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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Oct 4, 2005 12:13:28 GMT -5
If a planet ceases to exist can it be considered to still have the right to an embassy? And doesn't the planet of Krypton first have to be recognized before it can formally post an embassy? I believe that the fortress of solitude may have been a de facto embassy, but it was not a de jure embassy per se and is not covered by any of the customary and treaty international law regarding embassies.
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Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Oct 4, 2005 12:19:50 GMT -5
Of course that is only if you assume that interplanetary law is the same as international law. Personly, I feel that our legal system should treat forgein planets differently than forgein nations. The real question here is if Superman should be treated as an American or a citizen of the whole Earth.
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dTRAIN
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Post by dTRAIN on Oct 4, 2005 12:57:35 GMT -5
OK, let's put aside the issue of whether the Fortress of Solitude is part of Krypton or not. Even if you assume that it is part of 'earth', it is at the North Pole. Does anyone know what nation has jurisdiction over the North Pole?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Oct 4, 2005 13:10:07 GMT -5
I think it would have been a model for the entire Polar Region if democracy and rule of law were given a chance to flourish at the Fortress of Solitude.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Oct 4, 2005 14:20:41 GMT -5
You know Superman can run a 1.3 in the 40-yd dash...
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 4, 2005 14:31:38 GMT -5
I think everyone is getting way ahead of themselves here....
Who says they died? I didn't see any bodies. Maybe the crevasses in the Fortress of Solitude are prisons, kind of like the jails in Tron?
Or maybe they were just severely hurt, and Superman came back for them later after he had returned Lois Lane to Metropolis. The point is, no one knows that they are dead at the end of the movie.
For that matter, why is the diner in Superman II listed in the script as "Alaskan" diner? Assuming any humans could walk back from the polar ice cap where the Fortress of Solitude is located at all (or that Lex Luthor could get there on a Miss Tessmacker-sled), you'd want the route to be as short as possible, meaning traveling through Greenland or the Queen Elizabeth Islands, not through Alaska. An Alaskan diner would be the last place I'd expect to find Clark and Lois if they were returning from anywhere near the actual North Pole.
And since when are roofie-flavored kisses part of Superman's arsenal of powers?
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Oct 4, 2005 15:01:53 GMT -5
Superman did 33,767 reps with 225lbs...shattering the NFL combine record...
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Post by Frank Black on Oct 4, 2005 15:50:20 GMT -5
The North Pole would have to be either Canadian, Russian, or American. We are obviously making some assumptions here, but I simply don't see how these now mortal aliens could have survived such a fall which we saw was at least 20 feet. Superman must have been well aware of this, ditto for Lois. It is also likely that Superman's fortress falls under US jurisdiction given that Krypton is no more and he has resided in the US since infancy. So I would have to suppose he is guilty of murder. And what a wretched example for the kids.
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doublehoya
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Post by doublehoya on Oct 4, 2005 19:00:26 GMT -5
Didn't Zod, et al fashion themselves as military men(and woman)? Wasn't he "General" Zod? As such, he was an enemy combatant, and should be treated as such -- he wore the figure skating uniform, he has to have been willing to die for the honor of his unitard army.
Also, just because they no longer had super powers didn't mean they weren't still dangerous and deserving justice, Superman-style. Lex Lutor had no superpowers, yet he was dangerous.
Great, great thread, by the way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2005 19:07:19 GMT -5
Superman did 33,767 reps with 225lbs...shattering the NFL combine record... YEAHHHHHH!! He ran a 1.3 40-yard-dash, too... If you wanna see Terrence Stamp's (Zod's) best performace, do yourself a favor and go rent "The Limey." Soderberg at his best.
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Post by Frank Black on Oct 4, 2005 19:21:20 GMT -5
You can't kill enemy soldiers when the battle is over (unless they pose a potential future danger perhaps). Zod and the others were clearly no longer a danger, and should have been carried back to the US to stand trial. Not summarily executed. What is the matter with you people? I like Superman and his regular joe armpit sweat stains as much as the next guy, but I won't look the other way at homicide.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2005 19:25:42 GMT -5
My thoughts on Superman's citizenship et. al. :
1) Presuming Jack McCoy were prosecuting The Man Of Steel, my guess is he'd find out about his dual-identity as Clark Kent (with a little help from Lenny Briscoe). In that case, the argument would likely center on the fact that Clark Kent is a US citizen (pays taxes, into Social Security, has a diver's license, likely some sort of birth certificate doctored by his Earth parents, has a residence he pays property taxes on, etc.). If Kent is a US citizen, so is Superman ("People of the State of NY v. Clark Kent aka Superman" for example). So there's jurisdiction.
2) Zod was, in fact, a general - and one who posed a clear and present danger to the USA. Enemy combatant, terrorist, whatever you call him, a bad guy I doubt Superman would get prosecuted for killing. I'm not sure it matters his powers being gone matters. Think of it this way: say Al Qaeda comes out tomorrow and says "we give up, we're ceasing all hostilities." But then three weeks later Bin Laden is walking down the street in Anytown USA, when Joe Citizen runs up to him, beats the hell out of him, and kills him. You think a case could be made that he was no longer a threat? Knowing Zod better than anyone, I'm sure Superman was of the belief that even without his powers Zod would go to great lengths to enslave Earth - especially since he'd teamed up (somewhat) with Lex Luthor. If that were the argument presented to me using any "reasonable person" legal standard, I'd have to find for Son Of Jor-El.
