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Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 20, 2020 13:02:39 GMT -5
I could not watch this game live, hence the late commentary. That said, I don't see how anybody could blame the offense (with one caveat, I'll state in a moment). We scored 1.21 points per possession on offense. That's really good. The difference is that our defensive was putrid in every way, giving up 1.27 points per possession. Yes, Howard torched us. And yes, he's a great player. But, everybody else on their team killed us too. Here are their guys and in-game O efficiency ratings: Amin: 135 McEwen: 110 Howard: 121 Bailey: 161 John: 142 Johnson: 142 So they had 6 guys that absolutely destroyed us on offense. If this was the type of game where Howard crushed us, but we otherwise did okay, then fine. But that's absolutely not what happened here. The defense, as a whole, was atrocious. I don't have many complaints on offense, other than this game shows why we cannot continually trade 2's for 3's. They had 64 shot attempts to our 59. So while they took more shots, that's not a big differential. But, we took 18 threes, they took 27. It's a problem. The other related problem is our guys taking too many long twos, game after game, and it never stops. In a 4 point game, 14-20 FT vs. 11-16 FT is a big difference too. Expectation is that if you're shooting more 2's, you should also be getting to the line more. It wasn't a poorly called game overall, but thought a couple whistles were missed on our end that Marquette seemed to be getting for far less contact.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 20, 2020 13:08:38 GMT -5
I was going to point to the same videos. While the hard hedge is more than just defending the two players in the pick and roll, the other 3 defenders are meant to be covering man and staying home on their man. The videos are really good, but also the same guy in the first video also is the one who breaks down how the Celtics bail on the pick and do a soft roll to beat a hard hedge, which works on a few occasions each game, but mostly because of Kemba's abilities reading and creating that Stephens put in play. The hard hedge isn't the whole possession which most in this board keep trying to say it is, it is. Other rotations are part of the next setup. Marquette beat with Howard because of defensive breakdowns and the hedge not really being run well. But, Howard is hard to stop. Period. Hedge or not. Georgetown used the hard hedge a lot in prior games and didn't get burned much and it stopped the pick and roll as well as the options that were run after them. Most buckets against the Hoyas aren't happening because of the hard hedge as they happen much later in the possession. Also Ewing was one of the NBA coaches who leaned on and coach the use of the hard hedge a lot. Orlando was one of the teams to use it the most. Agreeing with the hard hedge on the four, which Hoyas somewhat lack. Both Yurtseven and Wahab run it well enough with the same success. It takes good players (bigs) to run it, but when defending the pick and roll it is far better than a lot of other options. With other teams running pick and roll heavily to wear a team down there needs to be a good defense for it to stop it and make them beat you another way. Villanova game they abandoned pick and roll early and relied on a hot Bey shooting over tight covering Mosely or getting around Pickett. Hard hedge lead to dead postions for Villanova so Wright shifted away from pick and roll and moved to high screens with guards, where the hard hedge isn't useful and Georgetown didn't run it. In the hard hedge, most of the time it requires the guys in the corner to rotate down and help on the big man. The pick and roll coverage is more than the two guys involved. Help side defense is a huge part of the game, especially in pick and roll coverage, no matter how it's defended, but especially in a double/hard hedge scenario. Help has to be ready for if the man rolls/slips and has open space. The video explaining the Pistons offense details this and how Andre Drummond is always in help when the 1-4 screen is run. In our case it's a 1-5 screen and Pickett or Mosely needs to be able to help. The problem here is the bigs in the conference should be able to score over Pickett and Mosely with very good success, causing extra inside help which leads to an open shooter. And in this case, the hard hedge can cause another player to have to rotate onto Mosely/Pickett's man in the corner which leaves another player open, causing the hard hedge to lead to a bunch of scramble rotations. The slip is an easy way to beat the hedge as you have an easy advantage over the hard hedging defender and even if baseline help is ready, the slip man has a huge advantage in a two on one. Howard beat it because we ran the same thing the same way at an excellent player and he's Markus Howard. I would've liked to have seen a full double or a softer hedge where the defender id there just to make Howard give up the ball. Instead, he was able to take 31 relatively open shots. Plus the big man stepping out was doing nothing in stopping Howard as he got around the big super easy every time he wanted to. If he didn't get around the big, it was an easy split. With Theo John not being a threat from outside, why run a hard hedge? The hard