the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 11:38:55 GMT -5
Which is a good thing. ;D ::ducks for cover as the Joey Brown Brigade prepares their assualt:: (mega-phone voice): Alright come out with you hands up. We are not going to hurt you buddy. Nobody wants any problems. Your slight of Joey Brown is not right, but nobody should get hurt over it. Don't do it to yourself buddy. Just come out nice and slow, so we all can go home.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Aug 8, 2005 11:44:23 GMT -5
Which is a good thing. ;D ::ducks for cover as the Joey Brown Brigade prepares their assualt:: I don't know if this is a reference to something other than basketball, but I'll just say this: for hustle and heart, Joey was incredible. What he lacked in talent was more than made up for by his effort on the court. If I were a coach I'd find a place for a player like that on my team. Joey made a hell of a contribution. No, he wasn't anywhere near a star, but he fulfilled his role quite well. #2 on the Hoya career assists list....
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 11:53:19 GMT -5
Which is a good thing. ;D ::ducks for cover as the Joey Brown Brigade prepares their assualt:: I don't know if this is a reference to something other than basketball, but I'll just say this: for hustle and heart, Joey was incredible. What he lacked in talent was more than made up for by his effort on the court. If I were a coach I'd find a place for a player like that on my team. Joey made a hell of a contribution. No, he wasn't anywhere near a star, but he fulfilled his role quite well. #2 on the Hoya career assists list.... Correct. I remember the late great Al McGuire was commentating a G'town game at BC, I believe. Joey was hustling all over the place, playing his brains out. McGuire said during the broadcast: "If I was still coaching, I want Joey Brown on my team. You are unbelievable son."
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Post by JohnnyTwoTimes on Aug 8, 2005 12:31:01 GMT -5
The Five Greatest Hoyas of All Time? Think about it: 1) Dylon; 2) Dylon; 3) Dylon; 4) Dylon and 5) Dylon.
But my five favorites?
1) Alonzo; 2) Patrick; 3) Jerome; 4) Big Mike; 5) Victor.
(followed by 6) Lonnie Harrell; 7) Jaren Jackson; 8) Mark Tillmon; 9) Perry McDonald; 10) David Wingate).
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2005 12:39:14 GMT -5
I will stand by my opinion that Joey and Boubacar are two of the most over praised former players on this board. I respect their heart, their class, their work ethic. But they were two guys who should have never started for a major program as many years as they did. The blame for that goes to JT of course and his lack of recruiting. I just don't understand why you guys keep up the ruse.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Aug 8, 2005 12:46:25 GMT -5
5c. Hunter (Oh, what could have been!) 5b. Braswell 5a. John Jacques 4. Michael Jackson 3. Ewing 2. Sweetney 1. AI
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 12:50:21 GMT -5
I will stand by my opinion that Joey and Boubacar are two of the most over praised former players on this board. I respect their heart, their class, their work ethic. But they were two guys who should have never started for a major program as many years as they did. The blame for that goes to JT of course and his lack of recruiting. I just don't understand why you guys keep up the ruse. Why do you think they were "over praised"? I will agree with the lack of recruiting for Joey's last 2 teams, save for George Butler, Duane Spencer, and Othella. But Boubacars first 3 teams had some pretty good players on the squad. Was Boubacar the equivalent of Reggie Williams, heck no! But Boub , no pun intended ;D, played hard, was physical, and a trash talker. He was a solid role player. He gave it all he had and I think that is why people liked him so. Joey was a consummate leader and great PG for the Hoyas. Was he the most athletically gifted? Heck no! Was he Sleepy Floyd? Heck no! But he was one of the better PG's to come out of G'town. He worked his butt off and gave it all he had, and people can appreciate that. To say they should have never started for as many years as they should have is a bit harsh.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 8, 2005 13:25:58 GMT -5
Not to mention that Boubacar was arguably the best non-center defensive player to ever put on the blue and gray. That's why Big John had him out there, and he did not disappoint in that respect. And does anyone remember the end of '98? Perhaps John should have instructed Boubacar to be more aggresive on O earlier in his career.
In an age when good offensive players are glorified to an absurd extent, we should not undermine the efforts of one of our own who was great on defense. If you consider defense 50% of the game (and I do), Aw would have been All Big East. He routinely shut down or at least seriously slowed the other team's best offensive player.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Aug 8, 2005 13:36:58 GMT -5
I will stand by my opinion that Joey and Boubacar are two of the most over praised former players on this board. I respect their heart, their class, their work ethic. But they were two guys who should have never started for a major program as many years as they did. The blame for that goes to JT of course and his lack of recruiting. I just don't understand why you guys keep up the ruse. I can respect your opinion, MCI. I do, however, quibble with your characterization of Joey being overpraised. Boubacar, too. But that's a topic for another thread. I thought I was simply responding to a request for my five favorites and added why I liked them. Sorry if you took my expression of appreciation for hyperbole.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 8, 2005 13:53:30 GMT -5
I'm very new as a Hoya fan:
Aside from Allen...
