hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
Posts: 2,604
|
Post by hoyatables on Oct 23, 2006 19:55:39 GMT -5
The problem, in my opinion, is that every couple of years the University administration bans one of our traditions. You look at schools like Harvard, MIT, and Stanford, and their administrators bend over backwards to find excpetions to rules and adapt traditions to changing times. For some reason, at Georgetown the higher-level administrators are wary of the controversy caused by some of our traditions and ban them outright. Then they try to replace them with crappy, watered-down alternatives: Georgetown Day replaces Block Party, Traditions Day replaces actually letting us explore campus, not stepping on the seal replaces stealing the clock hands, etc etc etc. Even not stepping on the seal is fairly new. As I understand it, the seal was only put in for the Bicentennial in 1989. It's disappointing to find out that the "hallowed traditions" we supposedly follow were instituted a few years ago and might be gone by the time our children come here. Hell, we weren't even the Hoyas until relatively recently, we've only had a "Jack" for a short time, and Healy Clocktower doesn't even have real bells in it. One problem might be that there are no competent guardians of traditions on campus. The Stewards don't do anything to disseminate real traditions among the campus as a whole (ditto with the insular, peripheral groups like DPE), most of the long-standing clubs constantly change their traditions, NSO and the CSP are fairly new and controlled by the administration, and we don't have fraternities or established societies/secret societies/eating clubs. Students here have no organizations that aren't controlled by the University. Talking to alums from thirty or forty years ago, it's pretty obvious that my experience on the Hilltop bears almost no similarity to theirs. Hopefully as Georgetown continues to become a more high-profile school, this will change. But some kind of student civil society that straddles the line between being an official campus, "access to benefits" group and being a secret/irrelevant society must be allowed for this to happen. Otherwise, how will be pass down our traditions? What matters in my mind is not how long the traditions have actually lasted, but rather how the students perceive them. For most undergrads, the seal, basketball, etc were firmly in place by around the time they were born. In their minds, these things are traditions because they are older than themselves. And as I said, I think its impressive for something to last 20-30 years, let alone more.
|
|
hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
Posts: 2,604
|
Post by hoyatables on Oct 23, 2006 19:56:52 GMT -5
It's hard to say whether Hoya Blue will continue for years as a true "tradition" like some might argue the Cameron Crazies have become, or will cease to exist at some point down the road. Hoya Blue ain't ceasing to exist at any point down the road, at least not if me and my army (007, SoCal85, RB, bridget, nyhoya) have anything to say about it. We've actually built the club so that it can exist for long after we're gone, hopefully. If you don't think we've already successfully infiltrated campus culture, 007 and I have a huge Hoya Blue bannner adorning our Village A rooftop apartment. Because of it, when tour guides come up there, they are FORCED to talk about us. Run for Rigby is pretty nice, I've missed it the past two years for various reasons but I hope to participate in it this coming year. Hey, I was there at the very first organizational meeting in 1998, and I want to see it succeed. I'm just saying, only time will tell whether it lasts.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,805
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 23, 2006 20:31:30 GMT -5
Do they still do that talent show thing? What was that called?
|
|
|
Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Oct 23, 2006 21:43:36 GMT -5
No one's answered my question. What are some other schools long standing traditions? Or are we bemoaning the lack of something that doesn't actually exist anywhere?
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,821
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 23, 2006 22:14:02 GMT -5
|
|
Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,583
|
Post by Nevada Hoya on Oct 23, 2006 22:53:00 GMT -5
The Rat Race? The slave auction (females would "buy" Georgetown freshman and have them as slaves for the day). Oops, both long gone. BTW, I missed both freshman year, as I was on a retreat.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,805
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 23, 2006 23:01:06 GMT -5
Pots and Spoons.
|
|
hoya01
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 169
|
Post by hoya01 on Oct 24, 2006 0:12:16 GMT -5
Many of our peer institutions have deep rooted traditions. UVA has many including streaking the quad before graduation and the generosity of their secret societies, most notably the 7s. Princeton has traditions around their eating clubs. The Harvard-Yale game. UPenn has Hey Day. I'm certainly not an expert on traditions, and while I'm not advocating exclusive secret societies or eating clubs or fraternities, I very much agree that we do not have stewards to usher the traditions down to the next generations. Hoya Blue is certainly changing this.
|
|
Gold Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,578
|
Post by Gold Hoya on Oct 24, 2006 10:14:04 GMT -5
I knew it wouldn't take DFW long to bring out Texas A&M.
