Sapp's role

[hoyaboy1]

The way we are using Sapp is really starting to bother me. I had high hopes for him entering the season, but he won't play well until we realize that he and Jon Wallace are not the same player.

It makes sense for Wallace to hang around the 3 point line all game - but it is absurd to have Sapp, who is not a good shooter, to do the same. He is a penetrator. When two guys as different as these two have the exact same role in the offense, something needs to change.

On the year, Wallace is 20/39 from 3, and 14/30 from 2. Sapp is 3/19 from 3 and 10/15 from 2. If Sapp isn't going to be encouraged to penetrate we honestly should just play Thornton instead.

[bmartin]

They were facing a zone defense with Hibbert posting up and Bowman or Green in the high-post seam around the foul line. They got plenty of open shots inside and out by spreading the floor and moving the ball. There wasn't much opportunity for dribble penetration.

[hoyaboy1]

I'm talking about the whole season. Sapp and Wallace taking the same percentage of 3s is crazy.

[CAHoya07]

I agree, I would like to see Sapp penetrate more and jack up less threes. I'm never opposed to a player taking an open shot, but Sapp seems to have too quick of a trigger much of the time. The FG numbers pretty much speak for themselves. I think out of our guards, Sapp's the best penetrator on the team. Hopefully as the season goes and his confidence keeps growing, we'll see more dribble pentration from him, something our team sorely lacks.

[SFHoya99]

hoyaboy1 said:

I'm talking about the whole season. Sapp and Wallace taking the same percentage of 3s is crazy.

Well, it isn't a good thing, but crazy seems strong. I know people want to see a competent offense, but it seems like we are really picking.

I bet, as Jesse gets used to playing in the BE and the whole team gets better that he not only penetrates more but also hits more of his three's. He's not nearly as bad of a shooter as he has performed.

[SaxaCD]

His 3 yesterday was sweet. He also really moved the ball well on the perimeter after that one disastrous lazy pass he made during our horrible first half stretch. I think as he gains more experience he will play his own game more. I like what he brings, and I hope he can accelerate his learning curve a bit, because he has skills we could really use.

I wish Josh got some time, though. He was regarded as one of the very best long-range shooters in his class. Our offense could really use that, if he can lose more of the quick or bad shots from his repertoire.

[HOYAPLAYA]

Can I just ask that we all slow down with all this talk about what Sapp should be doing on the basketball court. Let's stop making the kid into a McD AA and let him adjust to the college game. Do you know what would be happening if Sapp was penetrating a whole bunch...A BUNCH OF TURNOVERS THAT EVERYONE HEAR WOULD BE BASHING HIM ABOUT. The kids a freshman and should play within the offense that III has established. I'm sure as the season progresses and his confidence grows, he'll do a little more of what everyone is calling for. For now, I'm happy with him swinging it around the perimeter to our upperclassmen and occasionally taking a shot when it presents itself within the offense.

[Gtown4Life]

I've been thinking the same thing about Thornton getting some more PT. Watching the illini games, maybe he could be our Jamar Smith who comes in as a 3 point specialist and helps out the team greatly.

[GIGAFAN99]

I can only think there's a reason he's not playing and that reason is probably that he's a defensive liability right now. If you look at Egerson and Sapp, the one thing they share is their defense is solid enough to play in this league. That's often the biggest hurdle for freshmen.

[SaxaCD]

You're probably right about that.

[RBHoya]

Jessie is definitely the best penetrating guard we have, but that's not really saying a lot considering how poor Ashanti and Jon are at getting to the basket. Just not their game. Anyway, I'm not sure why Jessie isn't attacking the hoop. That's what he was known for before he came here, and that's what we were expecting from him, but aside from a few nice drives he really hasn't lived up to his slasher reputation. And that may be a product of the offense, or it may not. It may be that Jessie is feeling confident in his outside shot, despite the numbers. I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that if a player like Jessie can get to the basket but isn't a good shooter, that we should let him drive and not stand around the perimeter and chuck. I'm sure Coach Thompson is aware of that, but for some reason we haven't seen Jessie attack. I have to think that that's a result of Jessie's decision-making moreso than Coach telling him not to attack and to shoot 3's instead, when it's a secret to nobody that his shooting needs work. I think that SF is right that as the season progresses and Jessie gets more comfortable with the flow of things, you'll see him attack the basket more. Another thing to consider is the defense... I mean PC played zone, and so have some of the other opponents, and it's tougher to drive to the hoop against a 2-3, and easier to beat the zone with good passing and good outside shooting. But overall, if you're defending Jessie, how would you go about doing it? To me it seems obvious--the scouting report on the guy has always been that he's a slasher, and he's making, what, like 15% of his 3 point shots? I'd hang way back off of him, let him put up the outside shot and not let him get a step on me going toward the basket. If he can start hitting his outside shots and forcing defenders to play up on him, that'll make it even easier for him to blow past them on his way to the hole.