1) Vic Page (people forget that he was arguably as exciting, if not as good, as Allen) 2) Mike Sweetney (it was crap and it was unfair what he put up with, and he still scored) 3) Boubacar Aw (maybe overrated, maybe too fun of a name, but I just liked him) 4) Lee Scruggs (how can anyone be that skinny? and frustrating) 5) Nat Burton (just one shot) 6) Demetrius Hunter (basically caused a massive chain of events with one dunk)
Jerome Williams would've made the list if I could get over losing the '96 BE Finals. But I can't. One of my favorite Hoyas except...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2005 13:58:07 GMT -5
Players who are constantly mentioned as being part of the top ten favorite players ever to play for GU. Ugh. There has to be better choices.
His first two teams did at least.
He was a 6-6, 6-7 guy who would blow a layup on a fastbreak when the closest defender was five feet away. He was a limited player who had a hard time finishing under the paint despite his size and strength. His outside shot was one of the ugliest things you'd ever see. His best all around season was his freshmen year. His soph season wasn't as good but he was more of a perfect fit because he was in a starting lineup in which the other four guys I believe averaged double figures----so all he had to provide was tough defense which he did an exceptional job at I'll admit. His junior season was mostly lousy. His senior season ws turning out to be that as well until Jahidi white went down and Kenny Brunner left the team. After that, to Aw's credit, he stepped up. But I'm a person who likes to see at least steady progression in players from season to season. I don't mean to pick on the guy. He wasn't Kevin Millen bad or Rhese Gibson awful or Trez Kilpatrick terrible for goodness sakes. I just don't understand why so many people are so in love with Boubacar. Hey, I have love for RBB but I would never expect him to make many favorite's lists. But Aw does and I still don't get it. Have the Hoyas had that few worthy players to choose from these past 12 seasons?
We have a different definition for "great" I suppose.
If so it explains why the Hoya program disappeared as a regular national power when the early 90s came about. In fact one could say that once Mark Tillmon and Dwayne Bryant graduated and were replaced by Joey Brown, Robert Churchwell, Charles Harrison and Lamont Morgan, the shift to being an average program had officially began. I respect Brown's heart and toughness but I respect that of my Aunt Mary too. I wouldn't want her playing for Gtown though. Brown's peak came his sophomore season. After that he failed to live up to the expectations one would have of a guy who had been in the starting lineup since his first day in a Hoya uniform. As I already pointed out I blame JT for this more than Joey. JT said he didn't need some "hamburger All American" and therefore did his best to ignore Kenny anderson. He also chased out David Edwards who was too flashy for him and would have been a soph with scoring ability when Joey came along. What you get in their place is Joey Brown. I can't imagine any other major program who was SERIOUS about winning putting the limited Brown in the starting lineup as a freshman. Maybe as a senior or even a junior. But as a frosh? A guy who couldn't make some people's Top 200? Get real. That's like throwing Drew Hall into the fire as a freshmen. But even more amazing I can't think of any serious major program that would KEEP Brown in the starting lineup for four years despite the diminshing returns. Of course JT also decided to screw up the Grant Hill recruitment and brought in Churchwell instead. Churchwell would have been a great off the bench player for a team that wanted to win it all. But for Gtown he too became a four year starter without ever doing much on the court to show he was worthy of that. Joey and Churchwell gave Othella virtually nothing when they were juniors and seniors. Instead of getting better and taking on more of the load they either regressed or stood still as players. Once again though I put that on JT for putting those guys in that situation and for not caring about developing them offensively.
What would have been the perfect team for Brown? If he was on a team in which the Hoyas had four big time scorers in the starting lineup and all Joey had to do was run the team he would have been a great fit. However that was never the case. The Hoyas lacked scorers, especially on the perimeter, and as a result defenses sagged in on Mutombo, Mourning and Harringtom. They would leave Brown open by about 15 feet and dared him to shoot. And yet despite all of those open looks Brown missed 75% of the time. I'm sorry but THAT alone should disqualify you as being a high D1 point guard. He wasn't a threat and lets be truthful here his entry passes into the paint weren't great either. Nor was he any good at being able to drive & draw defenders away from the big guys allowing him to pass the ball into them. Plus he was too short to defend and good BE guards. And yet despite all of this you refer to him as "great"? Wow. What an indictment of those seasons.
No, its not harsh. There were players in the MEAC who would have worked just as hard too and been just as ineffective. They just weren't lucky enough to get a free ride by JT.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 8, 2005 14:04:40 GMT -5
Somehow MCI forgot that "favorite" has nothing to do with "best".
