NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 6, 2006 18:33:31 GMT -5
I am with SFHoya on this one. There is no problem with Thornton not receiving playing time, especially if he will be liability on the court in terms of turnovers or defense. Our seniors are still learning how to play in this offense. To expect a freshman to come in and just get it, is a little much.
Also, the only way to build a great team is to build great depth so that injuries and graduations do not force the team into rebuilding mode. These freshmen knew who was on this team and knew that they would not get major PT right away, it would be like this at any quality program. Starting 3 freshmen last year was an abberation and no consistently good team can experience that year over year. Not long ago freshman rarely expected to play major minutes. Thornton will get his chance and he knows that. If he didn't he would have gone to a mid-major and played right away.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 6, 2006 19:36:17 GMT -5
If Thornton doesn't get PT because he is horrible in practice then that's one thing. But if he's being kept off the court because of depth then maybe this should have been considered when he was being recruited. MCI, just wondering if you thought we should carry only eight or nine scholarship players. Any team that runs 13 scholarships will have three or four players who rarely see the court. What's wrong with a freshman not getting much time?1)Just sticking to a local perspective, I don't recall JT II ever having a problem using 11 to 12 of his players per game. I don't recall Gary Williams having that problem. And Karl Hobbs uses almost all of his lineup as well per game. Of course this is not to say that III has to run his program like theirs or coach like them. But since you were asking about using more than 8 or 9 players I decided to bring those names up. I don't think there is anything more annoying than coaches, college or pros, who rely only on 7 or 8 guys 90% of the times. That's the post-championship Pat Riley approach. What's the point in that? What's the point in having the extra players? For injuries purposes? Well, I'd be more confident in those guys filling in for those misfortunes if they actually got run on the court during games beforehand. If they can't get a couple of minutes against Savannah St am I'm supposed to feel good about the team's chances if they have to get heavy minutes against Villanova as a result of injuries? Look, if you only one play 8 players then recruit 10 or 11. If you're going to recruit a full 13 then make sure the last two are of the top 300 caliber and just happy to be there and contribute in practice. Recruiting top 75, top 100 and even top 150 guys and not giving them much run even against the dregs of the schedule is a head-scratching decision to me. And I emphasize to me. Its just my opinion so lets not confuse me with the JT II bashers or Esh bashers who took shots at those guys with glee over mostly everything they did. That's not what I'm trying to be with III, I have tremendous respect for the guy. But I can question moves I find questionable. If I can do it with Joe Gibbs who has three rings I can surely have such questions about III too. And yes I'm aware both men know far more about their respective sports than I do. But as a fan I reserve that right. And I will write one more time that this is not just about this season, its about what I saw last season and it scares me for next season when the talent will be better than what the team has had in a decade. Now we're talking about top fifty players and a stud in Ewing. Are we going to keep sticking to eight? If so get prepared for some major problems from unhappy players and parents. But I guess the response for that from people will be "hey, if they don't want to be here and be patient they can walk, yada, yada, yada." Okay. We'll see. 2)As for what's wrong with not playing freshmen all I can say this isn't 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980 anymore. Sure there was selfishness back then too but now its a major problem. Players want playing time even if they are frosh. That's part of the times now. Its not just about starting, its about getting on the court and contributing. I know people are obsessed with game time, but I think practice can help as well. Who plays better defense? Georgetown or Providence? There is some value to live play but sometimes I think people think players only improve due to game time.Fair enough. But I'm a little concerned that the main six still seem to be slowly learning despite having practice time AND actual game time. If they need both to get comfortable with this system then some of the current bench players may end up being slower to catch on because of lack of minutes or non-existent minutes. Next season we don't have Bowman, Owens and Cook. This team next year will have to rely a bunch on a couple of perimeter players who at this rate don't look they will have much game experience. Were I coach, and Josh the best shooter, I'd definitely get him minutes in games where our other shooters are cold.
But I doubt Josh will hit 60 or 70%, so it is tough to sit Jon or Ashanti for him.You see I think players should get regular minutes during a week (if not every game) regardless if there are other players who do the same things they do are ahead of them. Of course its easier to do when you're pressing or pushing the tempo and therefore creating more possesions.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 6, 2006 19:48:56 GMT -5
That last line kinda sums it up for me: "Of course its easier to do when you're pressing or pushing the tempo and therefore creating more possesions."
JTII definitely ran out ten or more a game. I don't know if Gary does or not; I don't want UMCP.
But the Elder pressed, played intense D and played a lot faster pace. (And people still criticized his shuttle-style substitutions!)
But for every Elder, there's a Coach K who runs out seven or eight, max. So I don't think there's a forumla either way.
I just guess people are going to complain either way. If we ran out ten, people would complain that Jeff gets even less shots. They would complain that playing Josh keeps Ashanti from getting in a rhythm.
