Reiss (The Sciences At Georgetown)

[bill]

Does anyone have ANY idea when that god-awful building Reiss is going to be renovated and/or destroyed and replaced? I graduated from GU over 20 years ago (best experience of my life) and do interviews for prospective students.....and nearly all of them are convinced Georgetown doesn't take the sciences seriously because of Reiss. Does Georgetown know what it's inadvertently doing to it's own reputation by having that (nearly) vacant building there?

[DFW HOYA]

Mar 12, 2024 15:40:00 GMT -5 bill said:

Does anyone have ANY idea when that god-awful building Reiss is going to be renovated and/or destroyed and replaced? I graduated from GU over 20 years ago (best experience of my life) and do interviews for prospective students.....and nearly all of them are convinced Georgetown doesn't take the sciences seriously because of Reiss. Does Georgetown know what it's inadvertently doing to it's own reputation by having that (nearly) vacant building there?

No plans for Reiss at this point.

[AltoSaxa]

Bill ... I have interviewed for 17 cycles. I am Col'93Med'97. I discuss with them Regents Hall.

www.sgh.com/project/georgetown-university-regents-hall-science-center/

[bill]

Regents hall is fantastic, but I still there's so much more to do for the sciences. I truly believe that if they made the science facilities more attractive and added more faculty, Georgetown would be paradise on Earth. Don't get me wrong: I loved it there and am so happy I picked it over the Ivies I got into, but with a building like Reiss, it's almost like the administration doesn't care about the sciences. That building is practically empty, you know.

[accelerate]

You couldn't be more right that Georgetown needs to take STEM far, far more seriously. It is absurd that Reiss is in the state it is, and that our CS, Physics, Math, Chem departments are as weak as they are. We are missing out on so many talented students as a result and stifling those students we do accept (very homogenous set of interests on campus).

[DFW HOYA]

Mar 26, 2024 18:31:38 GMT -5 accelerate said:

You couldn't be more right that Georgetown needs to take STEM far, far more seriously. It is absurd that Reiss is in the state it is, and that our CS, Physics, Math, Chem departments are as weak as they are. We are missing out on so many talented students as a result and stifling those students we do accept (very homogenous set of interests on campus).

That Reiss is assuming a Poulton-like existence (for those who remember that building) is likely due to some combination of the following:

1. They still need Reiss 103 and Reiss 112 (?) to hold pre-med classes and can't easily find any available classrooms which hold as many people;
2. The science library is still up there and the plan to move it to Lauinger apparently got scuttled;
3. The proposed south extension of Regents has a design but no funding and they want that first before addressing Reiss;
4. Any building built from 1960-62 likely has some significant hazmat abatement to address; and
5. A teardown may or may not need BZA signoff (a change to the square footage of the campus plan) and tie up an entire side of campus while doing so.

The larger issue is the state of the sciences in undergraduate education. A former dean of the College (pre-DeGioia), once joked that "the College of Arts and Sciences is lacking in only two areas: the arts and the sciences", though I don't think a dean today would be so candid. Historically, Jesuit schools did not invest in the applied sciences, and from a practical standpoint up until the 1960s the faculty of the day (read: priests) did not have experience in it. Outside of Notre Dame, no other Catholic school is in the top 100 in undergraduate engineering, many well below that.

As much as anything, the lack of STEM is the single biggest reason Georgetown is not in the AAU when every other peer is. However, this comes at a cost. If Georgetown wants to spin up a program in health justice, a few faculty and some office space will get it started. You can't spin up the applied sciences without significant investment in facilities and a commitment to research, both of which Georgetown lacks.

Notre Dame is a good example. 1,800 undergraduates and 500 Ph.D. students are enrolled in engineering. Five buildings totaling almost 550,000 square feet provide classroom and research facilities for a faculty of 200. They also have a separate School of Science apart from the liberal arts school. Where GU would get buildings equal to almost three ICC's to house a comparable STEM program is pure conjecture, but the voices at the top of the administrative leadership come from the humanities and thus see science at Georgetown as pre-medical (biology, chemistry, physics) and not computational. Similarly, computer science gets forgotten because it's not familiar to leadership and thus it's still teaching courses in programming languages and algorithms while ML and AI are the next wave. In the end, Georgetown lacks the philanthropy to elevate the sciences and the consensus to make tough decisions (e.g., deemphasizing other programs on the margin) to accommodate it.

