DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 9, 2007 11:17:17 GMT -5
2007 HOF BallotTony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr seem like locks. Jim Ed Rice? 53 votes short last time - he'd be the anti-steroid choice. McGwire? Let's not talk about the past... 
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 9, 2007 11:51:35 GMT -5
Gwynn, Rypkin and Gossage should be locks.
I'd vote for McGwire (he didn't break any baseball rules) while holding my nose.
The smart baseball analysts (e.g. anti-Boswells) say Blyleven, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith and Albert Belle (!) are legit candidates. Rice didn't play at a HOF level for very long.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2007 12:00:40 GMT -5
My ballot'd be (no particular order):
Gwynn
Ripken
Gossage
Blyleven
Trammell
Belle
I'd only vote for Belle since (a) he's not getting in and (b) he needs 5% to stay on the ballot and I'm not sure how I feel about him. Fantastic peak. Short career. Middle of steroids era. Not a good person.
McGwire will get the 5% easily, and I also want to think more about him. I don't really know how to handle the roids.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 9, 2007 12:25:21 GMT -5
Gwynn, Rypkin and Gossage should be locks. I'd vote for McGwire (he didn't break any baseball rules) while holding my nose. The smart baseball analysts (e.g. anti-Boswells) say Blyleven, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith and Albert Belle (!) are legit candidates. Rice didn't play at a HOF level for very long. I have trouble believing Albert Belle is a legit candidate. If voters have a problem with probable steroid users, they should have a problem with definite bat-corkers as well. www.oobleck.com/orioles/archives/2004/07/the_corked_bat_caper_ten_years.html |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2007 13:40:54 GMT -5
True, Austin. Though it's been proven fairly well scientifically that corked bats do squat. He still tried to cheat.
Babe Ruth has been found to have corked bats. Ty Cobb was accused of throwing a game. Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle took greenies.
Where's the line? On a corked bat for Belle?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 9, 2007 14:08:17 GMT -5
I also voted for Alan Trammell on the ESPN poll. I guess great minds think alike. Besides the obvious (Cal and Tony), I support Gossage, Blyleven and Rice (all long overdue), and I'm on the fence on Andre Dawson. But of course, I don't have a vote, so who cares what I think?
Albert Belle = Bum, but he certainly belongs on the ballot. He may not be a worse guy than Ty Cobb (who was?), but he also wasn't quite the player, either.
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 9, 2007 14:11:42 GMT -5
Results from ESPN:
Gwynn: 97.6
Rypkin: 98.53
Gossage: 71.2
McGwire: 23.5
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Jan 9, 2007 14:20:30 GMT -5
Where was Rice>?
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 9, 2007 14:21:08 GMT -5
True, Austin. Though it's been proven fairly well scientifically that corked bats do squat. He still tried to cheat. Babe Ruth has been found to have corked bats. Ty Cobb was accused of throwing a game. Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle took greenies. Where's the line? On a corked bat for Belle? Not into line-drawing, just pointing out the disturbing groupthink of the HOF voters. I think Rose should be in the Hall and I'd vote for McGwire, too. However, as a White Sox fan I really do hate Albert Belle (despite his 1998 season on the South Side) and will leap at the opportunity to point out his faults. |
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Jan 9, 2007 14:31:27 GMT -5
As an Orioles fan, I will leap to point out that he sapped the organization for over $10 million a year for 6 years without even taking a cut in the on-deck circle. Simply one of the worst contracts of all time.
And personally, I believe he could have still played. I don't think his injuries were that bad.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 9, 2007 14:31:26 GMT -5
Gwynn, Rypkin and Gossage should be locks. I'd vote for McGwire (he didn't break any baseball rules) while holding my nose. The smart baseball analysts (e.g. anti-Boswells) say Blyleven, Alan Trammell, Lee Smith and Albert Belle (!) are legit candidates. Rice didn't play at a HOF level for very long. I think Rice should be in. Also, if McGwire used steroids, then he did break a baseball rule. But since there's no direct evidence, then I'd vote him in. |
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 9, 2007 14:38:31 GMT -5
LinkCal Ripken Jr. 537 98.5 Tony Gwynn 532 97.6 Rich Gossage 388 71.2 Jim Rice 346 63.5 Andre Dawson 309 56.7 Bert Blyleven 260 47.7 Lee Smith 217 39.8 Jack Morris 202 37.1 Mark McGwire 128 23.5 Too lazy to format into a proper tableEdited to add: Belle didn't get 5%, so he's gone.