hedge is designed to prevent the pick and pop, so when the guy can't pop, it puts you in so many different disadvantages. This Nova roster doesn't run many pick and rolls much and when they do, JRE is a threat to shoot it from outside and it makes sense to hard hedge. This Nova roster runs a pretty simple, yet effective motion offense that doesn't have too many on-ball screen and rolls. In the Xavier game, Tyrique Jones won't shoot a shot from outside the paint. So, why hard hedge with him? He's strong enough to easily score over Mosely and Pickett so using the hard hedge puts you in a gigantic disadvantage if he's the screener. However, the fours in this conference can shoot it and our 4, Pickett, has better recovery speed and has better inside help to make this work. Omer or Wahab can help inside and contest a shot if that's what the four-man decides to do. In the case of Xavier, Jason Carter is an outside threat. Carter, while only shooting 28.6% from three, can still hit that shot and a step in mid-range jumper. He'd be much better at that than he would in a roll situation where he has to go inside against Omer/Qudus. So there it makes total sense to prevent his jump shot. Yurtseven and Wahab aren't quick enough to run it successfully against most Big East bigs. I don't think any Big East 5 is quick enough to run it effectively. Plus, they are putting the rest of the defense at a disadvantage leaving paint protectors who aren't really preventing a shot from a big man from going in. They may make that big man's shot more difficult, but not by enough to where it's effective. Leaving Yurt/Wahab at home would make their recovery much easier and could even prevent a pass inside which is a big problem for this defense without a typical four-man who can defend the paint. Very very good post! You're 100% correct on Nova too.
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Post by gatormcclusky on Jan 20, 2020 14:17:47 GMT -5
I was going to point to the same videos. While the hard hedge is more than just defending the two players in the pick and roll, the other 3 defenders are meant to be covering man and staying home on their man. The videos are really good, but also the same guy in the first video also is the one who breaks down how the Celtics bail on the pick and do a soft roll to beat a hard hedge, which works on a few occasions each game, but mostly because of Kemba's abilities reading and creating that Stephens put in play. The hard hedge isn't the whole possession which most in this board keep trying to say it is, it is. Other rotations are part of the next setup. Marquette beat with Howard because of defensive breakdowns and the hedge not really being run well. But, Howard is hard to stop. Period. Hedge or not. Georgetown used the hard hedge a lot in prior games and didn't get burned much and it stopped the pick and roll as well as the options that were run after them. Most buckets against the Hoyas aren't happening because of the hard hedge as they happen much later in the possession. Also Ewing was one of the NBA coaches who leaned on and coach the use of the hard hedge a lot. Orlando was one of the teams to use it the most. Agreeing with the hard hedge on the four, which Hoyas somewhat lack. Both Yurtseven and Wahab run it well enough with the same success. It takes good players (bigs) to run it, but when defending the pick and roll it is far better than a lot of other options. With other teams running pick and roll heavily to wear a team down there needs to be a good defense for it to stop it and make them beat you another way. Villanova game they abandoned pick and roll early and relied on a hot Bey shooting over tight covering Mosely or getting around Pickett. Hard hedge lead to dead postions for Villanova so Wright shifted away from pick and roll and moved to high screens with guards, where the hard hedge isn't useful and Georgetown didn't run it. With Theo John not being a threat from outside, why run a hard hedge? The hard hedge is designed to prevent the pick and pop, so when the guy can't pop, it puts you in so many different disadvantages. the hedge isn't just there for the pick and pop, though, and I don't think that's the Hoyas' main focus. I think our biggest reason for using it is to try to limit the ballhandler's shooting and attacking opportunities off the pick - ideally, hedging allows an extra second for the guard to recover around the screen without giving up open space to the guy with the ball. IMO Ewing has decided that it's too tough to either have our guards continually fight through screens chasing their man or to switch defenders and would rather take his chances with stringing the ballhandler out off the pick with a hedge instead. I'm not trying to debate the merits of the scheme, just that's my opinion on what's driving our use of it. I think the primary goal is limiting the ballhandler's options off the screen - pick and pop would be a secondary concern. also you mentioned help defense in your response as being hugely important for this scheme and I agree - I think that's an area where the transfers have really hurt us because we now have only one true forward and very little length defensively at positions 2-4 (and even though he's a good man to man defender, Pickett's help defense is still a work in progress with him learning to play the 4 this year).