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 14:11:54 GMT -5
Somehow MCI forgot that "favorite" has nothing to do with "best". LOL! ;D
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2005 14:12:02 GMT -5
Somehow MCI forgot that "favorite" has nothing to do with "best". No, I didn't. I almost wrote down "best" and had to change it back to "favorite" so I was well aware of what the criteria was. I just have a hard time understanding why so many people choose these same below average players as being amongst their favorites. If its the basketball equivalent of a "guilty pleasure" then I guess I can understand it better.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 14:19:59 GMT -5
Somehow MCI forgot that "favorite" has nothing to do with "best". No, I didn't. I almost wrote down "best" and had to change it back to "favorite" so I was well aware of what the criteria was. I just have a hard time understanding why so many people choose these same below average players as being amongst their favorites. If its the basketball equivalent of a "guilty pleasure" then I guess I can understand it better. I hear you about your Joey Brown argument. I just don't think he was a throw away player. You are right, Joey was not the type of PG to carry in terms of scoring. He didn't have to do that his first 2 years, and his final year Butler picked up the slack. His 3rd year is what hurt the team. Not him, but there were no stars on that squad. Othella wasn't the type of player to make your team instantly NCAA tournament bound. That is not a knock on O, just like it is not a knock on Joey.They both needed better talent around them. Just like a good QB needs somebody to throw to. Lamont Morgans, Kevin Millens,and Lonnie Harrells of the world weren't going to do it. The recruiting did hurt those years. After Tillmon and Bryant's class graduated, I was shocked to see the level of talent drop when GU still had Mourning AND Mutumbo on the same team. It continued the following year with Irvin Church, John Jacques, Kevin Millen, Lonnie Harrell. Not exactly "hamburger" players, but more like "fish stick" players. ;D
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jahidihoya
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Post by jahidihoya on Aug 8, 2005 14:26:56 GMT -5
1) JAHIDI WHITE 2) Allen Iverson 3) Lee Scruggs 4) Jerome Williams 5) Don Reid
Honorable Mention: George Butler
Those five guys together would never win a game, but I would love to watch them.
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Post by NoCleverName on Aug 8, 2005 14:47:13 GMT -5
Not to mention that Boubacar was arguably the best non-center defensive player to ever put on the blue and gray. Whoa. Anyone care to share any Gene Smith stories?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 8, 2005 14:49:11 GMT -5
Not to mention that Boubacar was arguably the best non-center defensive player to ever put on the blue and gray. Whoa. Anyone care to share any Gene Smith stories? How about the Final Four Kentucky game, 2nd half especially, before he tore up his ankle. That says it all for me.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2005 14:55:11 GMT -5
No, I didn't. I almost wrote down "best" and had to change it back to "favorite" so I was well aware of what the criteria was. I just have a hard time understanding why so many people choose these same below average players as being amongst their favorites. If its the basketball equivalent of a "guilty pleasure" then I guess I can understand it better. I hear you about your Joey Brown argument. I just don't think he was a throw away player. You are right, Joey was not the type of PG to carry in terms of scoring. He didn't have to do that his first 2 years, and his final year Butler picked up the slack. His 3rd year is what hurt the team. Not him, but there were no stars on that squad. Othella wasn't the type of player to make your team instantly NCAA tournament bound. That is not a knock on O, just like it is not a knock on Joey.They both needed better talent around them. Just like a good QB needs somebody to throw to. Lamont Morgans, Kevin Millens,and Lonnie Harrells of the world weren't going to do it. The recruiting did hurt those years. After Tillmon and Bryant's class graduated, I was shocked to see the level of talent drop when GU still had Mourning AND Mutumbo on the same team. It continued the following year with Irvin Church, John Jacques, Kevin Millen, Lonnie Harrell. Not exactly "hamburger" players, but more like "fish stick" players. ;D We're in perfect agreement except for one thing: Othella. While O wasn't at the level of the big men before him, he still managed to put 16 points and about 8 rebounds per game as a frosh. And this was with five defenders setting up camp around him as the rest of the Hoyas did their best to either make a terrible pass into him or shoot up a clunker from the perimeter. I'm sorry but I can't put O and Joey in the same boat. But we do agree that JT made a miscalculation. I still recalled the Wilbon column after JT had successfully recruited O. JT was crowing about he showed al the doubters that he could still get the job done in terms of recruiting. But did he not realize that Othella wasn't the listed 6'10 and that he didn't have an explosive game? Did he not realize that O's touch was so good that he would better be suited at the PF spot and that getting a very good center to go along with him would be the way to go? Maybe JT was so confident he could get Gtown-lean Rasheed Wallace in the next class that he decided to take it easy and wait on that. Of course JT never got Wallace and had no backup plan for such a circumstance. As a result O was forced to play he center for most of his years at Gtown and the game he had coming in was almost completely lost. And of course if one is gonna recruit McDAA big men like O and Duane Spencer it would make sense to upgrade the guards too, right? But O and DS came to Gtown with McCoud (sp?) who ended ended up being shipped to the French Foreign Legion when AI fell into JT's lap. Oh, the horror which was JT's planning and putting a team together during the 90s.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 8, 2005 14:58:00 GMT -5
Someone has to tell me the story of Eric Micoud and the French Foreign Legion. All this time I thought it was a joke, but 'm beginning to feel like it isn't. At least not literally a joke.
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