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Post by ExcitableBoy on Jan 9, 2007 15:19:04 GMT -5
Congrats to Ripkin & Gwynn. They were both clearly Hall-worthy and deserve the honor.
The only question I have is who on earth could be well-respected enough to vote people into baseball's hall of fame and not think that these two players deserved to be there. 98 & 97 % seems great but that still means a handful of people didn't deem these two hall-worthy!!
Were Cal's 2,600+ consecutive games not quite enough? Were Gwynn's 8 batting titles just shy of what's needed?
I would really really like to hear what kind of an excuse anyone could have for leaving these two off of their ballot.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 9, 2007 16:19:38 GMT -5
I would really really like to hear what kind of an excuse anyone could have for leaving these two off of their ballot. Baseball writers are snobs. "Babe Ruth & Ty Cobb didn't get 100 percent so no one ever will as long as my crusty old free food engorged butt is voting!" OK, more of a reason than an excuse. |
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 9, 2007 16:26:05 GMT -5
Congrats to Ripkin & Gwynn. They were both clearly Hall-worthy and deserve the honor. The only question I have is who on earth could be well-respected enough to vote people into baseball's hall of fame and not think that these two players deserved to be there. 98 & 97 % seems great but that still means a handful of people didn't deem these two hall-worthy!! Were Cal's 2,600+ consecutive games not quite enough? Were Gwynn's 8 batting titles just shy of what's needed? I would really really like to hear what kind of an excuse anyone could have for leaving these two off of their ballot. Here's one article looking at the voting practices of baseball writers... www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2007/01/09/baseball_election_process_is_an_imperfect_game/ |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2007 16:43:24 GMT -5
Jim Rice is beyond overrated. The day he gets into the Hall -- and he will, given I think almost everyone who has gotten 50%+ has gotten 75%+ eventually -- the quality of players in the Hall will decrease.
There's a Hall of Very Good somewhere for Rice. But he isn't HOF worthy. Trammell, Blyleven, Gossage, Belle, Rock Raines (eligible next year) and several more are better options, IMO.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2007 20:23:47 GMT -5
MVP voting is not a good reference about how good anyone is since most years it involves looking at the RBI leaders.
To compare Trammell's numbers to Rice's directly is to ignore the value of a shortstop versus a corner outfielder.
Rice played in a hitter's ballpark in a big media center. He knocked in a bunch of runs. His peak is nice, but Albert has three years that much better than Rice's best, IMO. Though I'd say the two are close.
Trammell, though...
Four gold gloves. Career OBP the same as Rice's -- in a tougher environment at a more valuable position. Had better slugging than league average -- again, at SS.
Larkin and Trammell both deserve in. Looking merely at who went before, these folks are the best hit/field combos to stay at SS since Arky Vaughan. But they are dwarfed by a better player -- Cal, and the so called Holy Trinity afterwards (2/3 of which will not go down as SS).
I think where we differ is that I give a lot of positional credit. SS don't hit like corner outfielders -- they need to be evaluated differently.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Jan 9, 2007 21:03:38 GMT -5
Nobody has mentioned the Hawk.
Looks like he'll get in eventually. Count me among Andre's Army.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 9, 2007 21:55:00 GMT -5
Only one thing need be said about the value of the Gold Glove- Derek Jeter has two.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 9, 2007 23:51:52 GMT -5
Trammell is significantly better than Davey Concepcion, who was a mediocre player who received accolades because his teammates were really good.
I think voted awards -- All-Star appearances, Silver Sluggers, Gold Gloves are basically useless.
Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove in a year where he DHd. Davey Concepcion's Reds onc comprised the entire all-star team in a well-known job of ballot-stuffing by the Cincinnati faithful. For years, no one could win multiple MVPs. One year, Joe Gordon won it over Ted Williams. Willie Mays won it a couple of times instead of the eight or so he deserved. Derek Jeter has won Gold Gloves.
Davey Concepcion has a career OBP of .322! -- 11 points lower than the League OBP.
Davey Concepcion has a career SLG of .357! -- that's 33 points lower than league average.
Alan Trammell had a career OBP of .352 -- 22 points higher than league average.
Alan Trammell had a career SLG of .415 -- 14 points higher than league average.
Concepcion has a small stolen base edge, and possibly a defensive edge. But it isn't enough in my mind to make up for 33 points of OBP and 47 points of SLG over twenty years.
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