Changes At Mass

[DFW HOYA]

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2079034

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

"My big concern is people are going to feel like they're being jerked around. They finally got used to the English translation and now they have to get used to another translation," said Rev. Thomas Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University and a Jesuit priest.

"It's going to cause chaos and real problems and the people who are going to be at the brunt end of it are the poor priests in the parishes who don't need any more problems."

I think he hit the nail on the head.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

The familiar "Peace be with you" / "And also with you" exchange between a priest and his congregation, for example, becomes "Peace be with you" / "And with your Spirit" in the updated version.

I don't care if its closer to the Latin text, I liked the old version better. I thought it really conveyed the message of the gospel and I'm not going to stop saying it. The more I read of this story the angrier I get.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

And Georgetown and liberal Catholic favorite Cardinal Arzine is behind the move.

Sweet, now I know who to think for a new stupid Order of the Mass that reads like my high school translations of Vergil and Catullus. Translations need to be both literal and convey meaning in a way that makes sense in the syntax and colloquialism structure you are translating into - this sacrafices one for the other.

[SoCalHoya]

Don't we have more important things to focus on in the Church? I love going back to the original Latin, but this is pretty low on the priority list.

[SFHoya99]

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. This is not as bad as spending sessions of Congress renaming cafeteria foods, but it is pretty bad.

[Filo]

If I can borrow a concept from another thread... Wow, is the entire leadership of the Catholic Church that out of touch? Can't they work on some more progressive ideas to perhaps revive the Church, like letting priests marry and letting women become priests (priestesses?).

[EasyEd]

Over the past 30 years there have been several changes to the words of the Mass. For a few weeks it forced you to read the missal to know the right words to use. After that, no big deal. This will be the same way. In the end, no big deal.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

ed said:

Over the past 30 years there have been several changes to the words of the Mass. For a few weeks it forced you to read the missal to know the right words to use. After that, no big deal. This will be the same way. In the end, no big deal.

There have been small differences. And to be honest if you attend mass in a different parish they may read an Order of the Mass with a slightly different wording. But this is a re-translation of the document that all of these versions are based on and it would change several well-known parts of the Order of the Mass which have been unchanged. Its also very poorly timed.

That aside - Benedict XVI who was supposed to be a caretaker Pope has done some pretty big things in terms of calling the synod and this retranslation.

[EasyEd]

For those who are not familiar I'd like to describe the Mass before the 60s or so, in order that you might see that the proposed changes today are minor.
1. The Mass was in Latin.
2. The altar was against the front wall of the church and the Tabernacle was in the middle of the altar.
3. The Priest said Mass with his back to the people.
4. The Mass started with the Priest and altar boys kneeling at the foot of the altar where the Priest said "The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar", including the Confiteor (I confess).
5. The Mass included the Collect and the Epistle.
6. All readings from the altar were made by the Priest. No other religious or lay person was permitted to do any of the readings (exception: an ordained Deacon could do non-Gospel readings).
7. The Gospel readings included much of the "thee, thy, thou, etc.).
8. The Priest's comments after the Gospel were called the Sermon and were not confined to commenting on the readings of the day though they usually did so.
9. Many, many of the prayers of the Mass of that time frame no longer are used.
10. The words "Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory...." was not used.
11. There was no "Now let us offer each other a sign of peace". The "Kiss of Peace" did not exist.
12. The Priest was the only person allowed to distribute the Holy Eucharist. No other religious or lay person. In fact, the Priest was the only person allowed to handle the Chalice.
13. At Communion, the congregation came forward and knelt at the altar rail, a rail at the foot of the altar. The Altar rail had a cloth attached to it and the congregation pulled the cloth over its hands while receiving Communion. The altar boys held a paten under the chin of the person receiving Communion in case a host fell.
14. After Communion and after some additional prayers the Priest said the Last Gospel which was the beginning of the Gospel of St. John and started "In the beginning was the Word..."
15. After leaving the altar following the Last Gospel, the Priest and altar boys returned to the foot of the altar and knelt. The Priest then said three Hail Marys, the prayer starting "O God, our refuge and our strength..." and the prayer to St. Michael "St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle..."

The above is only a partial list.