Our offense has been pretty good. There's the potential to be better. I guess I'm sort of a wait and see kind of guy right now.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 6, 2006 19:49:19 GMT -5
I am with SFHoya on this one. There is no problem with Thornton not receiving playing time, especially if he will be liability on the court in terms of turnovers or defense. Our seniors are still learning how to play in this offense. To expect a freshman to come in and just get it, is a little much. I get where you're coming from but I have to counter with the same point: if our seniors and other starters are having still this much difficulty with over a season's worth of major minutes in games under their belt how much behind the eightball will Thornton, Spann and to a lesser extent Sapp and Egerson be when they have to step in and fill those roles next season after such little court time? I would go back and check some of the quotes from these guys when they chose GTown. I don't think any of them expected to be given a starter's position and maybe a couple realized they weren't going to start period (although these days most of these top 150 players think, deep down, they should start immediately). But most appeared to be under the impression, after their meetings with the coaches, that they would make immediate on-court contributions to the team. This doesn't mean they are ready to do so but I'm pretty sure they didn't expect to get a DNP against squads such as Navy or James Madison. Really? How come UConn, despite its regular great starting five, always manage to find solid minutes for 10 to 11 guys per game? And I could go on and on about other teams to do this. This is not to say that its the best way to play but lets not kid ourselves by thinking all teams stick to only eight guys in their regular rotation.
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vagrant
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Post by vagrant on Jan 6, 2006 20:08:39 GMT -5
Since I have never coached a D-I school to a win, or coached one for that matter, and since I do not watch the players in practice day in and day out, I have no opinion whether Sapp should penetrate or how many minutes Dagger should get. I leave that up to JTIII. He has been doing a good job so far, no? Just my two cents from the park bench. -vagrant
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 6, 2006 22:45:06 GMT -5
I have no problem admitting I am much more in favor of a smaller rotation for the style we play. If we pressed and exerted maximum energy I would be fine with shuffling in and out players like UConn does or JT2, but I don't see us playing a style near UConn's pace. We play a rhythm offense and I want our best players on the court for the few offensive possessions we actually do have.
I am also not in favor of playing guys because they do one thing well. What good is it to put a guy in to shoot a few threes and have his man blow past him on defense and cause foul trouble for our big guys? I am sure there are legit reasons to play other guys, perhaps the one above. I trust JT3 to play the guys that give us the best chance to win and I am sure the rotation will change over the course of the season. We are not in practice so no one can know for sure who deserves time except the players and coaches.
There is little doubt that these freshmen are getting a great understanding of offense by practicing it everyday against the guys who run it. I am definitely not one to underestimate the importance and advantage of practice.
I agree freshman play more now, of course. But we are not talking about benching McDonald's All-Americans here. These guys did have offers from other majors, but would they be getting minutes at those programs?My point is, if they wanted to start as a frosh they would have gone to a mid-major. Sure they came expecting playing time (we don't recruit posers) but there is NO way JT3 or any coach promises these kids playing time. Likely, he promised them a chance to earn playing time in a true meritocracy, but without experience in this offense, it is almost impossible to crack the line-up.
This whole situation puzzles me, we finally have some depth and we are not enjoying how this will benefit the team's future. It is a luxury to be able to sit these freshman and allow them to learn yet we are upset about it.
Let's have some more trust in JT3, he knows how to win.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 6, 2006 23:23:47 GMT -5
Agree totally, NCHoya. Took the words right out of my mouth.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 7, 2006 0:14:04 GMT -5
The bottom line: "Development Time" is over.
We have ten guys:
25-30 Minutes (The Core)
The Big Six
10-15 Minutes (The Bench)
Egerson and Sapp
0-5 Minutes (Fill-ins)
Crawford and AKD
These guys earned it and it's not surprising (Top 8 returning players, a fifth year recruit, and our highest-ranked recruit). Everyone else is working towards next year by giving it their all in practice.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Jan 7, 2006 9:04:52 GMT -5
Thornton will have a chance to step into Ashanti's role next year. He is a combo guard and I think even quicker and a better ball handler than Ashanti was as a sophomore. Combined with the fact that none of Sapp, Egerson or Crawford have shown that they can shoot and DJ and Brandon will also be gone, Thornton will be in the mix. Hope he's ready or that Jeremiah can shoot.
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HOYAPLAYA
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IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Jan 7, 2006 11:02:24 GMT -5
Thornton will have a chance to step into Ashanti's role next year. He is a combo guard and I think even quicker and a better ball handler than Ashanti was as a sophomore. Combined with the fact that none of Sapp, Egerson or Crawford have shown that they can shoot and DJ and Brandon will also be gone, Thornton will be in the mix. Hope he's ready or that Jeremiah can shoot. I don't agree. I actually think that Wallace will step over into Ashanti's role and that Sapp will take over as point. I have no basis for this argument besides the fact that Wallace will be the veteran guard who will be expected to step up and make more plays. Who was it that said "the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores". I think we are starting to see it already with Wallace and Hibbert. Unfortunately, not so much with JG but I think some consistent outings are coming very soon (WVU game is my bet).
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