I Just Don't See it

[BeantownHoya]

Someone explain to me why Rivers is on the floor so much more than Crawford.

I understand the appeal of Rivers. He is solid defensively, above avg. rebounder for his size and can play the point, which Crawford cant. That being said I think he can be such a liability on the offensive end it takes away from what he provides on the other side of the ball.

He is simply a very poor shooter to say the least and if your a PG that provides little to no offense, you really need to be able to penetrate or find the open man, neither of which he does at a high level. As an opponent I would move to zone every time he is on the floor jam the middle, get out on the wings, and let him try to beat us every time.

Most will say you question Rivers track record but what has Crawford done and you would be right. I know the argument will be there is a reason he isn't on the floor more, but personally i wonder what that reason is.

It amazes me that he was pegged a starter last year to open the season, over Sapp, suffer an illness and then never see the floor again? At this point I would think that he has fully recovered. He is also a good rebounder for his size, plays solid defense (almost as good as Rivers) and is considerably better on the offensive end.

I really thought with Wallace, the addition of Wright and this teams apparent desire to play a little more of 3 guard sets that this would open the chance for him to see playing time. I know it's just one game but it seems very apparent that he will be an after thought again this season.

[FromTheBeginning]

Let the Coach coach the team - he seems to be doing OK at it.

[CAHoya07]

I think it's Rivers' quickness and ball-handling ability - which is probably what you mean by "he can play the point." III probably just feels more comfortable with Rivers handling the ball than Crawford, as evidenced last year when Rivers was one of only four real ball-handlers on the team - Wallace, Sapp, Rivers, and Green. He hasn't really been able to penetrate and create yet, but I think that could come with time. Throw in the defense and rebounding, and Rivers just brings more to the table than Tyler. Of course, Crawford is a much better shooter (I still cringe a little every time Rivers spots up) and probably a better hustle guy, but that alone won't put him above what Rivers provides.

Throw in Austin and Chris, and Tyler might be the odd man out again in what is now a loaded backcourt. But give it some time. It still is only one game into the season.

[SirSaxa]

cahoya07 said:

I think it's Rivers' quickness and ball-handling ability - which is probably what you mean by "he can play the point." III probably just feels more comfortable with Rivers handling the ball than Crawford, as evidenced last year when Rivers was one of only four real ball-handlers on the team - Wallace, Sapp, Rivers, and Green. He hasn't really been able to penetrate and create yet, but I think that could come with time. Throw in the defense and rebounding, and Rivers just brings more to the table than Tyler. Of course, Crawford is a much better shooter (I still cringe a little every time Rivers spots up) and probably a better hustle guy, but that alone won't put him above what Rivers provides.

Throw in Austin and Chris, and Tyler might be the odd man out again in what is now a loaded backcourt. But give it some time. It still is only one game into the season.

I pretty much agree with you CA. Except I wouldn't phrase it "Throw in the Defense..".
When I have seen him play, Rivers has looked like our best defender, with Sapp second best. I also don't see Tyler as a better hustle guy. No question Tyler hustles, but Rivers has plenty too. He also looked very poised on the floor as last year went on. Tyler, on the other hand, punched the basket support and broke his hand.

Listen, I like Tyler just like everyone else. But Rivers provides better defense than any of our guards and excellent ball handling. And he runs the offense well too.

One more thing, when Tyler started last year, wasn't Sapp coming off an injury of some kind? I thought there were two parts to that story. Tyler started, but Sapp wasn't quite ready. By the time Sapp was ready, Tyler got sick. Also, Sapp was very good last year and is probably going to have an even stronger season this yaer.

All that said, it is also hard to disagree with From the Beginning.

[Dhall]

I was very skeptical of Rivers at the beginning of last year, but he absolutely grew to know his role as the year progressed: defense, rebounding, ball-handling, opportunistic scoring. He's the type of guy who can contribute a lot when he is out there as long as he doesn't try to do too much - took a bad shot against W&M and I groaned about that.

