hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 4, 2007 15:08:45 GMT -5
I would bet any amount of money that if Beilein could have gotten VM to attend WV, he would have taken him in a heartbeat.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 4, 2007 15:50:19 GMT -5
i think the notion of not looking ahead is great for the team. they need to take games one at a time. but to apply this to fans is just silly. no team ever lost a game because their fans were over looking a game. Some of us believe in mojo, some of us do not. On the other hand, I feel it is my duty to assert my inalienable right as an American to stomp all over your value system and impose my own. There is no game but the next game. ;D
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 17:15:29 GMT -5
It is when you're stuck with it. But if I told you that JTIII had a system that recruited nothing but Jon Wallace players of various heights, would you be thrilled? Their strengths are perpetuated by the fact that they recruit specifically for that system. It's not like they couldn't recruit other players. It's just that their system actively seeks 7'0 tall guys who like to stand outside and shoot threes and 5'11 guys who like to stand outside and shoot threes. That's fine, but you'll always be somewhere between "fair" and "pretty good" with that philosophy. Just my opinion. I think WVU basketball is terrible to watch. Agreed that we could go 6-0 in that soft stretch. GIGA, not to flame, but as a WVU fan, you really have no idea what John Beilein's philosophy is, do you? You sound like one of the NC State fans that ran Herb Sendek off. Do you prefer a pro-style one-on-one type of game? If so, then I can see why you think WVU basketball is terrible to watch. Otherwise, I feel watching Coach Beilein's offenses are poetry in motion. To state that WVU relies solely on shooting threes is purely erroneous. Beilein's offense relies on what the defense gives you. If you play a tight man, he will backdoor you to death. If you play a zone, he'll (and I apologize for the late "Christmas Story" reference) "shoot your eye out!" It is true that Beilein relies on good shooters, but that's not all. He also wants players who are smart, can handle the ball, and are great passers. This WVU team isn't a bunch of slow, white guys like last year's team. These guys are pretty athletic and long. WVU's starting five go 6-2, 6-6, 6-5, 6-8, and 7'. The first players off the bench are 6-7, 6-6, and 7'. Look at Jay Wright's comments from last nite's game. He was amazed at WVU's defense and how tall and fast they were. Heck, they lead the country in defensive PPG and shut down Nova's offense.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 4, 2007 17:28:54 GMT -5
Beilien's philosophy and Thompson's philosophies, offensively, are very similar in many ways, I'd think.
One of the things that makes III different, I think, is that his offense is a mindset or philosophy so he doesn't seem to run a lot of specific plays. Does Beilien?
Defensively, I don't think *that* much of your players, but I think that so few teams play a 1-3-1 AND I think your players are well coached enough to be in position that the defense can be very good. (I.e. Ruoff and Butler are two of the top steal people in basketball. I don't think they are if they are not on WVU).
This WVU team is very, very good, and is making a lot of schools look like morons for not throwing massive dollars at Beilien.
Both WVU and ND are very good, but people are slow to adjust their preseason expectations, I think.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Jan 4, 2007 17:52:19 GMT -5
Whether or not Beilein's strategy is "shoot threes til your arms fall off," (which I don't think it is) I don't think it's way out of line for somebody to watch a 37 3FGA out of 44FGA performance and think they rely on a lot of threes.
For the record, the 'eers third in the nation in 3PAs as a percentage of total field goal attempts (51.8%) behind only VMI and Princeton.
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 4, 2007 17:53:52 GMT -5
Since this thread has drifted so far afield, I was wondering what keeps Beilein in WVU. Some school (NC State?) was rumored to make a run at him last off-season, but obviously he stayed. Is he an alum / native and therefore honor-bound to WVU? Does he have some sort of poison-pill contract? Is he too old to take on a rebuilding job? Is he waiting for his dream job to come open (e.g. Roy Williams to UNC)?
Just curious, and noting that this conversation may soon apply to a coach near and dear . . .