I'm not familiar with Notre Dame but I'm sure they have a bunch.
|
|
|
Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Oct 24, 2006 11:32:29 GMT -5
Many of our peer institutions have deep rooted traditions. UVA has many including streaking the quad before graduation and the generosity of their secret societies, most notably the 7s. Princeton has traditions around their eating clubs. The Harvard-Yale game. UPenn has Hey Day. I'm certainly not an expert on traditions, and while I'm not advocating exclusive secret societies or eating clubs or fraternities, I very much agree that we do not have stewards to usher the traditions down to the next generations. Hoya Blue is certainly changing this. While HB has done some for preserving traditions I think that should be a real focus in the future, even beyond sports. I would like to see Cuse Week become a tradition including throwing oranges at cutouts of Boheim and the most hated player of the time. While we may not have an incredible amount of traditions I think we have a strong Georgetown culture which is evident any time you talk with a non student/alum. For instance I have a professor from Notre Dame who is teaching here for the year and is puzzled during many basic conversations because of terms like hoya saxa, tombs, red square, leos, hoya blue, etc. Also how has no one mentioned drunk late night Philly Pizza runs?
|
|
|
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Oct 24, 2006 12:00:35 GMT -5
Philly Pizza hasn't been around that long SoCal. Please keep throwing the oranges.
|
|
|
Post by HfieldHoya08 on Oct 24, 2006 17:12:19 GMT -5
As a tour guide I can say we DO talk about Hoya Blue for sure on the tours...I always point out CAHoya/007's sign (and all the other Hoya stuff that is plastered to the door of their place...), and most tour guides (myself included) give a hard sell for hoya sports (esp. basketball) later on in the tour as well.
|
|
|
Post by HometownHoya on Oct 24, 2006 18:05:51 GMT -5
Homecoming!...well at going to football games, not exactly a tradition (one of the legends of where Hoya Saxa comes from is from watching a game)
The phrase itself is sortof like a tradition- Hoya Saxa
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,821
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 24, 2006 19:20:00 GMT -5
I knew it wouldn't take DFW long to bring out Texas A&M. I didn't go there, of course, nor did anyone in my family, but I give credit where credit is due--there is not a public university in this nation with the fiercely loyal community A&M engenders through its traditions, which isn't easy when you school's population is 45,000. One thing they also do well is in keeping ties post-graduation. They do a ton of networking for graduates, and it's an expectation that whgen students graduate, they will maintain ties to help other "former students" (alumni) in need of a job. There are literally some businesses in Texas where a A&M class ring can get someone an interview sight unseen. Outwardly, the schools share little in common. Texas A&M is a place where all the buildings look like New South, it's 100 miles from the nearest large city, and it's not a place for students interested in social action or multiculturalism. But it does use its traditions to build a lifetime of support for the school, and to that, Georgetown could take a cue from places like A&M, like Princeton, like (coughing loudly) Notre Dame where traditions aren't relics of the past, they're signposts for the next generation.
|
|
|
Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 24, 2006 20:56:00 GMT -5
Of course, some would argue A&M's overemphasis on tradition is a crutch. The May 2004 cover of Texas Monthly read: "Texas A&M faces its worst nightmare: Change." Snips of the cover article, "Corps Values," by Paul Burka, follow. This is a campus that is organized around doing the same things in the same ways for decade after decade, and the adherence to tradition has produced a sense of loyalty and unity and a love for the institution that is the university's greatest asset. And yet, this distinctive culture has implanted in the Aggie psyche a fear of change that at times can be the university's greatest problem. Now is one of those times.