[RusskyHoya]

Mar 26, 2024 19:34:20 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

That Reiss is assuming a Poulton-like existence (for those who remember that building)...

I'm not sure I understand this comment. One might argue that Poulton is underutilized in some form or fashion, but it is not functionally obsolete relative to what is being asked of it - which is merely to provide office space (and one small theater stage).

[DFW HOYA]

Mar 26, 2024 23:33:33 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

I'm not sure I understand this comment. One might argue that Poulton is underutilized in some form or fashion, but it is not functionally obsolete relative to what is being asked of it - which is merely to provide office space (and one small theater stage).

In the years before Poulton was converted to offices, it was a largely neglected portion of campus. Outside of M&B, much of the space was auxiliary classrooms, with a collection of wooden chair desks seemingly deposited from other buildings with no particular intent (some rooms had few desks, others were piled with them). The rooms were dirty and unkempt. One year, students rearranged the letters POULTON on the building along 37th St. to read PLUTO and it actually stayed that way for months. It was just an area that the physical plant just didn't maintain, and I trust Reiss will not fall to a similar fate.

[bill]

There's a whole lot I want to say regarding the sciences/image of the sciences at G'town. Rather than burden you all with a disorganized stream of consciousness, I'll organize my thoughts in bullet points.

1. The research facilities and research activity at G'town is not on par with those at HYP (Harvard, Yale, Princeton). They never will be, and that applies to several departments that are not in the sciences (psychology, English, economics, philosophy, even government). If you look at how the PhD programs at G'town compare to those at the elite Ivy, you'll see that many programs even in the social sciences are far behind. And I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I honestly think it's good.....Georgetown's primary focus is on undergraduate education, and that's how (I believe) it should stay.

2. The experience I had as a pre-med (and science major) at Georgetown was phenomenal. I ultimately decided not to go to medical school and chose to get a PhD instead. I landed a sweet job at a very elite college after getting my PhD and was certain that the students there would at least be as good as those on the hill top. I was mistaken. The courses were not as rigorous and the students were lazier. I was shocked.

3. The physics, chemistry, math and computer science departments are far better now than they were when I was at G'town. The undergraduate research opportunities there far exceed some of the opportunities undergraduates would have at a place like HYP, and those students who do major in the sciences and choose to go to grad school appear to get accepted to some of the top programs. The problem is that prospective students don't see the administration taking the sciences seriously because (with the exception of Regents Hall) the sciences are banned to the nether regions of campus (Reiss and Saint Mary's). I live in the area now and with my experience as a professor have tried to get in touch with the admins about my thoughts, but I've heard crickets.

4. I think there's a good solution. It's expensive, but it's consistent with the current campus plan: add a building south of Regents. Let this contain more faculty offices for the sciences and put in a ton of lecture halls there. These lecture halls should be similar (or larger) in size to Reiss 103 and 112. Then knock down Reiss and build the two buildings like they plan to do. See the link to the campus plan below. Make those CS and Math. Then make the northern part of campus more residential like the southern part of campus, and you've got a wonderful place! Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Anybody wanna' knock on DeGioia's door with me and discuss this brilliant idea?

[bill]

Here's the campus plan

dc.curbed.com/2016/9/1/12755624/georgetown-university-campus-plan

[RusskyHoya]

Mar 27, 2024 11:03:30 GMT -5 bill said:

The problem is that prospective students don't see the administration taking the sciences seriously because (with the exception of Regents Hall) the sciences are banned to the nether regions of campus (Reiss and Saint Mary's).

I mean, Reiss's location can hardly be called the nether regions - it's about as central as it gets! It's decrepit state is another matter.