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 4, 2007 18:35:26 GMT -5
I believe NC State was unwilling to pony up for a significant buyout ($1.5MM, I think?). Beilien was reported good as gone, the WVU boards had roasted him for a traitor and suddenly he's back.
It was awkward, but now they are winning, so its all good.
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 18:52:59 GMT -5
Some good thoughts. I agree that JTIII and John Beilein have the same/similar philosophy. I guess that's why I was surprised that GIGA didn't like the way WVU plays. For what it's worth, Beilein does call plays. I've been told he has thousands of different ones.
As far as WVU's players and their defense, while WVU's players aren't top 50 players, most were recruited by other Big East teams. I'll give you Ruoff being a better defensive player because of the 1-3-1, but Butler, no way. You guys recruited Butler pretty hard. He's pretty special already as a freshman. Butler ripped both UConn and Nova when he was in the game. Defensively, he's outstanding, whether at the top of the 1-3-1 or in man-to-man.
As for WVU being third in the 3 ptrs. attempted, it doesn't surprise me. When other coaches watch game tape of WVU, they see that WVU is waaaayyy more athletic than in the past. These guys are much better at finishing than Gansey, Beilein, or Pittsnoggle. If you were a coach playing against WVU, which would you take your chances with? Giving up a bunch of easy two point baskets through backdoor cuts or let them shoot the three and hope the shots aren't falling. I know which one I'll choose. I will say that the potential for this team is pretty good for as young as they are.
Beilein was really close to leaving for NC State. Why (especially the way they ran off Sendek), I don't know. I do know why he stayed. WVU's AD, when he restructured Beilein's contract after the Elite Eight run, added a clause that they buyout is 500,000 per year remaining on the contract. NC State wasn't willing to pay 2.5 million just to even begin to make an offer. I guess NC State doesn't have Alabama money either. Beilein didn't go to school at WVU, but he did graduate from a small school in West Virginia, Wheeling Jesuit. IMO, now, the only job I could see him leaving for would be Syracuse, cause he is an upstate NY guy.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 4, 2007 18:56:44 GMT -5
I don't know why the NCSU job would be any better than the WVU job really. You can kind of fo your own thing, pluck talent from the DC area, from Ohio, and from in-state... at NCSU you have to recruit nationally more and are always going to be the third at best program in the area.
If I were Beilein though I'd keep milking that success for more money. No doubt he'll get more offers this spring/summer from other programs. Like Rodriguez, I'd keep listening and using that to get myself more from WVU.
How old is he anyway? Maybe he'll be the guy to takeover for Tubby when he finally gets the axe.
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 18:58:44 GMT -5
Another quick thought about WVU and defense. This year, WVU relies less and less on the 1-3-1 and more on man defense that in the past. In the game yesterday, they only used the 1-3-1 in about half the first half and for the last five minutes in the second.
