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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 19, 2021 18:41:32 GMT -5
So Kel was elite also by definition. Starks followed that up by shooting 32% the next season. What do you think was the reason was for the dip? I’m guess no Otto, so Makel became the focal point of the defense Yes. A few things: - No Otto. - Higher usage. - More the focal point of the defenses. - The 2014 team wasn't nearly as good as the 2013 team, so he probably didn't get as many good looks (which is related/similar to the "No Otto" point). Despite the reduced three point shooting, Starks was actually MORE efficient in 2014 than 2013. This was mostly because he drew a LOT more free throws (162 to 52 in 2013).
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 19, 2021 18:41:33 GMT -5
In 2013, Otto Porter shot 42.2% from three (on 102 attempts). Clearly he was a sharpshooter, and he was one of the best players in all of D-1. As an aside, Starks shot 41.7% that year on 151 attempts, which is a lot, especially given the slower pace we played that season. So players/people do something one time and that’s enough to label them forever? Hmm so before sophomore year, Otto was “clearly” not a sharpshooter then? And a couple months later he is? What was it, 5 games into the season you decided he was a sharp shooter or 20? Just trying to see how long we take a wait and see approach with Rice.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 19, 2021 18:42:28 GMT -5
Well I guess he’s fated to shoot 32.4% on any floor any time then and has been doing so ever since he touched a basketball. Boom, you solved it! Case closed. This is a straw man. Nobody is saying that past results are a definitive indication of what will happen in the future. They are just a guide. In fact, I think there's actually a good chance Rice improves on his past numbers. It’s not a straw man. I made a very valid statement you perceive as ridiculous. What do you want me to say? Explain the whole nature of the truth to you? We’re not speaking the same language it doesn’t seem. The conversation was about determining his actual ability and skill level, not regurgitating past results as evidence to come up with the same repeatable theory. You do you man, like I said you you already solved this one. Let’s leave it at that.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 19, 2021 18:49:05 GMT -5
In 2013, Otto Porter shot 42.2% from three (on 102 attempts). Clearly he was a sharpshooter, and he was one of the best players in all of D-1. As an aside, Starks shot 41.7% that year on 151 attempts, which is a lot, especially given the slower pace we played that season. So players/people do something one time and that’s enough to label them forever? Hmm so before sophomore year, Otto was “clearly” not a sharpshooter then? And a couple months later he is? What was it, 5 games into the season you decided he was a sharp shooter or 20? Just trying to see how long we take a wait and see approach with Rice. Otto improved substantially from freshman to sophomore year. He was a downright horrible three point shooter as a freshman, and improved substantially as a sophomore. I don't care about the "sharpshooter" terminology, which someone else introduced. But yeah, in his sophomore year, Otto was a really excellent shooter. Obviously, people develop and improve. And I expect Rice may do the same. But, a 5th year player, who is 23 years old and will be 24 by the time 2022 rolls around, is much less likely to have a jump like Otto. That said, he can definitely get better, and it wouldn't surprise me.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 19, 2021 18:49:51 GMT -5
We can agree on that. I think we also can agree that we both want Rice to do great and glad to have him on board.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 19, 2021 18:51:34 GMT -5
What about for players who had over 200 shot attempts? There were only 22 players in D-1 with over 200 attempts. Based on percentage, Rice was 17th of 22. As an aside, Spencer Littleson of Toledo shot 218 threes and shot 47.2%. I know it's Toledo, but that's pretty impressive.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Apr 19, 2021 18:56:45 GMT -5
What about for players who had over 200 shot attempts? There were only 22 players in D-1 with over 200 attempts. Based on percentage, Rice was 17th of 22. As an aside, Spencer Littleson of Toledo shot 218 threes and shot 47.2%. I know it's Toledo, but that's pretty impressive. He shot a lot of contested, quick shot clock 3s because that's part of the Citadel system. I would be very confident that his % would be quite a bit higher shooting half the threes and most of them being on open kickouts.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 19, 2021 19:15:29 GMT -5