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 14:26:04 GMT -5
I was going to point to the same videos. While the hard hedge is more than just defending the two players in the pick and roll, the other 3 defenders are meant to be covering man and staying home on their man. The videos are really good, but also the same guy in the first video also is the one who breaks down how the Celtics bail on the pick and do a soft roll to beat a hard hedge, which works on a few occasions each game, but mostly because of Kemba's abilities reading and creating that Stephens put in play. The hard hedge isn't the whole possession which most in this board keep trying to say it is, it is. Other rotations are part of the next setup. Marquette beat with Howard because of defensive breakdowns and the hedge not really being run well. But, Howard is hard to stop. Period. Hedge or not. Georgetown used the hard hedge a lot in prior games and didn't get burned much and it stopped the pick and roll as well as the options that were run after them. Most buckets against the Hoyas aren't happening because of the hard hedge as they happen much later in the possession. Also Ewing was one of the NBA coaches who leaned on and coach the use of the hard hedge a lot. Orlando was one of the teams to use it the most. Agreeing with the hard hedge on the four, which Hoyas somewhat lack. Both Yurtseven and Wahab run it well enough with the same success. It takes good players (bigs) to run it, but when defending the pick and roll it is far better than a lot of other options. With other teams running pick and roll heavily to wear a team down there needs to be a good defense for it to stop it and make them beat you another way. Villanova game they abandoned pick and roll early and relied on a hot Bey shooting over tight covering Mosely or getting around Pickett. Hard hedge lead to dead postions for Villanova so Wright shifted away from pick and roll and moved to high screens with guards, where the hard hedge isn't useful and Georgetown didn't run it. In the hard hedge, most of the time it requires the guys in the corner to rotate down and help on the big man. The pick and roll coverage is more than the two guys involved. Help side defense is a huge part of the game, especially in pick and roll coverage, no matter how it's defended, but especially in a double/hard hedge scenario. Help has to be ready for if the man rolls/slips and has open space. The video explaining the Pistons offense details this and how Andre Drummond is always in help when the 1-4 screen is run. In our case it's a 1-5 screen and Pickett or Mosely needs to be able to help. The problem here is the bigs in the conference should be able to score over Pickett and Mosely with very good success, causing extra inside help which leads to an open shooter. And in this case, the hard hedge can cause another player to have to rotate onto Mosely/Pickett's man in the corner which leaves another player open, causing the hard hedge to lead to a bunch of scramble rotations. The slip is an easy way to beat the hedge as you have an easy advantage over the hard hedging defender and even if baseline help is ready, the slip man has a huge advantage in a two on one. Howard beat it because we ran the same thing the same way at an excellent player and he's Markus Howard. I would've liked to have seen a full double or a softer hedge where the defender id there just to make Howard give up the ball. Instead, he was able to take 31 relatively open shots. Plus the big man stepping out was doing nothing in stopping Howard as he got around the big super easy every time he wanted to. If he didn't get around the big, it was an easy split. With Theo John not being a threat from outside, why run a hard hedge? The hard hedge is designed to prevent the pick and pop, so when the guy can't pop, it puts you in so many different disadvantages. This Nova roster doesn't run many pick and rolls much and when they do, JRE is a threat to shoot it from outside and it makes sense to hard hedge. This Nova roster runs a pretty simple, yet effective motion offense that doesn't have too many on-ball screen and rolls. In the Xavier game, Tyrique Jones won't shoot a shot from outside the paint. So, why hard hedge with him? He's strong enough to easily score over Mosely and Pickett so using the hard hedge puts you in a gigantic disadvantage if he's the screener. However, the fours in this conference can shoot it and our 4, Pickett, has better recovery speed and has better inside help to make this work. Omer or Wahab can help inside and contest a shot if that's what the four-man decides to do. In the case of Xavier, Jason Carter is an outside threat. Carter, while only shooting 28.6% from three, can still hit that shot and a step in mid-range jumper. He'd be much better at that than he would in a roll situation where he has to go inside against Omer/Qudus. So there it makes total sense to prevent his jump shot. Yurtseven and Wahab aren't quick enough to run it successfully against most Big East bigs. I don't think any