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 19:14:45 GMT -5
I don't know why the NCSU job would be any better than the WVU job really. You can kind of fo your own thing, pluck talent from the DC area, from Ohio, and from in-state... at NCSU you have to recruit nationally more and are always going to be the third at best program in the area. If I were Beilein though I'd keep milking that success for more money. No doubt he'll get more offers this spring/summer from other programs. Like Rodriguez, I'd keep listening and using that to get myself more from WVU. How old is he anyway? Maybe he'll be the guy to takeover for Tubby when he finally gets the axe. I think he's either 53 or 54 years old. If Beilein were to leave, I think WVU would hire Jeff Neubaugher, one of Beilein's former long-time assistants who left a couple years ago to be the head coach at Eastern Kentucky.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 4, 2007 19:23:22 GMT -5
Another quick thought about WVU and defense. This year, WVU relies less and less on the 1-3-1 and more on man defense that in the past. In the game yesterday, they only used the 1-3-1 in about half the first half and for the last five minutes in the second. It's the threes mtnbeer. How much better would a guy like Pittsnogle have been if he ever took anyone of the bounce? Kid kind of just developed into a catch and shoot guy his whole career. I don't think JTIII has a similar philosophy beyond teamwork, constant motion without the basketball and good floor spacing which are pretty much going to be present in any motion offense. No offense but I've heard the line before that he'll "backdoor you to death" and he "takes what the defense gives you." I just find it hard to believe that more than 50% of the time, the only thing he ends up with is a three-point shot if that isn't the goal of the possession. From where I sit, it's implausible that his offense can NOT be centered around the three-pointer when they shoot threes far more than any other major conference team I've ever seen. Hey I don't want this to be an attack on WVU fans, WVU can play however they want and some people like that. I don't. The giant hole in the system is that eventually you run into teams that don't turn the ball over on their overplays and at that point WVU has a problem with their possessions. They never go to the line and because the offense is predicated on so many people moving towards the basket and then hard-cutting AWAY from the basket, offensive rebounding is difficult. So what happens then? Well I guess you better hit your threes.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 4, 2007 20:48:09 GMT -5
I say hats off to Beilein. The consensus was that he would face a major rebuilding effort this year. I don't think anyone thought they might be NCAA material again. Of course, the big test is to come, when they start playing conference road games. Also, they play UCLA again. That should be REALLY interesting.
One thing I recall is that WVU was among the nation's leaders in fewest turnovers each of the last two seasons. Where do they stand this year? It would be amazing if that were true again, with such an inexperienced team.
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 21:04:24 GMT -5
Good discussion GIGA, I didn't take the discussion as an attack on WVU fans or WVU's system at all. I like this board and Nova's board because you guys will talk BB strategy. To be honest, even in John Beilein's system, Pittsnoggle was an anomaly. I think John Beilein prefers his centers to be good passers, play though interior defense, and get rebounds. At least that is whay he has on the current roster and that is what he continues to recruit for. Pittsnoggle was one out of three, but because he could shoot so well, he made up for his other deficiencies.
I'll agree that Beilein doesn't place a premium on rebounding, particularly offensive rebounding and that the three point shot is an important part of WVU's system. In fact, as I stated above, if I were a coach, I'd force WVU to make the three-point shot over giving the backdoor cuts. However, it's not the only thing. As an example from last year, WVU played Oklahoma down in OK city and backdoored them out of the gym. I believe OU made the NCAA tournament last year, so they weren't a bad team. WVU beat them 92-68 and made (no, this isn't a typo) 24-27 two point shots and 20-23 free throws. And this team is much better than last years at taking people off the bounce. Joe Alexander and DaSean Butler both ate UConn alive by taking it to the hoop off the bounce. UConn may be young this year, but they still have good athletes, so taking them off the bounce isn't easy. Last year, Gansey and Herber were the only ones would would do that. This year, Alexander, Nichols, Butler, Mazzula, Smith, and to a smaller extent, Ruoff and Young.
It's been a fun discussion and I'm looking forward to our games this year.
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Post by mtnbeer on Jan 4, 2007 21:11:12 GMT -5
One thing I recall is that WVU was among the nation's leaders in fewest turnovers each of the last two seasons. Where do they stand this year? It would be amazing if that were true again, with such an inexperienced team. According to the Big East statistics as of today, WVU is first in scoring defense, three point FG made, 3 point FG defense (percentage), third in assists (behind Pitt and ND), third in steals, first in turnover margins, and first in Assist/TO ratio in the league.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Jan 5, 2007 9:58:19 GMT -5
I just don't see the hole in the system when your team can consistently hit their jump shots and play defense. WVU's defense has been darn good (see Kenpom's blog today), and they take care of the ball. So what if the offense is premised on open jumpers or 3s? They recruit guys that can hit them. Every year since Belien took over they have improved their BE wins and have made an Elite Eight and Sweet 16. The results are what they are and they're darn good.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 5, 2007 16:52:01 GMT -5
Sounds more and more like how the game is played internationally... 5 or 4 of the players on the court at one time can hit the 3s...
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