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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Nov 19, 2005 20:02:46 GMT -5
Now that its official and Georgetown has finished with one of the worst offenses in the country and a record that does not reflect the talent that is on the team - the university has to be asking itself some important questions:
1) Is the football program going to show a return on the investment that the University is making in the program with the MSF construction project?
2) Is Coach Benson the right person to lead the Hoyas to a Patriot League title?
3) Why does the team have an apparent lack of some fundamental skills (e.g. discipline - a large pass play was negated in this game by an unsportsman-like penalty; a high number of late hit penalties this year; he DB/Lineman who makes a hit after a 10+ yard gain and then celebrates like he won the lottery; and the atrocious tackling - no one really "sticks" anyone, they all just grab on and hope the RB/WR/QB falls)?
4) How can Georgetown over-haul its abysmal offense?
5) How can Georgetown better use the student-atheletes that it has? - We hada former UNC QB and a DE in line for the sack record when we began the season and failed to utilize them in any way that translated to an improvement of the team in relation to last year.
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Post by showcase on Nov 19, 2005 21:22:31 GMT -5
I don't know, but I think this offseason is a crossroads. I agree that the AD needs to take a good, long, hard look at this program. The team's been recruiting for the PL for years now, and there has been no measurable improvement, or even signs thereof, for several seasons now. If the Department and university administration is content to have a team that is the League's punching bag, then so be it. But I think there's a lot more talent on this team than we've seen in the results on Saturday afternoon.
For what it's worth, I don't think the answer lies in yet another staff reshuffling. This team needs more than a tweaking.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 20, 2005 2:31:44 GMT -5
I wanna start by saying this is my first year seriously paying attention to Georgetown football (though I played and followed HS for a long time and have always followed IA football), so I am not the most qualified to answer such questions, but will weigh in anyway.
1) Is the football program going to show a return on the investment that the University is making in the program with the MSF construction project?
I dont have the numbers but I can't imagine so. Despite not being huge in terms of capacity, MSF I know is very costly to construct. And what kind of revenue is our football team drawing. While we have good lax and I like our soccer team, football is the revenue sport, and I really doubt the team is ready to draw in the MSF. The only 2 games this year at which Georgetowns attendence has been decent were the MSF opener and Homecoming, and both of those had things in addition to the game that drew crowds. The other games have had attendence that was pretty weak. Were not even really coming close to selling out the home side these days. When you consider that students are getting in free, the visiting team is definitly bringing in more revenue for the AD than Hoya fans. And thats pretty bad, since these people are primarily coming from Upstate NY, North Carolina, NYC, Pittsburgh, and Nowheresville, PA.
2) Is Coach Benson the right person to lead the Hoyas to a Patriot League title?
I can honestly say that I HATE to see bad things happen to good people, and by all accounts Benson is a really good guy.... BUT.... well, I don't think I need to finish the sentence...
3) Why does the team have an apparent lack of some fundamental skills (e.g. discipline - a large pass play was negated in this game by an unsportsman-like penalty; a high number of late hit penalties this year; he DB/Lineman who makes a hit after a 10+ yard gain and then celebrates like he won the lottery; and the atrocious tackling - no one really "sticks" anyone, they all just grab on and hope the RB/WR/QB falls)?
See #2
4) How can Georgetown over-haul its abysmal offense?
Many ideas have been bandied about... I personally think the spread would be cool, but good coaches adapt their system for their personnel. I have seen it happen many times at the high school level, and I believe its less common in college because you generally recruit players who fit the system you run, but its certainly possible. At the very least, they need to open up the play book a bit (which they started to do, a little, late in the year) because the current system is extremely bland and unimaginative for the most part.
5) How can Georgetown better use the student-atheletes that it has? - We hada former UNC QB and a DE in line for the sack record when we began the season and failed to utilize them in any way that translated to an improvement of the team in relation to last year.
Interesting... Not 100% sure. Nick is an excellent athlete but he has looked BAD of late. I am a fan of his, but Im honestly not sure if its him or the system. I think he is still definitly the starter next year. Someone once said that with his size and speed he should go to tight end, but I just dont think hell have enough impact there. It's like that old pop warner theory-- put your best athlete at QB and hope for the best. Nick was an awesome talent in HS, good enough to get a scholarship to a team in one of the best conferences in all of college football (also a bball star at Camden Catholic). How he can go from there to being the QB of the worst offense in college football is beyond me, especially when you can still see his athletecism. Somethings not write, and I HAVE to think its the coaching, at some level.