Big East 5 is quick enough to run it effectively. Plus, they are putting the rest of the defense at a disadvantage leaving paint protectors who aren't really preventing a shot from a big man from going in. They may make that big man's shot more difficult, but not by enough to where it's effective. Leaving Yurt/Wahab at home would make their recovery much easier and could even prevent a pass inside which is a big problem for this defense without a typical four-man who can defend the paint. Mostly agreeing and saying the same things. But, the wing or corner cover defender should never take more than one step or half step away from their usual corner defense position and if the big and guard up top are set proper (and the mostly are) the corner defender never adjusts to help as their isn't a need. Hoyas have been doing this really well a lot. If the ball gets to the corner the player is covered instantly as the defender is in their normal position to cover out. There have been many times where Pickett covering the corner disrupts the pass to the corner. You said the same thing I said about Villanova but with more words and detail. Bravo. The big difference is you think, but don't seem to be watching closely, that Yurtseven and Wahab only take two quick steps to get in place and make that move properly with their hands up just like they are supposed to. The instances you are calling out (I don't have them in front of me) but I know a couple of them are not failures of Yurtseven and Wahab getting back, it is because they set too high or were on the wrong side of the guard (Yurt in the Hall game did it 3 possessions in a row (two lead to baskets) but Patrick talked him through it and it resulted in no more baskets). You are desiding to call out when the play isn't run propperly and blaming the play, but a utterly failing to call out when it is run properly and failing, which is not so common. Against Marquette the corner coverage and wing coverage guys, mostly Mac and Allen were still struggling and shading to help and out of position. Also Howard was being Howard. We are saying the same things, I'm focussing on when the Hoyas do this well and have the players to do it well (which most teams don't). You like pointing out when they lose focus and flub. Having players with usual focus and athletic ability, as well as other defensive players disciplined to stay home and do what they are supposed is rare. But, it takes focus and all players having energy (the downside of short bench, but if we had a longer bench pick and roll would be run a lot less. The other difficulty Yurt has with this is playing against a big player, but that is less about the hard hedge and his ability to play against the other big.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 14:34:23 GMT -5
With Theo John not being a threat from outside, why run a hard hedge? The hard hedge is designed to prevent the pick and pop, so when the guy can't pop, it puts you in so many different disadvantages. the hedge isn't just there for the pick and pop, though, and I don't think that's the Hoyas' main focus. I think our biggest reason for using it is to try to limit the ballhandler's shooting and attacking opportunities off the pick - ideally, hedging allows an extra second for the guard to recover around the screen without giving up open space to the guy with the ball. IMO Ewing has decided that it's too tough to either have our guards continually fight through screens chasing their man or to switch defenders and would rather take his chances with stringing the ballhandler out off the pick with a hedge instead. I'm not trying to debate the merits of the scheme, just that's my opinion on what's driving our use of it. I think the primary goal is limiting the ballhandler's options off the screen - pick and pop would be a secondary concern. also you mentioned help defense in your response as being hugely important for this scheme and I agree - I think that's an area where the transfers have really hurt us because we now have only one true forward and very little length defensively at positions 2-4 (and even though he's a good man to man defender, Pickett's help defense is still a work in progress with him learning to play the 4 this year). Gator, mdtd is close to fully getting it. Mdtd, mostly is getting, but has areas where there are still gaps in understanding. You are correct on the pick-and-pop. Hard hedge is a mother to understand (as a player it can be easier, but I'm no longer a player and last year turned to coaches that teach it and run it when they have a big to get a decent understanding of it). It can be used to set up other plays or extensions, but if the big does what they should and the guard covers as they should and the wing defenders have discipline it contains that pick and roll and it often cuts down the hard contact from the pick on the guard and big up top with the pick. It can also lead to disruptions and steals (Pickett, Mosely, and Allen have a few this season because of well run hard hedge and they stayed home).
