thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 22, 2004 7:53:05 GMT -5
Oh yeah- you must be right, Mega is doing his best Ilie Nastase with the little campers. Last I heard he was coming back to NYC- so he'll probably be in too... As ever, football season can't come soon enough for me.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Aug 24, 2004 16:12:56 GMT -5
Just a couple of follow-up points:
1) GU was #9 in USNWR Graduation and Retention Rank, tied w/NW and MIT and besting places like Penn, Columbia, UVA and Cornell.
2) GU was #16 in USNWR selectivity rank, tied w/Cornell and beating NW.
3) GU was #18 in Alumni Giving, tied w/WFU and Columbia at 33% alumni participation (see, there's a reason why target participation is 34%!)
4) GU was #36 in financial resources rank and #43 in faculty resources rank. Again, money, money, money is what hurts GU in these rankings.
5) GU had an all-important "peer assessment" score (25% of the overall rankings) of 4.0 on a scale of 5.0 being best. That tied it with GT, U of Ill. and Emory, just behind Vandy, UT-Austin and Wash. U and just ahead of ND, USC and UWash. DFW was absolutely right on this point: too many academics don't perceive GU as a major power because of historical weaknesses in its graduate programs in terms of producing solid numbers of prestigious scholars. This and the financials are what drag down GU's overall ranking in the mag.
If you toss in the national liberal arts schools, GU has an overall SAT 25-75% ranking of 28th, tied w/Cornell, Vassar and Wesleyan, just behind JHU, CMU and Emory and just ahead of W&L and Haverford. If you just count the "national universities," it's 19th overall.
For those who obsess on the rankings, the answer for a potential GU resurgence (sort of like the surge it had in the post-Ewing days; a hot streak not unlike what Wash U and USC are undergoing today) is getting boatloads of cash in the endowment, plain and simple. If GU had Washington's or Emory's endowment, it would easily be top 10 in the rankings.
Some other rants: I love Penn, wife and I did our graduate work there, but there's no way it's the 4th best national university for undergraduates. Ditto for Duke at #5. I agree 100% with bin that UChic. is vastly underrated at #14. JHU is also underrated at that same position. Ditto for Rice at #17 and Berkeley at #21. #11 Wash. U is the beneficiary of a great admissions marketing campaign and a very large endowment. UVA at #22 just ahead of GU is probably a tad underrated. And don't get me started with Vandy and ND at #18, both WAY too high....NW is also a tad overrated at #11....
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 24, 2004 18:02:34 GMT -5
I also agree that Berkeley is significantly underrated- probably should be in the low teens. And Northwestern being ranked ahead of Chicago is nothing short of a joke- it would be almost like GW being ranked ahead of Gtown.
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Aug 25, 2004 9:57:13 GMT -5
I always felt that if you transferred the law school rankings to the undergrad rankings, it would be more accurate (but moving Michigan/Berkeley/and Virginia, as undergraduate programs, into the mid-teens). You would also have to add Princeton, CalTech and MIT into the mix, too.
Aside from that...even if we don't believe the USNWR rankings are accurate, they matter. Kids see them. More importantly, their parents see them. I would very much like to see the Uni try to address these problems. Though money is definitely an issue, I don't think it is the only issue and perhaps a reinvigorated discussion would flesh out some opportunities for us to progress.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 25, 2004 10:55:16 GMT -5
What is with all the love for Chicago? I know they have a great reputation in academic circles, but that is not the only thing these rankings attempt to measure. Chicago (and JHU) are both really lacking in other aspects that most 18 year olds consider important, and there is a reason why 4 of 5 students who are admitted to both GU and Chicago would choose to attend GU. Chicago is a great graduate school, but these are rankings of undergraduate programs, and therein lies the problem with some of these rankings. As an undergraduate school it is just as possible to argue that Chicago is overrated.
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Post by PushyGuyFanClub on Aug 25, 2004 11:50:10 GMT -5
Exactly. I was abroad with some kids from Chicago and suffice to say, they were not socially well-adjusted. I think the rankings need to be taken with a grain of salt. Aside from some of the top programs, Harvard, Stanford, usw., people should pick schools that are strong in anticipated areas of study. I wanted to do English, but not cultural English, and Government -- GU fit that bill (although the English Department is increasingly becoming a worthless cultural studies department -- for another debate). If I wanted to research sciences, I don't think GU would crack my top 50. Places like SUNY Stony Brook and UT-Knoxville, which have nearby national research labs,would be the better choices. However, those schools have problems that keep them entirely from the national rankings.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Aug 25, 2004 13:54:43 GMT -5
Apologies for the formatting, but enclosed is last year's (9/25/03) WSJ "ranking" of undergraduate institutions by how well they fed the better law, business and medical schools. Question, if you will, the methodology but GU ranks #17 with liberal arts colleges thrown into the mix as well. BTW, Chicago comes out at #14 although I was not aware that 4 of 5 students, when admitted to both places choose GU (that's very impressive for the Hilltop). And ND, WashU and Emory are way down on the list as well...