I have faith in Mr. Muir to handle this well. I have HEARD, that in the past, there were too many family ties, everybody in the Athletic Dept was too close to one another, and that procluded business being taken care of. Muir was brought in from outside of the system and has few ties. I came here after the Esherick saga had finished, but have heard tons about it. It seems that there was a significant period of time where mediocrity was tolerated, to say the least. I'm really hoping that with Mr. Muir those days are behind us. He's from Notre Dame--he knows football. And Im guessing that one of the big reasons behind bringing him in is that hes capable of being tough on everyone, and I think the time has already come to be tough on the football program. Getting our butts handed to us several times a year is intolerable. And ask yourself, how close were we to being WINLESS this year? Snuck 2 out in OT, barely beat lowly Stoney Brook, and needed a miracle to beat (to that point winless) Fordham. This was a BAD year, and last year, my first year at GU was a bad year too... How many bad years do you get? I am hoping that we have all learned from the Esh---> JTIII saga that a little new blood, a new outlook, some excitement etc. can reinvigorate things quicker than you might think.
Georgetown is an academic powerhouse with great basketball tradition, and frankly, great football tradition dating back to the days before our program was originally shutdown. We deserve better than this, and I think with the new stadium coming and our academic prowess, theres no reason that we can't be significantly better in the not too distant future. We just need the right people (ie people with good football minds and HUNGER) in the right positions.
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Post by win1hoya on Nov 20, 2005 9:11:00 GMT -5
Had a talk with a Div.I-A Coach who has seen Hoya film & watched the game yesterday. His assessment was this, scouting Georgetown-is way too simple. "Follow the QB and you stop the offense" were his words. You prepare your defense to attack the QB and 80% of the time you get to the ball. No offensive scheme to keep defense guessing. Yes, we kill ouselves with penalties, bad decisions, aweful field position, turnovers, poor tackling, etc. But if we could score points, we are in more games. I think we thought the defense was better then it was this year, so we planned the game around them. Lack of offense kept them on the field to long, that did not help. The 1st. couple of games, the QB gained a lot of running yards, but that stopped quickly. Why, because the other teams now had film to watch & plan a shut down on our easy-to-read offense.
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eagle36
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Post by eagle36 on Nov 20, 2005 9:23:30 GMT -5
There is alot of talent on this team that has not be properly used. What a talented groupfof seniors I feel bad for them what a waste. Many talented players are getting discouraged week after week. The time they put into this program and game is hours spent away from studying, many of these guys take heavy course loads and remember we are a non-scholarship program, some players get need- based money, but some get nothing in the way of finacnial aid. They love the game!! this has been hard to watch week after week , knowing the talent that team has. I hope someone has the right answer on how to fix this program for all involved.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 20, 2005 10:41:40 GMT -5
There is alot of talent on this team that has not be properly used. What a talented groupfof seniors I feel bad for them what a waste. Many talented players are getting discouraged week after week. The time they put into this program and game is hours spent away from studying, many of these guys take heavy course loads and remember we are a non-scholarship program, some players get need- based money, but some get nothing in the way of finacnial aid. They love the game!! this has been hard to watch week after week , knowing the talent that team has. I hope someone has the right answer on how to fix this program for all involved. Yea, and I imagine it is especially hard because the football program is still something of a joke among most students despite our efforts to put a positive spin on things. It sucks that these guys arent taken seriously by their peers despite working very hard.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 20, 2005 10:56:27 GMT -5
"The return on investment" of the MSF can't be measured in financial terms.
This program will never even approach break-even at even a best-case scenario (as is true with all non BCS programs) despite a facility upgrade. Instead, the investment return is measured by being competitive at this level of football, with occasional wins over--and consistent scheduling of--Ivy League opponents. If you finish consistently over .500 in league play (contending for a league title every three/four years), than the upgrade in facility and leagues has been a success. Obviously, that has not yet occurred and progress has been considerably slower than everyone would have liked. Who knows if additional fans will come regardless of success? We all hope they will, but that hope may be illusory. It wasn't like the stands were packed on Kehoe Field during the halcyon days of the late 90s.
