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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 21, 2024 20:10:16 GMT -5
It’s the annual summer tradition of HT talking themselves into a streaky shooter being a good shooter. Williams got his reputation as he had a pretty good shooting AAU summer highlighted by a big game over the #1 team where he was on fire. Even with that game and the somewhat limited attempts he finished the summer at 39% which is good but hardly knock down shooter range. He went through a stretch of games last year where he was 3/30 and in that stretch he was 1/20. Good shooters don’t do that. He was also only a 71% FT shooter. Again that’s fine but hardly elite. Like many past Hoyas he can get hot but is not very consistent right now. He certainly doesn’t fill the shooting need for this team. Those pointing out other players who had bad FR stats are guys who never became great consistent. Otto had his great year and was just obviously a different level of player. Curtis took more 3s last season than pretty much all of them did in their SR seasons as well. There’s also people touting his defense here when anyone that watched Louisville could see he was their worst defender. He was only a freshman and as I said before one year does not make a career. The thing I will say is he is young for his class which is the biggest reason for hope. I don’t think he was an egregious pickup by any means. Just this early in the cycle and with what we already have it didn’t seem like a need. Pretty much everything that is said about him says good shooter. I have not seen his senior year stats, it was his junior year that he shot 39%. He reportedly shot very well for the Family in AAU and game writeups/youtube highlights show multiple threes per game. Having said that, 39% is really good for a high volume high schooler. WhY are we using 21 free throw attempts to prove anything? What people say about people only goes so far. People said Mescheriakov was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Stephen Domingo was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Reggie Cameron was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Kaiden Rice was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Ismael Massoud was a good shooter. He wasn't (at least not for us). So, I'll believe that Williams is a good shooter once he is...a good shooter. A lot of guards do make jumps between freshman/sophomore year, so hopefully Williams will do that. But, we haven't had a great history with these sorts of players, so I think it makes sense that some of us would be skeptical. And while the free throws are definitely a small sample, really excellent shooters usually do better than that. We will see.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 21, 2024 20:10:53 GMT -5
Otto: 22% from 3 as a FR LJ: 24% Jessie Sapp: 20% Jagan: 24% Markel: 25% All total flameouts - never heard from again. Sure. But there's more who started there and never got better. Like I said ... our recent history with shooting specialists / great hs shooters is pretty godawful. I hope he simply had a bad freshmen year but certainly we'd all feel better if he had shot 40% from 3 last year? Of course. But he may not have been accessible to us had he shot 40%. My point is simply that it's absolutely worth a flyer on a kid that is a rising SO with good size and might be able to fill a need. If he doesn't, he doesn't. The way the world works now, if he shoots 22% this year he will know his PT won't be there moving forward and will end up transferring to Marist or something next year.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 22, 2024 0:01:11 GMT -5
The thing I will say is he is young for his class which is the biggest reason for hope. I don’t think he was an egregious pickup by any means. Just this early in the cycle and with what we already have it didn’t seem like a need. He’ll be a 20-yr old sophomore this November. He’s the older kid in his class.
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Apr 22, 2024 7:23:23 GMT -5
Pretty much everything that is said about him says good shooter. I have not seen his senior year stats, it was his junior year that he shot 39%. He reportedly shot very well for the Family in AAU and game writeups/youtube highlights show multiple threes per game. Having said that, 39% is really good for a high volume high schooler. WhY are we using 21 free throw attempts to prove anything? What people say about people only goes so far. People said Mescheriakov was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Stephen Domingo was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Reggie Cameron was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Kaiden Rice was a good shooter. He wasn't. People said Ismael Massoud was a good shooter. He wasn't (at least not for us). So, I'll believe that Williams is a good shooter once he is...a good shooter. A lot of guards do make jumps between freshman/sophomore year, so hopefully Williams will do that. But, we haven't had a great history with these sorts of players, so I think it makes sense that some of us would be skeptical. And while the free throws are definitely a small sample, really excellent shooters usually do better than that. We will see. Rice shot 37% on 8 attempts per game, i call that a good shooter. Many decent shooters have a 20 sample stretch where they are below 80% Whether he can shoot at the college level remains to be seen,but lets not act like his reputation as a good shooter came from nowhere
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bills
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Post by bills on Apr 22, 2024 8:19:18 GMT -5
Curtis is the 6th player we have at the SG and SF positions. If he can demonstrate good outside shooting in practice he will see some playing time. How good he shoots in games, and his defensive abilities, will determine how much playing time. I think this was a good addition for the 11th spot on our team. I agree with the posts that have said with who we have on the roster now, it would be very difficult to attract someone with much higher potential.
