Jeff Green integral part of offense?

[OldHoyafan]

That is a no brainer that you need Jeff to have a decent game when you play the UConn, Duke or Florida's of this world, but ODU? All of the starters had respectable games except Jeff and we lose to ODU. WOW. I think the lack of depth is a legitimate concern at this point . The Hoyas have talent on the bench but it is young and unproven. I have not seen Tyler Crawford play this year so I don't know how much he would have brought to the table in the line of scoring.(averaged less than 5 points last year)

He may ,as co-captain, have been able to provide the (WE ARE GEORGETOWN AND WE DON'T LOSE TO ODU AT HOME!) tongue lashing to his team mates that co-captain Jeff Green could not since he was stinking up the place.

Big John used the St Leo's of the world to get his young charges familiar with his system (smothering pressure D, and throw it in to the Big Man) during game situations. JT3, I am sure, wanted to do the same ,but ODU has tournament tested upperclassmen. so this should have been a very early stiff test, but a loss is really deflating. I love JT3, but to those that were there did he ever go small(3 or 4 guard rotation), fullcourt pressure, anything other than straight big-man-for-bigman, or guard-for-guard rotation?

Well lets hope Fairfield provides a happier learning environment for the young players.

[RockawayHoya]

I was not there to see the game in person, but from what I've heard, Jeff struggled badly. I don't care how well the other team is shooting; if you're a preseason Wooden Award candidate, you can't be going 1 for 3 from the field and scoring 2 points. Not to mention fouling out. Just absolutely unacceptable. Maybe he just had a terribly off day, or he was stunned by the taunting from that one ODU player Vasilius, but I'm sorry... if you're supposed to be no less than at least the co-BE player of the year, you need to do better than that. Here's to hoping he can bounce back from a very poor effort.

[RBHoya]

rockawayhoya said:

I was not there to see the game in person, but from what I've heard, Jeff struggled badly. I don't care how well the other team is shooting; if you're a preseason Wooden Award candidate, you can't be going 1 for 3 from the field and scoring 2 points. Not to mention fouling out. Just absolutely unacceptable. Maybe he just had a terribly off day, or he was stunned by the taunting from that one ODU player Vasilius, but I'm sorry... if you're supposed to be no less than at least the co-BE player of the year, you need to do better than that. Here's to hoping he can bounce back from a very poor effort.

I'm fairly certain that Jeff never asked to be on the Wooden Award list, or to be in the All America conversation, or the co-BE player of the year (he was not big east co-player of the year in the preseason poll, but whatever). These are all things that others have bestowed upon him.

I'm not trying to make a point at your expense but youre poster #967 to make almost this exact same point since last night. Jeff is an extremely gifted basketball player, but he has always had these battles with inconsistency, for as long as he's been playing here. How many people are going to deem a performance like this as "absolutely unacceptable"? I am sure he wanted to play better and I am sure he is as upset about the loss as all of us, or more.

If you(plural) are disappointed by his performance, maybe you ought to blame yourself for having disproportionate expectations, rather than blaming Jeff for not living up to those expectations imposed upon him. Anyone who has watched his entire career at GU should know that he has some games where he's just out of sync or off his game. Remember Northen Iowa? VERY similar to last night for Jeff, including an opposing player getting in his head a bit.

[RockawayHoya]

RB, I understand your reasoning for shielding him from what seems to be an unreasonable level of expectation, and I'm sure he feels bad, but that doesn't absolve him from blame. I never said "if Jeff played better, we would have won" or "Jeff cost us the game," because those statements would have been untrue. But as arguably the leader of this team (along with Roy), he just cannot disappear like that. He's an upperclassman now and doesn't have the luxury of having 3 experienced seniors to cover for him when he happens to be out of sync or off his game. Furthermore, he can't let some random guy from ODU intimidate him with words. He didn't take a single shot the rest of the game after the technical. Jeff doesn't strike me as the type of player that loses focus on the court, but multiple observers last night said that he was obviously affected by it. So blame the subpar game on a sagging zone, and maybe they kept the ball out of his hands more than we would have liked. But he has to find a way to contribute. 2 points might not be the end of the world, but he has to find other means of helping the team, and he didn't do that either last night.