RANK SCHOOL CLASS SIZE # ATTENDING FEEDER SCORE COMMENTS Ranking the Colleges... ...for getting into Yale Med, Chicago Business and all those other elite business, medical and law schools. Below, our list of the top 50 “feeder schools,”<br>based on our count of how many of their alumni started this fall at 15 select grad programs (see “Behind the Rankings”). The rankings are based on the number of students a college sends to a grad school divided by the college’s class size—our Feeder Score. THE TOP 50 FEEDER SCHOOLS 1 Harvard University Cambridge, Mass. 1,666 358 21.49% There’s no such thing as a sure bet. But for getting into a good grad school, a Harvard bachelor’s degree remains the next best thing. 2 Yale University New Haven, Conn. 1,286 231 17.96% What happened to school loyalty? More Yalies (40) are going to Harvard Law thisfall than Yale Law (30). 3 Princeton University Princeton, N.J. 1,103 174 15.78% One of the few Ivies without its own professional school, Princeton held its first grad-school fair last year. 4 Stanford University Stanford, Calif. 1,692 181 10.70% Based on our numbers, does a particularly strong job at spawning future MBA stars; med school could use work. 5 Williams College Williamstown, Mass. 519 47 9.06% An up-and-comer for some time, this “Little Ivy” did better than many of the actual Ivies. 6 Duke University Durham, N.C. 1,615 139 8.61% Studentsdo well here but may take their time; only 25% of graduates here go immediately to a professional school. 7 Dartmouth College Hanover, N.H. 1,101 93 8.45% Recently put its“credentials file” online to help students track recommendation letters from professors. 8 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge,Ma. 1,187 92 7.75% One of the best on our list at getting kids into business school, including more than two dozen into Harvard Business this fall alone. 9 Amherst College, Amherst, Mass. 431 33 7.66% Encourages use of grad-school advising services even after graduation. 10 Swarthmore College Swarthmore, Pa. 336 25 7.44% Enrollment has tripled in seven years for an honors program here that’s meant to mimic grad school with small seminars. 11 Columbia University New York 1,652 118 7.14% You’d think undergradshere would have an edge getting into itselilte law and medical schools. But several other Ivies sent more students. 12 Brown University, Providence, R.I. 1,506 98 6.51% Sixth-ranked Ivy tilted toward law in our figures; no formal pre-law program. 13 Pomona College, Claremont, Calif. 362 23 6.35% One of our bigger surprises. Nearly half of undergraduates say they’re going straight to grad school, up from 32% last year. 14 University of Chicago Chicago 948 59 6.22% Has 11 of its graduates at Wharton this year; its business school has new program encouraging seniors to return to Chicago for their MBA. 15 Wellesley College Wellesley, Mass. 585 35 5.98% Close to the Crimson: Pre-business association has field tripsto Harvard Business, where eight alums started this fall. 16 University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia 2,785 153 5.49% Penn’s medical school (not one of our survey schools) has the highest percentage of Penn undergrads in six years. 17 Georgetown University Washington, D.C. 1,666 85 5.10% Its highest numbers were at Harvard Business and Harvard Law—12 studentseach this fall. 18 Haverford College, Haverford, Pa. 291 13 4.47% Recently reinstated a grad-school orientation program. 19 Bowdoin College, Brunswick, Maine 404 16 3.96% Now has online service to help kids compile grad-school applications. 20 Rice University, Houston 764 29 3.80% President Malcolm Gillis says numbers in “surprising “ findings seem low. 21 Northwestern University Evanston, Ill. 1,978 73 3.69% Feeding itself: New option gives incoming freshmen in the undergrad engineering program a slot in at business grad school, too. 22 Claremont McKenna College Claremont, Calif. 271 10 3.69% Aspiring lawyers could do worse: School’s students landed at Chicago, Harvard, Michigan and Yale law schools. 23 Middlebury College Middlebury, Vt. 660 24 3.64% Officials say it’s a “feeder” for Dartmouth’s MBA, but our survey turned up only two alumsthere this fall (10 are at Harvard B-school). 24 Johns Hopkins Univ., Baltimore 1,272 45 3.54% Med school remains the most popular grad choice here. 25 Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. 3,565 115 3.23% Increased funding to advise women and minorities on grad school. Spokesman disputes “lasting meaning” of our survey. 26 Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, Pa. 310 9 2.90% Grad-school history: One of the first Ph.D. programs for women in the U.S. 27 Wesleyan University Middletown, Conn. 731 21 2.87% Within five yearsof graduating, 80% of Wesleyan grads wind up at some form of graduate or professional school. 28 California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, Calif. 249 7 2.81% Lighter on law than most in our top 50. 29 Morehouse College, Atlanta 501 14 2.79% Thisall-male, traditionally black college saysit has has actually scaled back student trips to top Northeast grad schools. 