And speaking of Thornton, I'm still hoping that III finds some minutes for our old pal Dagger during the Big East year. Obviously, we have to put the best players on the court because winning games is paramount. However, for the long-term health of the team, I still think developing Josh is important. He's got good quickness, quicker than John or Ashanti definitely, maybe even quicker than Jessie (very close if not). I think he has the potential to be an above-average defender with some work, just like Jessie does. He also has the potential to be a very good shooter. In high school, basketball scouts were calling him "legitimately one of the best shooters we've seen in the past few years." It's no secret he struggles with decision making, but I think the only way he'll improve is with playing time. Same for his defense--the tools are there, but the only way he's going to get better is by getting into the game.

[hoyaboy1]

I am also confident that Jessie will improve, and his D has been fine. But right now he serves almost no purpose on offense, since he is basically confined to the weakest part of his game - jacking up threes.

I'm just a little worried that there seems to be no role differentiation between Sapp and Wallace.

[HOYAPLAYA]

Let me throw out some crazy ideas of why Thornton isn't playing.

-We have one Senior guard who knows the offense and is shooting 46% from 3 pt range

-We have another Sophomore guard who knows the offense and is shooting 51% from 3 pt range

-JT III feels more comfortable with Sapp, Egerson and Crawford off the bench than he does with Thornton at this point in the season.

If my memory serves me correctly, didn't Crawford see very limited action in early Big East contests only to see about 10-15 minutes per game toward the end of the season.

Let's just give these kids some time to be good and not throw them in there because they were the best "penetrator" or "shooter" in a long time according to some HS scout. I haven't seen anything yet that shows me that III will do anything other than play the players that are giving the best effort AND a chance to win the game.

[RBHoya]

He definitely puts the best players out there to win the game. And he should. But next year that Senior guard is going to be gone, as will be our senior SF and our best shooter/senior swingman. Somebody needs to hit outside shots for us. If Thornton doesn't play much for the balance of this year, then NEXT year would have to be his year to learn/get in the flow, and that would mean he wouldn't be able to be our guy to count on for outside shooting. And if we're just relying on Jon and Jeff next year to hit from outside, and still running this same offense, it could be a real problem.

I definitely don't expect Josh or Jessie to play based on high school accolades. Those rankings mean nothing once you step onto the court. And I agree that winning games is by far priority number one. But if we could mannage to develop our young guys in the course of winning some games, that'd be ideal, and I think Josh is someone who we could really stand to develop considering what we're losing after this season.

And while Tyler was probably a bit less than 10 mpg down the stretch last year (following his big game @ BC: DNP vs. Hall at home, lot of minutes at Rutgers, 7 vs. WVU, 3 @ ND, 9 @ SJU, 4 vs. Nova, 9 @ UConn blowout, 13 vs. PC, 7 vs. SHU BET, 5 vs. UCONN BET), I see your point but think it's apples to oranges. Last year we were going 7 deep most of the year, and the minutes were waiting for Tyler to be ready to take them, as he was the 8th man, just not earning the time yet. This year there are a lot more people ahead of Josh in the depth chart, as we have the starting five, DJ, Jessie, Tyler, and Marc. That means he's the 10th man, not the 8th, and if he's going to get minutes, III's going to have to manufacture them for him. They won't come to him by default. Additionally, Tyler's development was not as crucial as Josh's because we didn't graduate any contributors last year, and we were also bringing in a slew of guys that play Tyler's position. It wasn't like Tyler brought something crucial to the table--he was last year, is now, and always will be, a solid bench player with an all-around game. Josh was brought in to do one thing well--shoot--and next year, we need people who can shoot. Thus, the development of Josh this year is significantly more important to next year's team than the development of Tyler was to this year's team.

Anyway, I don't wanna hijack this Sapp thread with a big thing about Thornton. Just wanted to point out that I'm not complaining about Coach's substitution pattern or trying to act like I know better than he does about who should play and who doesn't; I'm merely saying that I'm hopeful that Josh finds his way onto the floor in some games that aren't blowouts during the course of the big east season.