[RBHoya]

rockawayhoya said:

RB, I understand your reasoning for shielding him from what seems to be an unreasonable level of expectation, and I'm sure he feels bad, but that doesn't absolve him from blame. I never said "if Jeff played better, we would have won" or "Jeff cost us the game," because those statements would have been untrue. But as arguably the leader of this team (along with Roy), he just cannot disappear like that. He's an upperclassman now and doesn't have the luxury of having 3 experienced seniors to cover for him when he happens to be out of sync or off his game. Furthermore, he can't let some random guy from ODU intimidate him with words. He didn't take a single shot the rest of the game after the technical. Jeff doesn't strike me as the type of player that loses focus on the court, but multiple observers last night said that he was obviously affected by it. So blame the subpar game on a sagging zone, and maybe they kept the ball out of his hands more than we would have liked. But he has to find a way to contribute. 2 points might not be the end of the world, but he has to find other means of helping the team, and he didn't do that either last night.

It's mostly the imperative phrasing that I'm not enamored with. Jeff didn't ask for Brandon and Ashanti to graduate. He didn't ask to be the team's "go-to-guy". He was voted a captain by his teammates and accepted, but that's about it.

It seems that your basic premise is "If we want to accomplish X this year, Jeff CAN'T play like that." Which is true, and substitute your favorite lofty goal (Win the Big East, Go to the final 4, etc.) in for X. But it's the first part of the statement there that's important. He's never told Hoya fans "Don't worry, get on my back and we'll go to the final four." It's true that the outcome of our season is predicated largely on how he plays, but it's unfair IMO to hold nights like this against him. If people are expecting him to be a star every night, then that's their fault, because he's never done that in his career. He's still the same guy that scored 5 points in 33 minutes against Villanova('05-'06), same guy who had 4 points in 33 minutes at JMU, same guy who had 2 points in 37 minutes against Northern Iowa. He has a history of this.

And over the late spring and summer I think a lot of people forgot about all that, and let a blowout against OSU and a near win against the eventual champs lead them into a false sense that it wouldn't happen anymore. And now it has. But Jeff is still the same kid--if people are disappointed with his output, that isn't his fault. Fans tend to hate the disappointment that comes with a performance like yesterdays, and since people always need something to blame, they blame the players. In reality, they should be blaming themselves, but people are almost never willing to do that.

It's quite easy for those of us in the stands to say "He CANNOT disappear like that" or "He MUST find ways to contribute" or "He CAN'T be intimidated." But who are we, and what the hell do we know about being Jeff Green? None of us is satisfied with how last night went down (btw, the only ridiculously over-used line after a game that bothers me more than hanging it on our players is "absolutely terrible loss, no excuse"....... Ya THINK?!? : but he's going to have these nights again. We can either realize that now, see that as a part of who he is, and assess him as a player on the whole, rather than assessing his good games and conveniently forgetting the Northern Iowas and the JMUs and the ODUs; or we can keep lying to ourselves and believing what we want to believe, and then point the finger at our guys when things don't go our way. The second approach is, IMO, the much less mature route and really not fair to do to our guys.

You can't be mad at a kid for not playing like a potential All-American when that's a label you've put on him and that he's never asked for. All he has done is play ball.

[bmartin]

Hibbert and Wallace scored 26 of the 29 points in the middle of the game, from 18-19 to 47-50. Roy can't do that for 40 minutes and Wallace probably can't either. When Roy needs a breather, Jeff is supposed to turn it on and take over the paint. In some ways, they were better with Jeff out of the game, because then they had no reason to expect him to make the play. Hibbert, Wallace, Sapp, and Egerson had solid but not spectacular games. Jeff and at least one bench player just had to be average, say 15 points and 8 rebounds. He did not have to be an All-American to win the game, just the average Jeff Green would have done it. The defense is more worrisome than the offense. These are guardable teams that Georgetown is not guarding well. JTIII needs to bring out the traps and presses, not 40 minutes, but to break up the rhythm when the other guys figure out how to attack the matchups on the floor.