We still have two available scholarships, three if Ryan decides to go to a graduate program at another school or just leave the team because he has graduated. This is not taking a scholarship that could have gone to a much more talented player. I would love to pick up a one year Center who can help Sorber learn to play at the BE level and split the playing time with him so Fielder can focus on being a top stretch 4 and give us 2 strong rebounders in the game. My choice for the last spot would be a good mid-major athletic PF to back up Fielder. With those two additions I would be very disappointed with not having a winning record in the BE.
If Ryan does leave, my choice for that scholarship would be another incoming freshman, perhaps a highly regarded one who reopens his recruitment due to a coaching change.
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traversb
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Post by traversb on Apr 22, 2024 15:51:53 GMT -5
The thing I will say is he is young for his class which is the biggest reason for hope. I don’t think he was an egregious pickup by any means. Just this early in the cycle and with what we already have it didn’t seem like a need. He’ll be a 20-yr old sophomore this November. He’s the older kid in his class. You are right. For some reason I remembered him being an 05 kid but I was wrong. I was looking for reasons for optimism for why he look so overwhelmed this year. He was a kid that matured early so he should be used to his body. I'm not sure he has grown since his sophomore year which is why he fell down the recruiting rankings. My new optimism take is Kenny Payne is the worst coach ever not named Patrick Ewing so maybe Williams will thrive with better coaching. As a player though I can't imagine transferring from the dumpster fire that has been Louisville to the dumpster fire that has been Georgetown. I did forget about the Ryan scholarship situation so there is one more opening than I thought. That helps this situation. As someone else said if he shoots 28% again, he probably won't be here the following season anyways.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 22, 2024 19:18:47 GMT -5
Not to be negative but going into the off season all I heard was we need a true pg. A pass first floor leader. Like the mack commit but is he a pg? Seems little like Epps. Little concerned we are a bit better overall but didn’t address a severe need. Mack is viewed as a point guard by virtually every expert and fan. Whoever said anything about a pass-first point guard is living in the wrong century. You rarely find guys like that. Point guards get their points now too, not too many John Stocktons out there. Rowan had some of that old school mentality within him and I would have loved if he had stayed, but even with Rowan on the court that ball was not moving and there wasn’t much creating for teammates. Mack is far more dynamic with the rock and has great passing instincts and capabilities. His ability to score helps keep defenses off balance. Defenders were not concerned in the least in BE play when Rowan was on the court; all of their attention was focused on Epps. Mack gives Epps at the very least a teammate who should demand the defenses’ attention just as much, taking some of that focus off of Epps. He can also take away most of the ball handling responsibilities from Epps, who last season had to bring up the ball across half court more than anyone else…and then be counted on to score too. Maybe Epps won’t like that so much but it will be better for him nonetheless. Also Mack through drives and kickouts may be able to get Epps better open looks during games. Hopefully all of this will make Epps more rested and more efficient in BE play. And with an improved front court Epps can show off some more of his own creativity by dishing to teammates for scores. I'll add that the very best point guard that I have seen in my years of watching college hoops was Kenny Anderson. He was not a pass-first point guard but he was a GREAT passer. He had tremendous speed and quickness with the ball and could drive around people or drive to the hoop using either hand. His midrange shot was money and you had to respect him from deep. And he made outstanding passes to teammates. All of this made it difficult for defenses to contain him because you never knew which tool from his toolbox he was going to pull out. Although not a that level, I see some Anderson in Mack's game. Thanks for reopening a very old wound, MCI. For those not aware, Kenny wanted to attend Georgetown, but Pops didn't pursue him, correct?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 22, 2024 20:04:07 GMT -5
Mack is viewed as a point guard by virtually every expert and fan. Whoever said anything about a pass-first point guard is living in the wrong century. You rarely find guys like that. Point guards get their points now too, not too many John Stocktons out there. Rowan had some of that old school mentality within him and I would have loved if he had stayed, but even with Rowan on the court that ball was not moving and there wasn’t much creating for teammates. Mack is far more dynamic with the rock and has great passing instincts and capabilities. His ability to score helps keep defenses off balance. Defenders were not concerned in the least in BE play when Rowan was on the court; all of their attention was focused on Epps. Mack gives Epps at the very least a teammate who should demand the defenses’ attention just as much, taking some of that focus off of Epps. He can also take away most of the ball handling responsibilities from Epps, who last season had to bring up the ball across half court more than anyone else…and then be counted on to score too. Maybe Epps won’t like that so much but it will be better for him nonetheless. Also Mack through drives and kickouts may be able to get Epps better open looks during games. Hopefully all of this will make Epps more rested and more efficient in BE play. And with an