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Jan 20, 2020 15:02:46 GMT -5
the hedge isn't just there for the pick and pop, though, and I don't think that's the Hoyas' main focus. I think our biggest reason for using it is to try to limit the ballhandler's shooting and attacking opportunities off the pick - ideally, hedging allows an extra second for the guard to recover around the screen without giving up open space to the guy with the ball. IMO Ewing has decided that it's too tough to either have our guards continually fight through screens chasing their man or to switch defenders and would rather take his chances with stringing the ballhandler out off the pick with a hedge instead. I'm not trying to debate the merits of the scheme, just that's my opinion on what's driving our use of it. I think the primary goal is limiting the ballhandler's options off the screen - pick and pop would be a secondary concern. also you mentioned help defense in your response as being hugely important for this scheme and I agree - I think that's an area where the transfers have really hurt us because we now have only one true forward and very little length defensively at positions 2-4 (and even though he's a good man to man defender, Pickett's help defense is still a work in progress with him learning to play the 4 this year). Gator, mdtd is close to fully getting it. Mdtd, mostly is getting, but has areas where there are still gaps in understanding. You are correct on the pick-and-pop. Hard hedge is a mother to understand (as a player it can be easier, but I'm no longer a player and last year turned to coaches that teach it and run it when they have a big to get a decent understanding of it). It can be used to set up other plays or extensions, but if the big does what they should and the guard covers as they should and the wing defenders have discipline it contains that pick and roll and it often cuts down the hard contact from the pick on the guard and big up top with the pick. It can also lead to disruptions and steals (Pickett, Mosely, and Allen have a few this season because of well run hard hedge and they stayed home). if the role guy to the basket was the difference as in the Seton Hall game, then I can see all the discussion about hedge. I could also see if the wing player killed us because of help defense on the roller. Dudes get off of it..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 20, 2020 15:12:59 GMT -5
Gator, mdtd is close to fully getting it. Mdtd, mostly is getting, but has areas where there are still gaps in understanding. You are correct on the pick-and-pop. Hard hedge is a mother to understand (as a player it can be easier, but I'm no longer a player and last year turned to coaches that teach it and run it when they have a big to get a decent understanding of it). It can be used to set up other plays or extensions, but if the big does what they should and the guard covers as they should and the wing defenders have discipline it contains that pick and roll and it often cuts down the hard contact from the pick on the guard and big up top with the pick. It can also lead to disruptions and steals (Pickett, Mosely, and Allen have a few this season because of well run hard hedge and they stayed home). if the role guy to the basket was the difference as in the Seton Hall game, then I can see all the discussion about hedge. I could also see if the wing player killed us because of help defense on the roller. Dudes get off of it.. Didn't you ask folks what adjustments could have been made in the Marquette game yesterday?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 20, 2020 15:52:53 GMT -5
For what it's worth, while I think the hard hedge is a bad fit for us, I think the main reason it gets so much attention is because it's really obvious when we do it, and not many other teams do it as often as we do.