To that end, it is important for A.D. Muir to take a hard look at the program, but it would be a big mistake to do so with only an eye for what he's seen on the field this year. You still need to put the wins and losses in the context of the relative financial constraints compared to our competitor schools (coaching pay, grants-in-aid, etc.) and an evaluation of the program would be unfair if not put in that context. And, although the former regime's "family atmosphere" has been mocked, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That family atmosphere held the Athletic Department in good stead across a wide variety of sports, football included, for many, many years. Mediocrity? I don't think we saw that in track or lacrosse or the early years of I-AA football. We saw more or less consistent success. Just because one member of the family didn't work in a high profile area doesn't mean that the entire philosophy is broken.
I don't mean to suggest that things are going well--they're not. Nor do I think that keeping the status quo is the right idea. Instead, I just want to stress that a long-term view taking into account the full picture is appropriate.
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Post by WesCoast on Nov 20, 2005 15:36:27 GMT -5
The final Patriot League stats should be available tomorrow and I think our team lead the league in three catagories: pass defense punt defense kick-off return defense That's something to be proud of... special teams play showed a complete turn-around from last year... coach Brady did a great job!
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Post by stdno2man on Nov 20, 2005 15:38:57 GMT -5
I can't tell you if there is enough talent on this team to win until I see it all. I have no doubt the coaches are great. However they seem to be very loyal also. If you look over the entire season you will not see one change in the line up from day 1 until the end of the season that did not come but for an injury. This is strange considering we were being thrashed on a regular basis and barely winning against teams we should beat badly. Normally when you lose like we lost to Brown or Cornell you would see changes somewhere based on performance alone. However I challenge anyone to point to one change in our lineup that came about because of performance. Anyone who believe we were anything but lucky to end up 4-7 didn't watch the games. We could very easily be 0-11. There was not one time all season where we came out and did to others what was done to us in at least 6 of our losses and that was to remove all doubt by the end of the 3rd quarter.
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Post by njfootballalum on Nov 20, 2005 20:23:11 GMT -5
I hope that Georgetown starts this off-season on the right note by making their moves towards improvement immediately. I don't want to comment on what changes need to be made, as any recommendations will be prolix and, apparently, superfluous; I think there are a lot of things that need to be addressed, and many of us feel the same about the main issues.
I just hope that the powers that be don't give the axe to the good guys in the program (i.e. Benson, Sgarlata, Brady, and the other people who work tirelessly to help the Hoyas get better). I'm sure that a lot of changes will be made, but I hope those guys are around, at the very least, in some capacity next season. With that said, I really hope that some drastic moves are made to help the team finish above .500 for the first time this millennium. As much as I sympathize with the good coaches, I feel really bad for those players who’ve been breaking their backs for their entire time at Georgetown and haven’t even tasted a winning season.
Finally, if I were to stress one thing that needs improvement, it’s discipline: through reading some posts, and seeing the team play this year a few times, I’ve noticed that several players committed some pretty stupid/selfish acts at inappropriate times that really hurt the team on the field (I don’t want to say anything specific to target people, but I’m sure anyone who follows the team knows who/what I’m talking about). I saw some stuff that really made me sick to my stomach as a former player and fan. I understand that losing makes everyone frustrated, but there’s no excuse for some of the behavior I witnessed…I’m not sure if this is rooted in a coaching issue, or just due to the guilty players’ immaturity, but I hope that this problem is addressed in the off season.
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Post by timex on Nov 21, 2005 16:19:11 GMT -5
I'VE SEEN WESTERN PA AND OHIO HIGH SCHOOL TEAMS PLAY BETTER FOOTBALL! IF A TEAM WITH THIS MUCH TALENT CAN'T CUT IT.....WHO'S FAULT IS IT? ? THE COACHES OF COURSE! THEY NEED A DIFFERENT OFFENSE..DEFENSE DOES WELL..OFFENCE IS AWFUL! I SAY CLEAN HOUSE!