Looking at the things that have changed over the last 40 years it's hard to imagine that the few changes now contemplated will be anything other than a blip on the radar.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

ed said:

For those who are not familiar I'd like to describe the Mass before the 60s or so, in order that you might see that the proposed changes today are minor.
1. The Mass was in Latin.
2. The altar was against the front wall of the church and the Tabernacle was in the middle of the altar.
3. The Priest said Mass with his back to the people.
4. The Mass started with the Priest and altar boys kneeling at the foot of the altar where the Priest said "The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar", including the Confiteor (I confess).
5. The Mass included the Collect and the Epistle.
6. All readings from the altar were made by the Priest. No other religious or lay person was permitted to do any of the readings (exception: an ordained Deacon could do non-Gospel readings).
7. The Gospel readings included much of the "thee, thy, thou, etc.).
8. The Priest's comments after the Gospel were called the Sermon and were not confined to commenting on the readings of the day though they usually did so.
9. Many, many of the prayers of the Mass of that time frame no longer are used.
10. The words "Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory...." was not used.
11. There was no "Now let us offer each other a sign of peace". The "Kiss of Peace" did not exist.
12. The Priest was the only person allowed to distribute the Holy Eucharist. No other religious or lay person. In fact, the Priest was the only person allowed to handle the Chalice.
13. At Communion, the congregation came forward and knelt at the altar rail, a rail at the foot of the altar. The Altar rail had a cloth attached to it and the congregation pulled the cloth over its hands while receiving Communion. The altar boys held a paten under the chin of the person receiving Communion in case a host fell.
14. After Communion and after some additional prayers the Priest said the Last Gospel which was the beginning of the Gospel of St. John and started "In the beginning was the Word..."
15. After leaving the altar following the Last Gospel, the Priest and altar boys returned to the foot of the altar and knelt. The Priest then said three Hail Marys, the prayer starting "O God, our refuge and our strength..." and the prayer to St. Michael "St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in battle..."

The above is only a partial list.

Looking at the things that have changed over the last 40 years it's hard to imagine that the few changes now contemplated will be anything other than a blip on the radar.

That is an excellent recap of some of the things that changed at Vatican II. I happen to like the changes made by the Second Vatican Council - they were changes that would have been made in the 1940's when the council was first called but the war kept the council from meeting - so I don't really buy the 40 years thing. Also they were reforms that were over due IMO. The fact that much has changed at one point in the past does not mean that it is prudent to change things now - that's not sound logic.

[EasyEd]

St. Pete, I never even implied that this list implied that further change was warranted. I merely stated that the changes anticipated were small compared to changes in the past. Also, the fact that much changed at one point in the past does not mean that it is NOT prudent fo change things now - that's not sound logic.

For the record, I don't like the changes but it's not a big deal.

Also, I think it is perfect timing for announcing any changes since it's the off-season, before the Kenner League, and we have time to talk about it.

[Frank Black]

sfhoya99 said:

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. This is not as bad as spending sessions of Congress renaming cafeteria foods, but it is pretty bad.

The Titanic sank. The Church is the indestructable mouthpiece of God. I would choose a different analogy.

[DFW HOYA]

stpetersburghoya said:

I don't care if its closer to the Latin text, I liked the old version better.

Well, it is the older version, sort of...

The issue here is the rest of the Catholic world uses texts that the U.S. does not. If you've attended Mass in Spanish you would know that they already use many of these responses. The Vatican has looked at "and also with you" and other 1970's-friendly translations as foot-dragging by the U.S. bishops.

Anyway, it was adopted. Catholics generally are leery of change in any form, but this too will pass.

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/16/MNGKOJF8QS1.DTL

[Nevada Hoya]

And just as I was getting used to the Nicene Creed. And Ed, I don't remember an altar cloth to pull over your hands, when going to Communion. I remember the paten, but not the cloth.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Ed, I understand that a lot of these changes were made in the 60's and 70's pursuant to Vatican II. I am also aware that in other languages the Roman rite (I have no idea about the Byzantine - have only been to one Byzantine rite mass in my life) mass is closer to the new translation - the Russian is apparently very close to the Spanish. Just keep in mind that for many American Catholics under 30 - of which there are many in the US - we have never prayed the mass another way - and this will be a big change for us just like it was for all American Catholics post-Vatican II.

[SoCalHoya]

I agree with ed (see!) that this changes are small. I don't question the validity of the changes, I question the priority they were given.