30 University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Mich. 5,720 156 2.73% Grad schools in our survey “should pay a bit more attention to geographic diversity,” honors-program chief says. 31 New College of Florida Sarasota, Fla. 113 3 2.65% At this “honors college” of the Florida state schools, professorsgiv e “narrative evaluations” instead of letter grades. 32 Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, N.Y. 581 15 2.58% Says it’s good for future doctors, but none at Harvard or Yale this fall. 33 University of Virginia Charlottesville, Va. 3,213 82 2.55% The No. 3 public college on our list doesn’t have a university-wide honors program. 34 United States Military Academy, West Point, N.Y. 966 23 2.38% Chief executives, Army-style: A surprising showing at Harvard Business (13 students this year) boosted West Point’s score. 35 University of Notre Dame South Bend, Ind. 1,985 45 2.27% Less success at medical schools than some others in our group. 36 Emory University, Atlanta 1,509 33 2.19% Dean says of ranking: “Ivy begets Ivy.”<br>37 United States Naval Academy Annapolis, Md. 986 21 2.13% All business, sir: The bulk of its grad-school students ended up at Harvard, MIT and Wharton business programs. 38 Macalester College St. Paul, Minn. 406 8 1.97% Less widely known than some Eastern liberal-arts colleges, it pushes internships in health-care to help med-school prospects. 39 Brandeis University,Waltham, Mass. 815 16 1.96% School says it’s bringing in top grad schools for admissions fair. 40 Bates College, Lewiston, Maine 417 8 1.92% Taps alumni to help students get key internships. 41 University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, Calif. 6,198 118 1.90% Saysits kids are accepted to top grad schoolsin far greater numbers than choose to attend. 42 Barnard College, New York 588 11 1.87% Placed much lower than Columbia, the Ivy it’saffiliated with. 43 Trinity College, Hartford, Conn. 485 9 1.86% Grads of this liberal-arts school seemed to favor MBA programs. 44 Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa 337 6 1.78% For kids interested in a specific grad program, networking program ties them with an alum who attended or worked there. 45 Tufts University, Medford, Mass. 1,246 22 1.77% Far from tops in Boston, but still edged out Boston College (No. 79). 46 Colby College, Waterville, Maine 471 8 1.70% LagsMaine rivals Bates and Bowdoin. 47 Washington University, St. Louis 1,709 29 1.70% Made our top 50, but one of the more expensive schools on our list (tuition is $28,300 a year). Says it’s “very successful” at placing students. 48 Washington and Lee, Lexington, Va. 413 7 1.69% No New Haven: School made our cut—but nobody at Yale Med or Law. 49 Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland 729 12 1.65% They’re working on it, with new annual conference giving advice on applying to graduate schools. 50 Reed College, Portland, Ore. 304 5 1.64% Sure, Carnegie Mellon—No. 51 on our list—had more students (19) get into our top schools, but Reed had slightly higher success rate.
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Post by reformation on Aug 28, 2004 9:18:27 GMT -5
If the univ admin was either pleased or unconcerned about their ranking, they would have posted it already on the university's website(they always did in the past).
BTW, they have also not yet posted(on the main site at least) that there is a new med school dean, which seems pretty ridiculous. They seem to be embarassed by both news items.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 23, 2004 10:18:55 GMT -5
I'm sure the admin is nervous. Rankings heavily influence applications. Regardless of our reputation, many students will just go by rankings. Lower application rates lower your ranking...less applications...cycle continues.
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Post by nocalhoya on Sept 24, 2004 17:34:15 GMT -5
Also noticed that one section of the rankings (faculty resources perhaps?) adjusts for the cost of living of the university's location. I'm sure this boosts Wash U, ND, Duke, even UVa at the expense of Stanford, GTown, NYU, more urban (expensive) areas.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 27, 2004 10:10:48 GMT -5
I have to take issue with the claims that Berkeley is underrated. One of my best friends went there undergrad and visited Georgetown once during my time their. He was shocked that as a sophmore most of my classes were either seminars or 30 student lectures. He said that he had never been in a course with less than 200 students. This was second semester sophmore year! Another friend of mine, who went to Chicago and is now a PHd candidate in Poly Sci at Berkeley hasn't taken her quals but is already teaching a course at Berkeley. She also has been asked to write numerous recommendations for students in which she TAs becuase the students have little to no contact with the professors. I'm sorry, but this remains one of the big differences between state schools, no matter how good, and private universities. No matter how well regarded the professors at Berkeley are, it means nothing if TAs are doing the majority of the work and the students have trouble getting in touch with the professor.
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