But make no mistake, there are many other problems with our defense that make it ineffective.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 20, 2020 16:02:03 GMT -5
the hedge isn't just there for the pick and pop, though, and I don't think that's the Hoyas' main focus. I think our biggest reason for using it is to try to limit the ballhandler's shooting and attacking opportunities off the pick - ideally, hedging allows an extra second for the guard to recover around the screen without giving up open space to the guy with the ball. IMO Ewing has decided that it's too tough to either have our guards continually fight through screens chasing their man or to switch defenders and would rather take his chances with stringing the ballhandler out off the pick with a hedge instead. I'm not trying to debate the merits of the scheme, just that's my opinion on what's driving our use of it. I think the primary goal is limiting the ballhandler's options off the screen - pick and pop would be a secondary concern. also you mentioned help defense in your response as being hugely important for this scheme and I agree - I think that's an area where the transfers have really hurt us because we now have only one true forward and very little length defensively at positions 2-4 (and even though he's a good man to man defender, Pickett's help defense is still a work in progress with him learning to play the 4 this year). Gator, mdtd is close to fully getting it. Mdtd, mostly is getting, but has areas where there are still gaps in understanding. You are correct on the pick-and-pop. Hard hedge is a mother to understand (as a player it can be easier, but I'm no longer a player and last year turned to coaches that teach it and run it when they have a big to get a decent understanding of it). It can be used to set up other plays or extensions, but if the big does what they should and the guard covers as they should and the wing defenders have discipline it contains that pick and roll and it often cuts down the hard contact from the pick on the guard and big up top with the pick. It can also lead to disruptions and steals (Pickett, Mosely, and Allen have a few this season because of well run hard hedge and they stayed home). I'm trying to understand what you are saying but I just can't. I'm trying to say that the hard hedge is best used when there is another quality line of defense inside to prevent the roll man from getting an easy catch and finish. Teams that run the hard hedge have good inside help to back up their screen coverage. Are you saying that's not the case and there doesn't need to be a rotation? Because when the screen is ran poorly on offense (the guard doesn't run his man into the screen) the rotations aren't needed as the on ball defender never loses his man and there is no need for rotations. Because no matter how well a hard hedge is ran, the roll man will be open for a little. Are you saying that isn't the case?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 20, 2020 17:40:37 GMT -5
One big problem with using the hard hedge every time against the screen up top, and it beat us repeatedly against Seton Hall, and at least 3 times Saturday, once with Wahab and twice against Yurt(although Marquette missed one of the lay ups) - our big starts to hedge before the dribbler even gets to the screen, and the screener immediately rolls to the basket while his defender is still stepping out to hedge. Our big can't commit too early.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 17:57:42 GMT -5
One big problem with using the hard hedge every time against the screen up top, and it beat us repeatedly against Seton Hall, and at least 3 times Saturday, once with Wahab and twice against Yurt(although Marquette missed one of the lay ups) - our big starts to hedge before the dribbler even gets to the screen, and the screener immediately rolls to the basket while his defender is still stepping out to hedge. Our big can't commit too early. Yes, beat 3 times because it wasn't run well, just like many other plays run my human basketball players they can flub how it is run. But, they also nailed it perfectly at least 8 times. Watch for when it is run well, as it is a lot. Seton Hall it worked a lot. What beat us wasn't running the hedge but Hall big getting the ball and doing what ever he wanted with Yurtseven by over powering him. It has nothing to do with the hedge. The hedge stopped the entry pass to the big, but they found other ways to get the ball to him.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 18:03:32 GMT -5