[RockawayHoya]

I'm not "mad" at Jeff, first of all. I just think I should be allowed to criticize someone if they have a bad game and not be hassled for it. Believe me, I am not going out of my way to bash Jeff Green or any player in particular, unlike some other poster. Everyone is going to have a bad game, and Jeff is no exception. But when he does, stating the obvious and saying "Jeff needs to play better than that in order for us to have a chance to win the game" is not condemning him as a total failure. I don't expect him to put up 20 and 10 every night. I'm pretty sure that even if Jeff had an average game last night, we probably still would not have won, because ODU came out to play and shot the lights out. If he has an average game, big deal. We have other guys who are more than capable of picking up the slack if he just has an average game. The point is that he was a complete non-factor on both ends of the floor, and THAT is what cannot happen if we want any chance of winning. That goes for just about any best player or top player(s) on any team at any level. Potential All-American or not, that is a reality.

I don't believe I've "conveniently forgotten" the times he's played well. I realize you are talking about many posters on the board as a whole, but I know I've sung the praises of Jeff when he's had great games, and even when he's had a positive impact on games that didn't show up in the box score. So please don't lump me with the scores of posters who you believe are entirely too negative.

And just since you brought these specific games up:

Last year vs. JMU: 4 pts, 6 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk (33 min.)
Last year vs. 'Nova: 15 pts, 6 rebs, 6 asts, 1 stl (38 min.) --> I have no idea what you are talking about here
Last year vs. UNI: 2 pts, 7 rebs, 3 asts, 1 blk, 1 stl (37 min.)
Last night: 2 pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 1 blk (25 min.)

I wasn't there so I can't comment on the fouls he picked up. But this was easily his worst game numbers wise (and probably impact wise) , even if you compare them to the games you mentioned from last year.

[RBHoya]

rockawayhoya said:

I'm not "mad" at Jeff, first of all. I just think I should be allowed to criticize someone if they have a bad game and not be hassled for it. Believe me, I am not going out of my way to bash Jeff Green or any player in particular, unlike some other poster. Everyone is going to have a bad game, and Jeff is no exception. But when he does, stating the obvious and saying "Jeff needs to play better than that in order for us to have a chance to win the game" is not condemning him as a total failure. I don't expect him to put up 20 and 10 every night. I'm pretty sure that even if Jeff had an average game last night, we probably still would not have won, because ODU came out to play and shot the lights out. If he has an average game, big deal. We have other guys who are more than capable of picking up the slack if he just has an average game. The point is that he was a complete non-factor on both ends of the floor, and THAT is what cannot happen if we want any chance of winning. That goes for just about any best player or top player(s) on any team at any level. Potential All-American or not, that is a reality.

I don't believe I've "conveniently forgotten" the times he's played well. I realize you are talking about many posters on the board as a whole, but I know I've sung the praises of Jeff when he's had great games, and even when he's had a positive impact on games that didn't show up in the box score. So please don't lump me with the scores of posters who you believe are entirely too negative.

And just since you brought these specific games up:

Last year vs. JMU: 4 pts, 6 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk (33 min.)
Last year vs. 'Nova: 15 pts, 6 rebs, 6 asts, 1 stl (38 min.) --> I have no idea what you are talking about here
Last year vs. UNI: 2 pts, 7 rebs, 3 asts, 1 blk, 1 stl (37 min.)
Last night: 2 pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 1 blk (25 min.)

I wasn't there so I can't comment on the fouls he picked up. But this was easily his worst game numbers wise (and probably impact wise) , even if you compare them to the games you mentioned from last year.

Re: Nova, I meant '04-'05, which was the reason for putting the year in the first place, and I screwed it up. The game at MCI, the one we desperately needed after choking at St. Johns, and where Jeff was pretty much stymied by Jason Fraser and Will Sherridan.

And you may've misread me a bit, but I wasn't criticizing people for forgetting the times he's played well; rather, I was criticizing people for forgetting the times he plays poorly, convincing themselves he's better than he really is because that's what they want to believe, and then suggesting it's his fault when he doesn't live up to those expectations.