I see Tyler as both slower and weaker despite his chiseled physique, and he does not seem to have ball-handling skills. Hoyas do not need/want either of these guys to serve as a primary offensive option, and Rivers is a sophomore so there is upside with him. Sorry to say it, but there's 0 reasons why Tyler should be on the court. Yes, he is a better shooter than Rivers, but do you want him shooting instead of Hibbert, Wallace, Summers, Sapp, etc. anyway?

[SFHoya99]

• Ballhandling seems to be very important to JTIII. Rivers, IMO, has the best handle of the returning players. If you think back to III's first year, there was never a moment when Cook and Wallace weren't on the court. Thompson likes having two points out there.
  
• One of Tyler's biggest strengths is rebounding. Another is energy. Rivers isn't weak in either category. He's got good size and is active.
  
• Rivers' defense is the best on the team on the perimeter. Crawford may not be bad, but he has tended to be foul prone and a bit overactive. Rivers can really stay in front of guys.
  
• That's not to say Tyler doesn't bring something to the table versus Rivers. He can shoot, and he's probably a better rebounder. The problem is, III doesn't seem comfortable with him at the 2, so he's competing as a 3. Rivers is more versatile.
  
• That said...I'd love to see Crawford get some run when we're struggling to hit an outside shot.
  

[FewFAC]

The most difficult thing for me to accept in three decades of basketball fandom is that I don't see what the players do in practice. The coaches do. Now I've seen my fair number of coaches who "fall in love" with certain players for whatever reason (they remind the coach of when the coach was younger, they remind the coach of the type of young man he'd want to marry his daughter, ...), but I haven't really seen that yet with III. I've seen him ask players to understand a certain role and I think he's gotten pretty good execution from his players within those roles, even in losses.

[Eurostar]

this thread should have been started around last january... and was. i said all last year that i thought crawford was a great player and had no clue why he STARTED to begin last season and then essentially got sent to clean up duty after his injury even with egerson transferring and more minutes at the SG/SF spot opening up.

however, this went on ALL LAST SEASON with crawford getting minimal minutes and rivers being the first guard off the bench, so its obvious that rivers and now wright and freeman have jumped over him in the guard pecking order.... so im not sure why we are rehashing this argument at this point. did you really expect crawford to get like 15 minutes against W&M?

[GIGAFAN99]

DHall has it right. Tyler does one thing better than Rivers and that's shoot. But he's still the fifth option when he's on the floor. So how much incremental advantage do you get from having a better fifth option? Put that up against a guy who can distribute to the first four options and is one of our best defenders and it's a pretty simple choice.

[hoyaboy1]

Jeremiah is obviously very useful on the defensive end. On offense, of course, he struggles mightily - he can't shoot, and hasn't shown much ability to penetrate or set up his teammates. Ideally we would have guards that are good on both ends, which would make Rivers little more than an emergency option. For now, however, he'll stick in the rotation since nobody besides Sapp has shown much on the defensive end.

I think it would be best for the team if Freeman and Wright play well enough on defense that Jeremiah's minutes can be reduced. That doesn't usually happen with freshman, though.

[strummer8526]

I don't think Rivers can pass either. At one point against W&M, Tyler came off the bench, and it looked like he might get some time...with 45 seconds left in the half. I say give the man a shot. Rivers frustrates me to no end.

[idhoya]

Rivers is a quicker Bobby Winston.

[MCIGuy]

I think its a shame that Tyler can't get more playing time. He has earned it and his shooting could come in handy.

At the same time I think River is the better player. III has shown the ability to recognize who his best players are so he leaves me little room to doubt him (though I still feel III is too stubborn when it comes to handing out playing time). I have to disagree with those who claim Rivers can't penetrate or pass. Seriously almost all of the highlights of Rivers that I can recall from last season's edits are of him driving, penetrating and passing off to Roy, Jeff or Vernon in the paint; something that Jon and Jesse, despite all their minutes, almost never do (as I've written before Jesse can pass and Jesse can penetrate but he seems unable to do BOTH in one play/motion/sequence). Plus Rivers can defend and rebound and get to the hole and finish when he puts his mind to it. The only things that hurt Rivers are his passivity and his inability to knock down jump-shots. Those are two huge flaws but everything else about his game, build, skill level and athleticism is above average.