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoya4ever on Nov 21, 2005 16:42:58 GMT -5
WHAT? no dude we don't clean house. Do you wanna get rid of coach Belli? I don't, he does a great job with the running backs, the wide receiver coach is also doing alright. we also might want to keep Brady and Sgarlata. Just a though, cause they have been doing well. Augie (strength) should def stay because he motivates those guys like there is no tomorrow, I see it everyday. One piece of advice to anyone who makes new coach decisions: Get someone who is as pumped about the game as they expect their players to be. The Davidson coaches were so into it, while our coaches looked like quiet old grandmothers.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 22, 2005 3:35:14 GMT -5
I've said this before, and I'll say it again; Benson is just Esherick on a team that nobody cares about. He shows no signs of fixing the same problems that are blatant every year. Clock management, play-calling, discipline, and roster use are still at a level that wouldn't be acceptable in High School.
I have no hope for the improvement of the team while he remains.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 22, 2005 7:02:48 GMT -5
A cheap shot to throw in the Esherick card, Hoyaboy, but your comments otherwise fall flat:
1. Benson doesn't call offensive plays. Did you not know that? 2. Clock management is generally an offensive issue. See #1. 3. Disclipline has generally not been a problem on the team. 4. As noted before, roster use is consistent with other PL and Ivy teams.
We can argue whether it was due to injury, play calling, philosophy, whatever, but if the 2005 team had any reasonable offensive output, Georgetown beats Lafayette and Davidson and probably gives Holy Cross a run for its money. At that point, Georgetown is looking at 7-4 rather than 4-7. That still may not be good enough for you, but it is evident how all three facets of the game (offense, defense, special teams) are important.
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Post by WesCoast on Nov 22, 2005 10:49:58 GMT -5
From the Fordham site: NY Post article on Coach Foley's resignation (poster:ramMan)
Fordham Grid Coach Walks Away The New York Post
"Obviously, the program hasn't been too successful," said Fordham athletic director Frank McLaughlin. "I've gotta give Ed [Foley] a lot of credit. He said, 'If we need to bring in new blood to make the program successful, I'll resign.' "
"We talked after the game Saturday and we met on Sunday and Ed said, 'For the good of the program, I'm willing to step aside.' Everybody felt bad because we fully supported him, but it just didn't work."
As of yesterday, there were no candidates to replace Foley, but the search will begin "immediately," according to a statement released by Fordham.
"This is a quiet week because of the holiday," McLaughlin said. "It gives us a chance to do a little research, to call a lot of people. Find out who's good and who's not and also find out who's interested."
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Nov 23, 2005 21:06:12 GMT -5
A cheap shot to throw in the Esherick card, Hoyaboy, but your comments otherwise fall flat: 3. Disclipline has generally not been a problem on the team. ... if the 2005 team had any reasonable offensive output ... ... probably gives Holy Cross a run for its money. At that point ... The discipline on the team is awful. We have had a HUGE problem with getting personal fouls. The defense did not tackle well - no one actually hit anyone they just tried to drag them down, and after they did they would get up and celebrate (even if it was a 20 yard gain). That is not discipline at all. On the second quote - the offensive production of this team was so abysmal that the hypothetical is just dumb - its because the offense was so terrible and has continued to be so terrible that something needs to change. Either Benson needs to start calling the plays, Benson needs more $$$ to hire assistants, or we need to start from scratch. I personally am in favor of doing the last option and then giving that person more $$$ for assistant coaches.
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Nov 23, 2005 21:47:30 GMT -5
The students should have a rally. That worked out well last time.
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david
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Post by david on Nov 23, 2005 21:51:39 GMT -5
The students should have a rally. That worked out well last time. sorry, i dont know what that is a reference to
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hoya4ever
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Post by hoya4ever on Nov 23, 2005 23:10:08 GMT -5
The students should have a rally. That worked out well last time. sorry, i dont know what that is a reference to The season before Esh was fired, students would go to the games and yell for his head. Got some of them in trouble as I recall.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Nov 24, 2005 12:10:31 GMT -5
DFW, when a part of the team consistently stinks for years, no matter how many coaches change, it becomes Benson's fault. He may not call the plays but he certainly must have a say in the overall game planning for the week. I also suspect he does make decisions about whether or not we should just take a knee from our own 40 with 20+ seconds left in the 1st half.
As St. Pete said, the discipline has been awful this year, even worse than previously.
My roster management comment is based more on gossip, but I know that many players don't like how they are used and don't respect the coaching staff, and we certainly don't seem to maximize our talent. I see no reason why the program will turn around with Benson as head coach.
I also fail to see the massive differences between he and Esherick at this point, except for the lack of tradition with the program.
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