There is, to a certain degree, an inexorable truth that without Jeff playing well, there are a lot of teams that are going to beat us, as we don't seem to have the firepower elsewhere. But if you (and here and everywhere else I mean you plural) didn't account for "Jeff's off nights" in your preseason predictions/expectations, that's an oversight by you. Because it was pretty clear that they'd happen.

As for having your own opinions, sure, everyone's entitled, I just think it's unfair to point the finger at a college player for disappointing when in fact the REASON he was disappointing was because you set your expectations unfairly high or because you subconsciously overlooked his weaknesses.

[tal1286]

If that's the reality of Jeff Green at least we can expect him to be back next year because I kinda doubt an NBA team will take even a flyer on a player who is wildly inconsistent.

[Filo]

Geez, talk about PC run amok. Jeff played poorly and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out. There is nothing controversial about that. I have high expectations of him -- he has a scholarship, he has proven he is a very good player, and he is one of the more experienced players on the team. No, I don't think I am ready to blame myself for bneing disappointed in his performance against ODU. Ludicrous.

[williambraskyiii]

[quote/] Jeff didn't ask for Brandon and Ashanti to graduate. He didn't ask to be the team's "go-to-guy". He was voted a captain by his teammates and accepted, but that's about it.
[/quote]

what are you JG's girlfriend? who knows what the kid is thinking. he played like poop last night and everyone is disappointed in his performance, ok? it doesn't go any further than that into some kind of psychoanalysis of Jeff or the fans subconscious. if Jeff doesn't want the hype, then that is another reason i am going to be disappointed, because great players elevate their games when they are challenged...let's hope Jeff can do the same.

some of the people on this Board are such EDITED it is ridiculous...why have we gotten all soft and cuddly...I wish doseofreality was back on - we need some fire...all of a sudden some criticism is seen as heresy. give me a break.

That quote you made above RB sounds suspiciously like our friend Joe Lang's quote to the WashPost during the Years That We Don't Talk About. it is like one of the nihilists in Big Lebowski, "Its not faaaaaaaaair!"

these are the expectations of a great program - the program that we all aspire to be...

[HOYAPLAYA]

tal1286 said:

If that's the reality of Jeff Green at least we can expect him to be back next year because I kinda doubt an NBA team will take even a flyer on a player who is wildly inconsistent.

I would bet UCONN fans were telling themselves the same thing last year concerning Rudy Gay. The fact is that the NBA is about potential and there will be those that think the system while showcasing everything that Jeff can do is partially to blame for his inconsistency.

[RockawayHoya]

RB, I'm confused. So you're telling me that since Jeff has had some games the past two years where he's been wildly inconsistent or bad, I'm supposed to lower my expectations for him this year and pencil him in for bad games since there's a precedent for his occasional poor play? So since Roy could barely run his freshman year without tripping over himself or barely catch a pass without fumbling it, I'm supposed to assume that he's going to be immobile and have stone hands for the rest of his GU career? That makes absolutely no sense. Players, especially those of higher caliber (such as Jeff), are supposed to improve their consistency as they mature and gain experience. It's what Ashanti did last year. It's what Roy did towards the end of last year. So if I'm crazy for expecting that Jeff would be more consistent this year with his play after having gone through another season in the BE and an off-season spent working on his game, then call me crazy.

I haven't forgotten his other poor performances either. If a player plays well, I'll praise him for his play. If a player plays poorly, then I'll say he played poorly. No, I'm not going to go to the games and boo subpar performances and rag on certain players. But this is an Internet message board. If I can't say someone played bad when it's indisputable that they did without having to "blame myself," there is something seriously wrong.

Tal is right. If he's going to be "wildly inconsistent" all year, and we're supposed to "expect it" and not act disappointed when it happens, then Jeff shouldn't be disappointed when he has to come back next year.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Jeff Green is my co-pilot.

[RockawayHoya]

Just read FL's recap and specifically, his blurb on Jeff. So is FL supposed to take the blame for being shocked by "Jeff's worst game he can think of that he's ever seen from him?" Should he have seen that coming, and adjusted his expectations for Jeff accordingly?

[GIGAFAN99]

rockawayhoya said:

Just read FL's recap and specifically, his blurb on Jeff. So is FL supposed to take the blame for being shocked by "Jeff's worst game he can think of that he's ever seen from him?" Should he have seen that coming, and adjusted his expectations for Jeff accordingly?