improved front court Epps can show off some more of his own creativity by dishing to teammates for scores. I'll add that the very best point guard that I have seen in my years of watching college hoops was Kenny Anderson. He was not a pass-first point guard but he was a GREAT passer. He had tremendous speed and quickness with the ball and could drive around people or drive to the hoop using either hand. His midrange shot was money and you had to respect him from deep. And he made outstanding passes to teammates. All of this made it difficult for defenses to contain him because you never knew which tool from his toolbox he was going to pull out. Although not a that level, I see some Anderson in Mack's game. Thanks for reopening a very old wound, MCI. For those not aware, Kenny wanted to attend Georgetown, but Pops didn't pursue him, correct? Georgetown was his main interest six months ago," said Molloy coach Jack Curran to the Times. "But then the Olympics got in the way of his recruiting and Kenny really wanted to be recruited. At least John had to make some overture to him and he didn't. [Craig Esherick] called several times, but that's not the same." "They called a couple of times but I just didn't think they recruited me the way they should have," Anderson said. www.hoyabasketball.com/features/recruits/k_anderson.htm
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 22, 2024 20:11:23 GMT -5
Cliff setting up visits with Alabama and KSU. Safe to say we are probably out of the running here unfortunately…
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conshyhoya
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Post by conshyhoya on Apr 22, 2024 20:23:16 GMT -5
Cliff setting up visits with Alabama and KSU. Safe to say we are probably out of the running here unfortunately… Also read at least two other visits. I think one was UCLA and maybe UNC or USC. They aren't officially scheduled yet. I can't remember the second team.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Apr 22, 2024 22:36:32 GMT -5
Cliff setting up visits with Alabama and KSU. Safe to say we are probably out of the running here unfortunately… Also read at least two other visits. I think one was UCLA and maybe UNC or USC. They aren't officially scheduled yet. I can't remember the second team. Guy is looking for the highest bidder and is asking for a small fortune. Wouldn't say we're out - but I'd also be surprised if he ended up at GU.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 0:48:49 GMT -5
Mack is viewed as a point guard by virtually every expert and fan. Whoever said anything about a pass-first point guard is living in the wrong century. You rarely find guys like that. Point guards get their points now too, not too many John Stocktons out there. Rowan had some of that old school mentality within him and I would have loved if he had stayed, but even with Rowan on the court that ball was not moving and there wasn’t much creating for teammates. Mack is far more dynamic with the rock and has great passing instincts and capabilities. His ability to score helps keep defenses off balance. Defenders were not concerned in the least in BE play when Rowan was on the court; all of their attention was focused on Epps. Mack gives Epps at the very least a teammate who should demand the defenses’ attention just as much, taking some of that focus off of Epps. He can also take away most of the ball handling responsibilities from Epps, who last season had to bring up the ball across half court more than anyone else…and then be counted on to score too. Maybe Epps won’t like that so much but it will be better for him nonetheless. Also Mack through drives and kickouts may be able to get Epps better open looks during games. Hopefully all of this will make Epps more rested and more efficient in BE play. And with an improved front court Epps can show off some more of his own creativity by dishing to teammates for scores. I'll add that the very best point guard that I have seen in my years of watching college hoops was Kenny Anderson. He was not a pass-first point guard but he was a GREAT passer. He had tremendous speed and quickness with the ball and could drive around people or drive to the hoop using either hand. His midrange shot was money and you had to respect him from deep. And he made outstanding passes to teammates. All of this made it difficult for defenses to contain him because you never knew which tool from his toolbox he was going to pull out. Although not a that level, I see some Anderson in Mack's game. Thanks for reopening a very old wound, MCI. For those not aware, Kenny wanted to attend Georgetown, but Pops didn't pursue him, correct? Reopened? For me that wound and the Grant Hill one NEVER closed.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Apr 23, 2024 7:58:25 GMT -5
Also read at least two other visits. I think one was UCLA and maybe UNC or USC. They aren't officially scheduled yet. I can't remember the second team. Guy is looking for the highest bidder and is asking for a small fortune. Wouldn't say we're out - but I'd also be surprised if he ended up at GU. Probably a pretty good strategy for a kid who likely is a good college player and needs to cash in. Maybe our price & opportunity is right but if not, I am sure we are pursuing a few other avenues. The era of money ball is officially here.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 23, 2024 9:36:01 GMT -5
Guy is looking for the highest bidder and is asking for a small fortune. Wouldn't say we're out - but I'd also be surprised if he ended up at GU. Probably a pretty good strategy for a kid who likely is a good college player and needs to cash in. Maybe our price & opportunity is right but if not, I am sure we are pursuing a few other avenues. The era of money ball is officially here. Hope the staff is not holding out and not pivoting to other targets. It’s a tough game to play, but think they can’t hold out in my opinion.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Apr 23, 2024 10:58:20 GMT -5