And I don't think that even if a murder DID occur in the Fortress of Solitude any American court would maintain jurisdiction over it. Isn't the traditional language something along the lines of "his Fortress of Solitude at the North Pole" or something to that effect? If its on some ice shelf or other geologic formation, could we somehow apply international maritime law to the situation? Like if a crime were committed in Antarctica? If it were in Alaska or Canada that's a different ballgame...
3) Can someone give specifics on the deaths again? I remember the power-reversal moment, but I thought the three were thrown back into that weird trapezoidal prison-like thing and flung back into outerspace?
4) Worst Film Ever = Superman 4 with Jon Cryer ("Woaaahhh.... Uncle Lex!")
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 4, 2005 21:13:47 GMT -5
If you like Superman II (and I do), never, never get talked into watching Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. What about Smallville on the WB, where Stamp is the voice of Jor-El? Holy switch hitting Batman!
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Oct 4, 2005 21:49:55 GMT -5
2) Zod was, in fact, a general - and one who posed a clear and present danger to the USA. Enemy combatant, terrorist, whatever you call him, a bad guy I doubt Superman would get prosecuted for killing. I'm not sure it matters his powers being gone matters. If we are to consider Zod a general then he is subject to the Geneva Conventions. If Zod was no longer a threat and had been removed from the battlefield and could have been detained then he most likely would have fallen under the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. The international community has come to recognize these principles as being crystallized in the 1949 Convention and are thought to exist in customary international law irrespective of any nation not being a signatory of the treaty. Since Zod would be taking "no active part in hostilities ... [and] removed from combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause" he would have the right to be "in all circumstances treated humanely" - a concept which includes a prohibition on "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture". Clearly Superman aka Clarke Kent is a war criminal by virtue of his actions directed against General Zod. Also, international law would clearly apply to Superman because he is on the earth and we are assuming that he will be tried in a court room on earth - meaning that he is subject to the laws which states create domestically and which they create through diplomacy. Also, I would gladly testify to his 40 speed at his war crimes trial.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 5, 2005 23:40:20 GMT -5
2) Zod was, in fact, a general - and one who posed a clear and present danger to the USA. Enemy combatant, terrorist, whatever you call him, a bad guy I doubt Superman would get prosecuted for killing. I'm not sure it matters his powers being gone matters. If we are to consider Zod a general then he is subject to the Geneva Conventions. If Zod was no longer a threat and had been removed from the battlefield and could have been detained then he most likely would have fallen under the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. The international community has come to recognize these principles as being crystallized in the 1949 Convention and are thought to exist in customary international law irrespective of any nation not being a signatory of the treaty. Since Zod would be taking "no active part in hostilities ... [and] removed from combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause" he would have the right to be "in all circumstances treated humanely" - a concept which includes a prohibition on "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture". Clearly Superman aka Clarke Kent is a war criminal by virtue of his actions directed against General Zod. Also, international law would clearly apply to Superman because he is on the earth and we are assuming that he will be tried in a court room on earth - meaning that he is subject to the laws which states create domestically and which they create through diplomacy. Also, I would gladly testify to his 40 speed at his war crimes trial. Well, as Zod was not a member of a military whose government signed the Geneva Convention...the United States is not beholden to its restrictions when dealing with him.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Oct 5, 2005 23:46:39 GMT -5
Depends on whether you view the Geneva convention as just a treaty or whether it has come to codify a particular element of customary international law.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 6, 2005 10:17:39 GMT -5
Depends on whether you view the Geneva convention as just a treaty or whether it has come to codify a particular element of customary international law. Good point. The current administration would definitely not view it as a binding treaty in this case. However, arguments could be made either way on whether ol' Ronnie would have applied it more liberally. Perhaps with the cold war and the impending threat of interstellar war, the Reagan administration would: a) take a hard line and not apply it; or b) concerned about the welfare of their own soldiers, apply it voluntarily.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Oct 6, 2005 10:33:04 GMT -5
I think part of the point has been missed: guilty or not guilty, what would any possible comsequences be? Jail? Death Penalty? Can't do anything to Superman that he doesn't want you to do. Unless he agreed to be incarcerated (in which case only his conscience would be holding him) I would have to agree with the earlier statement that Superman IS the law (sorta like Judge Dredd).
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hoyahoyasaxa
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Post by hoyahoyasaxa on Oct 6, 2005 10:45:50 GMT -5
The could trick him and incarcerate him in a jail made of kryptonite before trying him.
However, as a plea bargain, perhaps he could offer to reverse time to the moment before he killed them.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 6, 2005 11:36:58 GMT -5
They would have to place him in the Phantom Zone, that floating piece of "glass" that General Zod and his cronies were trapped in.
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