returns--he was difference in first Boston-Pistons game. Cavs have LeBron and that is worth a puncher's chance despite the fact their front office is trying to imitate what Billy King/Larry Brown did to Iverson in Philly. Orlando-love Howard and Turkaglou but dont' believe in Rashard Lewis or rest of their perimeter guys. Think that Toronto is a dangerous team because if they get hot for a series--they can score and in East that is a dangerous team. Rest of the teams are garbage. Jeff Green should get to play more now that we're approaching final stretch of season. I think he's coming along fine--but he needs to work on his ball handling, shooting, and going up strong/aggressive more--too passive. His defense is advanced for a rookie--very good defender. I hate how Durant is progressing. He's just shooting ,shooting some more, and has no idea how to play/make other guys better. He's a liability on defensive end and so physically weak, it's going to take him 2/3 years to get tougher/stronger. I've got tickets to see Jeff come to Target Center on March 2nd--so I hope he's getting a lot more time on court and sees the ball some--which I doubt due to the mad bomber on his team.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 21, 2008 12:28:23 GMT -5
I watched the game, but turned the channel during halftime (even though I LOVE Walton). Can anyone recap what went down between him and Screamin' A. Smith? Walton begins monologue that is a thinly veiled sarcastic attack on Shaq for being out of shape and the trade being overhyped because Shaq is likable. Screamin' A interrupts Walton (big no no) with a shrill claim that he keeps repeating that Walton is just a "hater." Walton responds by attempting to continue his thoughts on Shaq, he will rebound and pass, but if anyone is stupid enough to double team him in the future (as Lakers did a couple times in the first half) they deserve to get beat off a Shaq pass. Screamin' A interrupts again saying that Walton doesn't know what he is talking about and that Shaq was very effective and that people have been "killing" this trade and Shaq will prove them all wrong. He then goes on to say that the only thing wrong with Shaq is the suit he wore to the All-Star game. At this point Stuart Scott begins to attempt to do some highlights from other game action, but can't get going because of the argument between Walton and Screamin' in the background. It's jumbled, but excerpts went something like: Walton who is angered at all the interruptions asks Screamin' "oh, so you're a fashion consultant..."as in I wondered why you were on tv, your credentials, etc. Screamin' takes the bait and begins to harp on his dress sense and is about to say something about Walton's dress when Stuart Scott interrupts with a "Hey, hey, I'm trying to say if you'll only let me get one little word in edgewise..." and continues on with some highlights. The look in Walton's face was amazing, as in I will pile drive you, you sniveling little terrier. He just got so annoyed that anyone would interrupt one of his monologues. You know, once that big booming voice gets started it gathers momentum, you mess with that and interrupt him with some yapping and you risk bringing the fury.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Feb 21, 2008 12:40:36 GMT -5
Steven A's arguing style cannot be beat
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