So players/people do something one time and that’s enough to label them forever? Hmm so before sophomore year, Otto was “clearly” not a sharpshooter then? And a couple months later he is? What was it, 5 games into the season you decided he was a sharp shooter or 20? Just trying to see how long we take a wait and see approach with Rice. Otto improved substantially from freshman to sophomore year. He was a downright horrible three point shooter as a freshman, and improved substantially as a sophomore. I don't care about the "sharpshooter" terminology, which someone else introduced. But yeah, in his sophomore year, Otto was a really excellent shooter. Obviously, people develop and improve. And I expect Rice may do the same. But, a 5th year player, who is 23 years old and will be 24 by the time 2022 rolls around, is much less likely to have a jump like Otto. That said, he can definitely get better, and it wouldn't surprise me. This I can agree with. Point of clarification: don’t invoke words or labels like sharpshooter if that’s not what you believe and you don’t want people to get confused. But understood about the confusion.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 19, 2021 19:18:31 GMT -5
There were only 22 players in D-1 with over 200 attempts. Based on percentage, Rice was 17th of 22. As an aside, Spencer Littleson of Toledo shot 218 threes and shot 47.2%. I know it's Toledo, but that's pretty impressive. He shot a lot of contested, quick shot clock 3s because that's part of the Citadel system. I would be very confident that his % would be quite a bit higher shooting half the threes and most of them being on open kickouts. Exactly. A horrible shot for most people is a good shot for him. His percentage partially reflects his willingness to take tough shots. Seems like that is what the Citadel offense was designed to do. Get up shots at the expense of their quality. He’ll no longer be a primary option so that should change. On that note I guess it’s a matter of opinion, but as far as pure shooting ability goes he’s up there with Don and TJ in a class of their own. They are all elite, skill-wise. Regardless, Rice is the biggest three point threat we’ve had in a while. You can’t not guard him tight. He has one of the quickest releases in the country and he’s 6’7” at that. You’ll need to commit some form Of length to him.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2021 19:32:40 GMT -5
No, I'm saying his career stats aren't the stats of what I would consider a sharpshooter or 3pt specialist... Okay, fair enough. What does is stats have to show you for you to label him a 3pt specialist? At least 37% on a high number of attempts, think Kris Jenkins...
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2021 19:38:56 GMT -5
Freeman was a very good shooter. Wallace was a sharpshooter What was Otto? Definitely had a great soph season but it's hard for me to say sharpshooter in the low attempts he had in college so I'd go with very good...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 19:58:06 GMT -5
Definitely had a great soph season but it's hard for me to say sharpshooter in the low attempts he had in college so I'd go with very good... Where does the type of 3 point shots you’re taking fit into this equation? You mentioned Kris Jenkins above. He’s a very good shooter no doubt, but virtually all of his attempts are off catch and shoot. Some other players don’t have that luxury and as a result may not shoot the same percentage overall but are just as good in those situations.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 19, 2021 20:43:23 GMT -5
Definitely had a great soph season but it's hard for me to say sharpshooter in the low attempts he had in college so I'd go with very good... Where does the type of 3 point shots you’re taking fit into this equation? You mentioned Kris Jenkins above. He’s a very good shooter no doubt, but virtually all of his attempts are off catch and shoot. Some other players don’t have that luxury and as a result may not shoot the same percentage overall but are just as good in those situations. I mentioned Jenkins because I was asked @ what percentage would I consider a player a "3pt specialist". I agree that there are players who will have their % is dragged down by the types of shots they're getting but I think you'd admit that taking a lot of 3's off the bounce is a recipe for disaster. Hard for me to see a coach pushing for that regardless of how quickly they want the shots to go up... I'm not at all saying that he's not gonna be a useful player for Gtown, I'm just saying his stats aren't what I would label as a sharpshooter or specialist as others have... Your view that he'll be a spacer in the offense I agree with completely...
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 19, 2021 20:56:36 GMT -5
Look, is he Steph Curry? No. But he’s good enough that a D1 team built its entire offense around him. At GU, he will be one of a number of options, so as Rock correctly pointed out, both the quality of his shots and his shooting pct should go up while his usage will undoubtedly go down. Personally, I think he’s a great addition - very experienced shooter who has scored at an all-conference level in college. Steph Curry shot under 40% his final year at Davidson, lower than Bile and Carey this year. Taking almost 12 3s per game. Stats can be deceptive. Let’s hope improving the quality of his usage helps the results on his shots. Chvotkin says, “Harris, drops it in to BabyDeke on the blocks, he spins, and the double team comes! Ryan passes it out to Rice for the three ball - ONIONS!”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 22:04:36 GMT -5
Yet facts are not the same thing as truth. C’mon, man ... don’t you know how many chips Daryl Morey and Sam Presti have won?!?!