Yes he should see it coming, and when it does, we should hug Jeff EDITED.

Oh yeah, this will be deleted...

ask and ye shall receive

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Even if that gets deleted it made me laugh for a solid minute.

[FLHoya]

rockawayhoya said:

Just read FL's recap and specifically, his blurb on Jeff. So is FL supposed to take the blame for being shocked by "Jeff's worst game he can think of that he's ever seen from him?" Should he have seen that coming, and adjusted his expectations for Jeff accordingly?

I'm not quite sure if there's a way to explain this that makes complete sense...but here goes:

In my recaps, when it comes to the player evaluations, I try to have as narrow a perspective as possible. I'm evaluting one game and one game only. Using phrases like "worst game I can think of" is something of a rarity for me, I don't like sounding that reactionary (or the possibility that someone will quote THAT LINE out of the entire recap! ).

However, in the recap as a whole, I try to bring some kind of even-handed perspective to the situation, and look forward. That's why the opening part of this recap ends with the thing about McDonough going back to being a practice gym this morning, and the thing about the Georgia Dome. That tends to be most important, I fell, after losses when the fan mood swings really violently from one direction to another. I have more fun writing about, say, last year's Cuse game than last year's South Florida game (those were consecutive recaps)...but I feel more obligated to "turn something good in" after a loss.

So what's this all have to do with Jeff Green?

(EDIT: If your answer has anything to do with ovulation...I totally do not blame you.)

Well, I don't concern myself with labels when I write recaps. I don't care what preseason honors Jeff Green was given this year, just as I don't care what our recruits were ranked* or what kind of hype follows the team. None of that has anything to do directly with on-court performance.

(*If you'll notice, I don't think I've done very detailed recaps at all about Macklin, Summers, or Rivers, and that's on purpose).

When I say Jeff had a bad game last night, I don't see that in the light of him being a preseason All-whatever. I see it in the narrow light of him having had a bad game last night.

Is Jeff Green an integral part of the offense? Absolutely.

He is because he can impact a game in a zillion different ways just on offense, including post-up scoring, dribble penetration (we love you Aaron Gray!), three point shooting, and some of the best passing I've seen from a big man in quite a while.

The reason I say Jeff had such a bad game, perhaps the "worst" is b/c he didn't impact the game in any of those areas last night.

I'd like to think that it's implied in my writing that I do take a longer-term view of what that means to the team...typically, whenever I make a comment like "I don't know what to say" that's my way of throwing my hands up on the short-term implications and giving someone a pass NOT for the specific performance necessarily, but from me drawing any conclusions from it for the time being.

[OldHoyafan]

My original post was not meant to be a Jeff Green bashing post. He had a bad game. Its going to happen to him and other members of the team throughout the year.
The point I was trying to make was that, ODU being a good experienced mid major team aside, they are not a top 25 team. Any "team" collectively can have a bad game and lose ala Kansas. But we had four starters that were in double digits in scoring and ODU had four starters that were in double digits and we lose by 13 points! Jeff Green is a great player, but we should not lose by 13 points to a mid-major when four starters have double digit games. Obviously ODU packed it in around Hibbert, so what was done to change the momentum when the 3's were not falling and they were going on a 20 to 6 something run?(fullcourt press, going small, etc.)
Again, I love JT3, and he may be way ahead of me on this and knew this exposure of our lack of depth was coming. So he just allowed it to be exposed early before the conference games. In hopes that someone or some others on the bench will step up and provide the team with a lift ,ala Owens, when either Jeff or Roy is a no-show. Now there appears to be a depth of frontcourt talent on the bench. The question is how does JT3 utilize that to kick start a sluggish team if the other team is packing it in? I have faith that he has a plan. I was just shocked after looking at the boxscore.

[OldHoyafan]

I forgot to add that the title of my original post was taken from the comments of the coaching staff after the ODU game. It implied to me that you should expect the Hoyas to struggle against all teams when Jeff has a bad game no matter what the other starters are doing. I was not questioning Jeff's importance to the team.