With St. Mary's, I expect it will psychologically feel less like 'the outskirts' once it has a nice new lawn in front of it. Not as big as Healy/Copley lawns, but it's a not-inconsiderable amount of new green space.

Mar 27, 2024 11:03:30 GMT -5 bill said:

4. I think there's a good solution. It's expensive, but it's consistent with the current campus plan: add a building south of Regents. Let this contain more faculty offices for the sciences and put in a ton of lecture halls there. These lecture halls should be similar (or larger) in size to Reiss 103 and 112. Then knock down Reiss and build the two buildings like they plan to do. See the link to the campus plan below. Make those CS and Math. Then make the northern part of campus more residential like the southern part of campus, and you've got a wonderful place! Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Anybody wanna' knock on DeGioia's door with me and discuss this brilliant idea?

As DFW alluded to, the building south of Regents is indeed in the works, pending funding: georgetownvoice.com/2022/10/06/georgetown-makes-progress-on-its-twenty-year-plan-with-anticipated-construction-of-interdisciplinary-building/

It will be interdisciplinary/flex space by design, rather than science-specific, but it should provide the necessary capacity to fully move out of Reiss and then do...whatever with it.

NB that 'knocking down' a building - vice renovating it - has a significant additional environmental cost. Henle was one thing - we really need more beds, it was mostly non-ADA compliant, and it was a very poor use of space in many ways compared to modern residential design. Unless Reiss is just completely unusable for some structural reason, it's much more likely that it will be gutted and repurposed, retaining the superstructure.

I interpret the periodic asbestos remediation work to be in preparation for just such a renovation (https://www.georgetown.edu/news/reiss-science-building-4th-floor-construction-and-asbestos-abatement/)

At one point, there was a concept put forward that the renovation (or, if unavoidable, replacement) of Reiss would entail building a skybridge between it and Regents. That seems like the sort of "nice to have" that would get cut for being egregiously expensive, but I think that's the concept that is reflected in the Campus Plan.

[reformation]

If were looking at upgrading STEM at Gtwn I think the focus on the buildings, while not unimportant misses the point.

It's interesting discussion on BBALL board because for less than the 6mm we pay Cooley we could double the size of the math and CS depts (interesting re tradeoffs)

Gtwn completely missed the whole data science/computational move in both STEM and Social sciences. Thats a management fail more than an endowment issue. One doesn't need a whole lot of new physical infrastructure to do it. Given Gtwn's location its actually not that hard to get faculty to come here given the opportunity in these fields outside of the campus from being in DC. The other aspect of increasing the size of the math/data science effort is that it can be integrated into the other programs in the social sciences especially (Govt, Sociology, Linguistics, Econ etc.). We could easily hire faculty from abroad UK etc who are not that expensive to hire but are pretty elite in their fields. Also in these fields Gtwn has greatly expanded its master's programs (primarily a money-making move) without really thinking re impact on undergrad resources--I would take a closer look at this dynamic

If I had to do a quick STEM fix for Gtwn I guess I would do the following:
1)Double (approx) math & CS (Not that hard to do) +incorporate Data Science & Computational Tracks in Biology/Chem/Physics/Govt/Sociology/Econ/Linguistics (Easy to Do)
2)Introduce better Intro Honors courses/tracks in Math/Physics/Comp Sci etc--kids coming in have much better prep and Gtwn has not adjusted to that (Easy to Do)
3)Add another 3-2 Engr program maybe CalTech/Dartmouth/Johns Hopkins in addition to Columbia as options (Easy to do)
4)For Study Abroad have a closer collaboration with a few elite STEM places overseas--some of the UK Uni's (UCL/Imperial/Edinburgh) ETH Zurich (Easy To Do)
5)For the consortium make sure that Johns Hopkins is included as an option (Easy to Do--would be material in computational Bio/data science/comp sci) (Probably easy)
6)Maybe set up a 1-year undergrad exchange with a Stem focused undergrad place like Carnegie Mellon Rice or Stanford (Probably Easy)

Realistically this could all be done in 2 years or less at a minimal cost and would change the undergrad STEM trajectory/experience and ability to attract Elite Stem students at Gtwn