[hoya73]

I don't disagree that it'd be nice to see Thornton get some minutes, but next year besides Jon and Jeff we should have D. Summers hitting from outside. Although that's counting on a freshman to be as good as he seems to be. My hope for minutes from Thornton is that we actually have some comfortable 15+ point leads with ten minutes to go. Maybe the USF games

[RockawayHoya]

I have the feeling most teams are going to zone against us because: A) Roy is now an offensive threat, and B) our shooters, despite shooting well from 3 in the OOC games, have still not proven they can shoot at a high percentage from 3 in BE play. Until we can prove our perimeter guys can knock down 3's with regularity, teams will continue to zone to try to take Roy/Jeff out of the game and make our guards beat them from outside. What this means is that guys like Sapp will have less chances to penetrate to the basket, as several on this thread are calling for. I'm hoping guys like Wallace and Cook can continue to hit 3's enough so that teams might be forced to play a little more man on us. When that happens, Jessie will have an easier time driving into the lane.

And I think the rotation is fine as is. Crawford doesn't play simply because he has mental lapses on the defensive end of the floor. Regardless of whether or not he's an above average rebounder for his size or if he brings energy, you aren't going to get significant minutes in important periods of games if you can't stay with your man or screw up your defensive assignment. And as for Thornton, JTIII must feel he's not ready yet. At this point, I wouldn't want him taking anybody's minutes just for the sake of developing him. If anything, I'd like to know if AKD really deserves to be coming off the bench before Spann if Jeff/Roy get into foul trouble. I love AKD's effort and he has shown marked improvement this year in his limited time, but is he a better option than Spann?

[hoyabinx]

hoyaplaya said:

Let me throw out some crazy ideas of why Thornton isn't playing.

-We have one Senior guard who knows the offense and is shooting 46% from 3 pt range

-We have another Sophomore guard who knows the offense and is shooting 51% from 3 pt range

-JT III feels more comfortable with Sapp, Egerson and Crawford off the bench than he does with Thornton at this point in the season.

EXACTLY. This as well as RB's analysis that he is the 10th man is accurate. We don't need a 3 point specialist, we have 3 good shooters (Owens, Cook, Wallace). We just need a slasher, i.e. Sapp, which we have. A slasher and an smart, aggressive leader Bowman is all we need to make this team to be top 25.

[MCIGuy]

hoyabinx said:

hoyaplaya said:

Let me throw out some crazy ideas of why Thornton isn't playing.

-We have one Senior guard who knows the offense and is shooting 46% from 3 pt range

-We have another Sophomore guard who knows the offense and is shooting 51% from 3 pt range

-JT III feels more comfortable with Sapp, Egerson and Crawford off the bench than he does with Thornton at this point in the season.




If Thornton doesn't get PT because he is horrible in practice then that's one thing. But if he's being kept off the court because of depth then maybe this should have been considered when he was being recruited.

There are suggestions that Thornton has to learn the system and get more experience. Well, how will he ever get that opportunity if he is always on the bench? The main six players on this team are STILL learning this system it seems despite playing major minutes for about 40 games under this sytem. If they are still grasping it then how far behind will Thornton be next season after getting under 40 minutes of total playing time during his freshmen year?

I also hold firmly to my opinion that he is or at least potentially close to being the best three point shooter on the team. Bowman was even quoted indicating as such in a recent article. I would love to see him get 7 to 10 minutes a game but I'd be lucky to see him get that in a month's worth of games.

By the way everytime I see Sapp sit around the perimeter taking a three or hear about that over the radio, I feel the urge to throw something. He should drive much more than he is now.

[SFHoya99]

mciguy said:

If Thornton doesn't get PT because he is horrible in practice then that's one thing. But if he's being kept off the court because of depth then maybe this should have been considered when he was being recruited.

MCI, just wondering if you thought we should carry only eight or nine scholarship players. Any team that runs 13 scholarships will have three or four players who rarely see the court. What's wrong with a freshman not getting much time?

There are suggestions that Thornton has to learn the system and get more experience. Well, how will he ever get that opportunity if he is always on the bench? The main six players on this team are STILL learning this system it seems despite playing major minutes for about 40 games under this sytem. If they are still grasping it then how far behind will Thornton be next season after getting under 40 minutes of total playing time during his freshmen year?

I also hold firmly to my opinion that he is or at least potentially close to being the best three point shooter on the team. Bowman was even quoted indicating as such in a recent article. I would love to see him get 7 to 10 minutes a game but I'd be lucky to see him get that in a month's worth of games.

I know people are obsessed with game time, but I think practice can help as well. Who plays better defense? Georgetown or Providence? There is some value to live play but sometimes I think people think players only improve due to game time.

Were I coach, and Josh the best shooter, I'd definitely get him minutes in games where our other shooters are cold.

But I doubt Josh will hit 60 or 70%, so it is tough to sit Jon or Ashanti for him.

[lichoya68]

i think jesse and and brandon are the two best current and potential penatrators on the hoyas yup go hoyas flush the johnnies FLUSH THE JOHNNIES SUNDAY