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Apr 19, 2021 22:40:22 GMT -5
Look, is he Steph Curry? No. But he’s good enough that a D1 team built its entire offense around him. At GU, he will be one of a number of options, so as Rock correctly pointed out, both the quality of his shots and his shooting pct should go up while his usage will undoubtedly go down. Personally, I think he’s a great addition - very experienced shooter who has scored at an all-conference level in college. Steph Curry shot under 40% his final year at Davidson, lower than Bile and Carey this year. Taking almost 12 3s per game. Stats can be deceptive. Let’s hope the improving the quality of his usage helps the quality of his shots. Chvotkin says, “Harris, drops it in to BabyDeke on the blocks, he spins, and the double team comes! Ryan passes it out to Rice for the three ball - ONIONS!” Seaweed, I have a different take, if you'll indulge me, on your Rich scenario. Above all, Rich would NEVER use ONIONS on the radio; it's a Raf-ologism. Here's how I envision it. "Harris, drops it in to BabyDeke on the blocks, he spins, looks for the hooker in the lane, not there! Ryan passes it out to Rice for the three ball - OH MY!”
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 20, 2021 7:02:01 GMT -5
Steph Curry shot under 40% his final year at Davidson, lower than Bile and Carey this year. Taking almost 12 3s per game. Stats can be deceptive. Let’s hope the improving the quality of his usage helps the quality of his shots. Chvotkin says, “Harris, drops it in to BabyDeke on the blocks, he spins, and the double team comes! Ryan passes it out to Rice for the three ball - ONIONS!” Seaweed, I have a different take, if you'll indulge me, on your Rich scenario. Above all, Rich would NEVER use ONIONS on the radio; it's a Raf-ologism. Here's how I envision it. "Harris, drops it in to BabyDeke on the blocks, he spins, looks for the hooker in the lane, not there! Ryan passes it out to Rice for the three ball - OH MY!” Much better and yes, I did get my Raf-ism mixed into my Chvotkin stew
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Apr 20, 2021 10:11:25 GMT -5
I've always liked the Steve Buckhantz, Dagger!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 12:43:41 GMT -5
Where does the type of 3 point shots you’re taking fit into this equation? You mentioned Kris Jenkins above. He’s a very good shooter no doubt, but virtually all of his attempts are off catch and shoot. Some other players don’t have that luxury and as a result may not shoot the same percentage overall but are just as good in those situations. I mentioned Jenkins because I was asked @ what percentage would I consider a player a "3pt specialist". I agree that there are players who will have their % is dragged down by the types of shots they're getting but I think you'd admit that taking a lot of 3's off the bounce is a recipe for disaster. Hard for me to see a coach pushing for that regardless of how quickly they want the shots to go up... I'm not at all saying that he's not gonna be a useful player for Gtown, I'm just saying his stats aren't what I would label as a sharpshooter or specialist as others have... Your view that he'll be a spacer in the offense I agree with completely... Exactly, the types of shots matter. Using context free stats to try and say what a player is or is not may paint a false picture. It doesn't tell me what he shot in catch and shoot, off the dribble, in corner threes, contested, non contested etc. There's not a college site that maps 3 point attempts, but a college coach might have that info, or pay someone to track it. The only thing that matters to me as a coach is what he shot in the situations I plan on using him in and raw stats don't tell you that.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 20, 2021 14:02:59 GMT -5
Exactly, the types of shots matter. Using context free stats to try and say what a player is or is not may paint a false picture. It doesn't tell me what he shot in catch and shoot, off the dribble, in corner threes, contested, non contested etc. There's not a college site that maps 3 point attempts, but a college coach might have that info, or pay someone to track it. The only thing that matters to me as a coach is what he shot in the situations I plan on using him in and raw stats don't tell you that. shotquality.com/There is a relatively new website, Shot Quality, which some colleges use, that tracks this information. I am not going to drop the money necessary to get their content, but it's intriguing. Georgetown really should subscribe to something like this if they don't already.
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