[RusskyHoya]

Mar 28, 2024 10:04:45 GMT -5 reformation said:

Gtwn completely missed the whole data science/computational move in both STEM and Social sciences. Thats a management fail more than an endowment issue. One doesn't need a whole lot of new physical infrastructure to do it. Given Gtwn's location its actually not that hard to get faculty to come here given the opportunity in these fields outside of the campus from being in DC. The other aspect of increasing the size of the math/data science effort is that it can be integrated into the other programs in the social sciences especially (Govt, Sociology, Linguistics, Econ etc.). We could easily hire faculty from abroad UK etc who are not that expensive to hire but are pretty elite in their fields. Also in these fields Gtwn has greatly expanded its master's programs (primarily a money-making move) without really thinking re impact on undergrad resources--I would take a closer look at this dynamic

I'm going to push back here. The push to quantify everything out of a mistaken belief (more of an instinct, really) that numbers make things more "scientific" has been an absolute disaster for the social sciences. The Replication Crisis can be directly tied back to this wrong turn, and even where it hasn't made everyone question the validity of the entire field, it has incurred massive opportunity costs, as we see in political science (Georgetown being basically the lone holdout to still call it Government and resist full William Riker-ization).

In any event... and I feel like we've had this argument before... I would not say Georgetown has "completely missed" it at all. Beyond the branded things like the Massive Data Institute (mdi.georgetown.edu/) and Georgetown's cloud supercomputing resources (hpc.georgetown.edu/), Georgetown professors and students regularly use the infrastructure of entities like NIST (softmatter.georgetown.edu/nist-professional-research-experience-program-prep/) to do big data/intensive-computation modeling, research, etc.

[accelerate]

To the above, mathematics are essential in linguistics and economics. I agree with many that the immediate move here is build new South of Regents building responsibly, replace/renovate Reiss, and double CS and math faculty. Specifically those two fields, they have the best trickle down effects to broadly strengthen STEM at georgetown + attract quantitative/entrepreneurial types. Though I would argue that Columbia makes do with an ENG department on smaller space, I think the point is moot. Georgetown is in no position to, and absolutely should not at this time, invest in any sort of in-house engineering program. What we need is tangible improvement in the roots of STEM (being math and CS). That is the first step in cultivating a sense of the sciences at Georgetown.

[reformation]

Issue is what to do going fwd. The Math/CS build is easy to fix. Can't see how anyone could think that Gtwn benefitted in any way from not embracing the quant approach to the social sciences. The new buildings will take years to get done. Stuff I recommended above could be done in 1 yr.

[reformation]

As a follow on to the above suggestions adding quant tracks to some of the social science and science majors at Gtwn would also enhance the marketability of graduates and attractiveness to applicants. Seems somewhat obvious TBH.

[RusskyHoya]

Mar 28, 2024 15:00:21 GMT -5 reformation said:

Can't see how anyone could think that Gtwn benefitted in any way from not embracing the quant approach to the social sciences.

Well, for one thing, our people aren't constantly ending up on Retraction Watch and Data Colada and the like because their data is all bull and the pressure to publish-or-perish when everything has to be quant naturally leads to sloppy or outright fabricated data (and even if it wasn't, it would be meaningless, because statistical significance and data diversity are very subjective things when talking about social science).

We now have two generations of psychology research based on research subjects who are 90% White college undergrads. The whole field is practically in shambles. That is not a positive thing.

[RusskyHoya]

Speaking of the building south of Regents...

https://www.instagram.com/p/C4ymc-SPbJX

[accelerate]

While I think that building should largely be devoted to the sciences, I also strongly believe it should have interdisciplinary space. Specifically, interdisciplinary space for interaction between stem and MSB students (and maybe some SFS). Would do wonders for the entrepreneurial climate on campus -- and those are the individuals who become big donors. Some sort of CS & Entrepreneurship center would be great.

[reformation]

This is a pretty good model for social science/data science approach--it's foolish for Gtwn not to stuff like this:

impact.stanford.edu/programs/undergraduate-major-data-science-social-systems