Thanks for reopening a very old wound, MCI. For those not aware, Kenny wanted to attend Georgetown, but Pops didn't pursue him, correct? Reopened? For me that wound and the Grant Hill one NEVER closed. Grant Hill is 10x worse than Kenny Anderson........I wasn't aware of either but just imagining Grant with Zo and Deke makes me sad....we really should've been Duke in the 90s....probably 2 more c'ships.....and I won't even think about if Coach would've gotten both.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 23, 2024 11:04:11 GMT -5
Reopened? For me that wound and the Grant Hill one NEVER closed. Grant Hill is 10x worse than Kenny Anderson........I wasn't aware of either but just imagining Grant with Zo and Deke makes me sad....we really should've been Duke in the 90s....probably 2 more c'ships.....and I won't even think about if Coach would've gotten both. The Fenlon faux pas was so egregious and insulting. Didn't they have any idea who his parents were and where he grew up? Incredibly tone deaf and ham handed.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Apr 23, 2024 11:16:48 GMT -5
Hope the staff is not holding out and not pivoting to other targets. It’s a tough game to play, but think they can’t hold out in my opinion. They are positively recruiting other bigs at the moment, so the odds that we'll end up with nobody like last year (we ultimately landed Cook when options were very thin) are much lower. Still, those other targets are going through the process as well and taking visits to other high majors, so it's not like even if we cut bait on Cliff that we just take the next guy and the roster is wrapped up tomorrow. There are a lot of variables and it's still going to take some time to work itself out, Cliff or not. The absolute worst case scenario would be a 4/5 rotation of Fielder/Cook/Sorber, which is actually an upgrade over last year's team since Sorber is taking the minutes vacated by a guy who was largely ineffective in Massoud. Just that change raises our floor a bit. Plus you hope Fielder makes a little jump, not uncommon for a sophomore big man. Who knows, maybe Cook gets a little better too. It would be a better outlook than last year's team, but, maybe not quite as big a jump and certainly not as splashy as we might have hoped. Most likely though I think we'll add another big, it's just a question of whether it will be an outstanding addition (ie. Cliff) or a good addition (ie. Awaka) or just another decent body to throw out there (ie. Sissoko or other TBD). I also think if the addition is good or great and happens in the next week, there's a chance either of the returning bigs decide to move on, so that's another variable to monitor.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 11:22:38 GMT -5
Reopened? For me that wound and the Grant Hill one NEVER closed. Grant Hill is 10x worse than Kenny Anderson........I wasn't aware of either but just imagining Grant with Zo and Deke makes me sad....we really should've been Duke in the 90s....probably 2 more c'ships.....and I won't even think about if Coach would've gotten both. Regardless both guys should have been Hoyas, playing alongside Zo and Deke. This would have also kept the Big East on top instead of seeing it slide badly in the early 90s with the ACC pulling way ahead. As great as Laettner was, Coach K isn’t getting those first two championships without Grant Hill imo.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 23, 2024 12:00:02 GMT -5
Grant Hill is 10x worse than Kenny Anderson........I wasn't aware of either but just imagining Grant with Zo and Deke makes me sad....we really should've been Duke in the 90s....probably 2 more c'ships.....and I won't even think about if Coach would've gotten both. The Fenlon faux pas was so egregious and insulting. Didn't they have any idea who his parents were and where he grew up? Incredibly tone deaf and ham handed. This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 12:30:14 GMT -5
The absolute worst case scenario would be a 4/5 rotation of Fielder/Cook/Sorber, which is actually an upgrade over last year's team since Sorber is taking the minutes vacated by a guy who was largely ineffective in Massoud. Just that change raises our floor a bit. Plus you hope Fielder makes a little jump, not uncommon for a sophomore big man. Who knows, maybe Cook gets a little better too. It would be a better outlook than last year's team, but, maybe not quite as big a jump and certainly not as splashy as we might have hoped. I was doing some pushback against a weeks-old post on HoyaReport that was dismissive of Fielder and when I did some research of my own I saw that not only did Fielder shoot 54% from 2-point range but that he had an impressive overall 57.1 eFG%. What was the biggest surprise however was that he had both the best ORtg and DRtg of all the guys that got regular minutes on the past season Hoya team. One can argue that those numbers can’t be trusted because of sample size, but the numbers are the numbers. If his numbers were bad people would not give him a pass because of sample size. When he made blunders here and there or didn’t finish strong, we don’t overlook it because of the limited number of opportunities he was in a position to affect the game one way or another. It reminded me that one of my biggest beefs with Cooley's coaching this year was his decision to stop the Ish experiment halfway through Big East play and just give Fielder much more of those minutes to prepare him for the future. And then I noticed yesterday as well that Ish’s ORtg was 92.2 compared to Fielder’s 125.7. That is a ridiculously insane difference. When you throw in that Massoud’s DRtg was 117.5 and Fielder’s was 114.3 AND that Fielder shot better from the three-point line than anyone else, it makes me wonder why Cooley stuck with the more limited and less-skilled Massoud that long. Rebounding perhaps? Someone explain this.
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