[M]any students and alumni have mixed feelings about the goal. They worry that in achieving academic prestige, A&M will evolve into an elitist egghead institution—that intellectual Aggies won't be real Aggies and that the things that make A&M unique, like adherence to tradition and an emphasis on developing leaders, won't matter anymore.But no subject is studied so intently on the College Station campus as the fabled Spirit of Aggieland and the traditions that maintain it. Spirit is a concept that most college students leave behind in high school—but not at A&M. Aggies past and present regard it as the essential element that makes their school different from any other. Consequently, the vitality of their traditions is under constant surveillance for signs of backsliding. Do students still greet visitors and each other with the requisite "Howdy"? (No.) Will the closing of the aging but much-loved Hotard residence hall next year lessen the respect for Aggie traditions? (Yes.) Has the suspension of Bonfire following the 1999 tragedy irreversibly diminished the Aggie experience? (Absolutely.) These are serious matters at A&M. They are debated among students and in the widely read Mail Call section of the student newspaper, the Battalion. Every departure from the past is an omen for the vigilant that their school isn't what it used to be, and most Aggies ask nothing more of Texas A&M than to remain the same. But it can't. Even the Corps of Cadets, which to outsiders appears to be immune to change, is going through a painful self-examination of its role and relevance at the university as its membership continues to dwindle.
The promotion of mainstream values starts at the top, with president Gates—who said recently in an official statement, "Our culture is grounded in patriotism, religious belief (however expressed), loyalty to family and to one another, a hard work ethic, character, and integrity"—and permeates the Aggie community, right down to the student-run summer orientation program for incoming freshmen known as Fish Camp. What is striking about these values is that they are personal rather than intellectual; most major university presidents, I suspect, would put open-mindedness and respect for ideas at the top of their list and leave patriotism and religion as matters of individual, rather than institutional, choice. This difference defines the distance that separates the University of Texas and A&M, which sometimes seems more like one hundred years than one hundred miles—and each university is perfectly happy with its choice.
To visit A&M is to see its values on public display. You're unlikely to run into male students with facial hair or female students with body piercings. You won't see a lot of frayed shorts or jeans that are worn-out at the knees. The appearance of the students is tidy and so is that of the campus, thanks to near-universal adherence to unwritten rules. Students who come across a wayward piece of trash pick it up. Students who consider taking a shortcut across a lawn resist the urge, lest they trample the grass. No Aggie would forget to take off his gimme cap upon entering the Memorial Student Center, which honors Aggies who fell in battle, and if a visitor did so, he would quickly be told to remove it. Sometimes, though, the enforcement of values by self-appointed guardians can go to absurd extremes. A male student recently wrote a letter to the Battalion relating how three members of the Corps of Cadets tried to hector him into giving up his aisle seat on a campus bus to a girl standing nearby, even though a number of middle seats were vacant.
The most frequent comment that then-president Ray Bowen heard from Aggies, however, was not that A&M had to improve but that it shouldn't be trying to emulate those schools. "He caught a lot of flack for comparing us to Berkeley," a longtime A&M administrator told me. "They said, 'Why do we want to be like a school that has a bunch of hippies and protesters?'"
A FORMER FACULTY MEMBER ONCE described Texas A&M to me as "part university, part military school, part employment office for retired generals, and part cult." The latter aspect grew out of the obsession with traditions and the disdain for those who didn't participate—or, worse, questioned or flouted them. Anyone who fell into this category was known as a "two-percenter." In the days when just about every student was male, from a small town, and in the Corps, the tiny fraction of dissidents was close to accurate. Today, says student body president Matt Josefy, "'Two-percenter' is undergoing a redefinition. It used to be somebody who didn't stay at a football game. Now we realize that every tradition isn't going to be bought into by everyone. Some students will never buy into Aggie football. Which traditions are important is a personal decision." Of all the changes coming out of A&M, this one may, in the long run, be the most important. It is sacrilege to say so, but for too long tradition has been the tail that wagged the educational dog. A&M's two most revered traditions, Bonfire and the Corps, gave responsibility to student leaders but also gave them license. That's why Bonfire is unlikely to return to the campus in its old form, and that's why the Corps can't attract and keep recruits. Tradition has become a trump card that overpowers everything, even the diversity issue. "I have to say I am a bit confused about the issue of diversifying A&M and how that would cause a loss in traditions," a student wrote in a letter to the Battalion. "Can a black person not whoop? Can a homosexual not stand as the Twelfth Man?" The upholders of tradition say that it is what makes A&M unique, that it is responsible for the sense of family that unites Aggies everywhere. Challenge this view and you will likely hear another longtime A&M adage: "From the outside, you can't understand it. From the inside, you can't explain it." This response does not sit well with, among others, Robert Gates. "I hate that line," he told me. "We need to tell our story." If, after 127 years, the loyalty and love that Aggies so demonstrably feel toward their institution depends on resisting change that is necessary for the university to take its place among the nation's best—something that the people of Texas desperately need for it to do—it's reasonable to ask whether traditions are worth it after all.I should say that I do respect A&M traditions, and I think Aggie Muster is best alumni tradition at any school, ever. But what I think the above excerpts demonstrate is that tradition (and particularly a saturation of tradition) can create inflexibility as well. One might argue that GU has the problem of overflexibility -- the English department's course list while I was on campus is a good example -- but GU's liberal intellectual tradition attracts some of the best professors available. TAMU, on the other hand, remains a primarily white state university (despite its location in a diverse state) with a military tradition, which scares off top academic talent. For me, the best traditions at GU are those associated with the campus. Sitting in John Carroll's lap, stealing the clock hands, etc. I loved telling friends about these traditions when they visited me at Georgetown. I remember the campus fondly whenever I am back in town and walk through it. I think, if anything, I'd like to see GU's homecoming and reunion traditions strengthened, and see more events that encourage alumni to return to campus. If just the students participate, is a tradition really a tradition? One of the most important traditions for Notre Dame alumni is returning to South Bend for football games in the fall. I flew from Chicago to Austin last Sunday night and O'Hare was filled with alumni and their children sporting Irish gear. I'd like for there to be something similar for GU. I think GU could make a website with GU traditions as lengthy as Princeton's. The "traditions" section at this useful website is a good start. Speaking of, another tradition I've always wanted to see brought back is the older version of the "Hoya Saxa" chant. Maybe if we get a good turnout for the Homecoming football game, the older alumni could teach it to the Hoya Blue admins.
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Oct 24, 2006 21:51:52 GMT -5
As a tour guide I can say we DO talk about Hoya Blue for sure on the tours...I always point out CAHoya/007's sign (and all the other Hoya stuff that is plastered to the door of their place...), and most tour guides (myself included) give a hard sell for hoya sports (esp. basketball) later on in the tour as well. I used to give the "hard sell" for the basketball team at the rooftops portion of the tour, although I was a B&G tour guide in 02/03 and 03/04. It was...ummm...yeah, pretty hard sell. (PS to CA: in addition to HB infiltrating campus culture and B&G tour guide speeches, I think a thinly veiled brag infiltrated your post! ;D )
|
|
hoya01
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 169
|
Post by hoya01 on Oct 25, 2006 12:42:55 GMT -5
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,821
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 25, 2006 12:57:50 GMT -5
Interesting suggestion: Should Georgetown move Homecoming to the winter during a basketball game? Turnout would certainly increase. See response. www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm(And in the interests of full disclosure to AustinHoya's article above, Paul Burka is a UT alum and an adjunct faculty at the law school. Some good points notwithstanding, asking a UT alumnus to ponder Texas A&M's future is a little like asking Bo Schembechler what he thinks about Ohio State.) Strange comment on the faculty. Any academic that would be "scared off" by teaching amongst cadets is either intellectually dishonest or politically warped beyond repair. Conversely, Georgetown pats itself on the back far too much on the diversity front, especially in light of the numbers concerning faculty.
|
|
|
Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 25, 2006 14:18:07 GMT -5
(And in the interests of full disclosure to AustinHoya's article above, Paul Burka is a UT alum and an adjunct faculty at the law school. Some good points notwithstanding, asking a UT alumnus to ponder Texas A&M's future is a little like asking Bo Schembechler what he thinks about Ohio State.) Full, full disclosure: Paul Burka graduated from Rice, not Texas, with a B.A. in history. He is a graduate of UT Law School. He is, however, not an adjunct professor at the law school. He is listed on the law school website as "extended faculty," and co-teaches one course on political campaigns at the LBJ School of Government that is also open to law students.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,821
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 25, 2006 15:14:15 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying this. The Google citation gave him a little more credit than was required.
|
|