Gator, mdtd is close to fully getting it. Mdtd, mostly is getting, but has areas where there are still gaps in understanding. You are correct on the pick-and-pop. Hard hedge is a mother to understand (as a player it can be easier, but I'm no longer a player and last year turned to coaches that teach it and run it when they have a big to get a decent understanding of it). It can be used to set up other plays or extensions, but if the big does what they should and the guard covers as they should and the wing defenders have discipline it contains that pick and roll and it often cuts down the hard contact from the pick on the guard and big up top with the pick. It can also lead to disruptions and steals (Pickett, Mosely, and Allen have a few this season because of well run hard hedge and they stayed home). I'm trying to understand what you are saying but I just can't. I'm trying to say that the hard hedge is best used when there is another quality line of defense inside to prevent the roll man from getting an easy catch and finish. Teams that run the hard hedge have good inside help to back up their screen coverage. Are you saying that's not the case and there doesn't need to be a rotation? Because when the screen is ran poorly on offense (the guard doesn't run his man into the screen) the rotations aren't needed as the on ball defender never loses his man and there is no need for rotations. Because no matter how well a hard hedge is ran, the roll man will be open for a little. Are you saying that isn't the case? If the hedge is run well the big isn't open the defending big covers the entry pass in (or if the big keeps the ball up top denies to the guard diving. If the guard keeps it and drives, if the big is set properly, which is just below the guard and on the side of the big the guard with the ball has to avoid our big and that lets our guard get in place. We are talking one step for our guard and two for our big. That is the way it designed to be run. When positions aren't set right by our big or our guard delays with a wrong read it can lead to a basket. Hoyas however run this really well most of the time. They mostly have it down. They are human and flub it. But, none of us ever have flubbed any thing so it is difficult to understand that. We also are wanting the Hoyas to win all the time and looking for something to blame and something we don't fully grasp is fair fodder.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 18:22:01 GMT -5
One big problem with using the hard hedge every time against the screen up top, and it beat us repeatedly against Seton Hall, and at least 3 times Saturday, once with Wahab and twice against Yurt(although Marquette missed one of the lay ups) - our big starts to hedge before the dribbler even gets to the screen, and the screener immediately rolls to the basket while his defender is still stepping out to hedge. Our big can't commit too early. Ah, you are correct, that is exactly the way to be a well run hard hedge, but it doesn't work all they much, but it can. That is exactly what the Celtics and Spurs run, where the offensive big releases before contact and dives and the defensive big is still arriving and not paying attention. I didn't see Marquette try this, but have been waiting all season for somebody to try it once the Hoyas started getting really good at the hard hedge. That same offensive play also works on the high gate offense with double pick set up top above the elbow (it works much better with this and you don't run hard hedge against the high gate, normally the defense has the big stay back and read from the high middle of the lane). I think you are still missing the majority of times the hard hedge is run correctly and works. Watch for it, the Hoyas do it rather well much of the time and there aren't many other teams that do, but Patrick was known for perfecting it with his NBA teams where he was assistant.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 20, 2020 18:42:40 GMT -5
I'm trying to understand what you are saying but I just can't. I'm trying to say that the hard hedge is best used when there is another quality line of defense inside to prevent the roll man from getting an easy catch and finish. Teams that run the hard hedge have good inside help to back up their screen coverage. Are you saying that's not the case and there doesn't need to be a rotation? Because when the screen is ran poorly on offense (the guard doesn't run his man into the screen) the rotations aren't needed as the on ball defender never loses his man and there is no need for rotations. Because no matter how well a hard hedge is ran, the roll man will be open for a little. Are you saying that isn't the case? If the hedge is run well the big isn't open the defending big covers the entry pass in (or if the big keeps the ball up top denies to the guard diving. If the guard keeps it and drives, if the big is set properly, which is just below the guard and on the side of the big the guard with the ball has to avoid our big and that lets our guard get in place. We are talking one step for our guard and two for our big. That is the way it designed to be run. When positions aren't set right by our big or our guard delays with a wrong read it can lead to a basket. Hoyas however run this really well most of the time. They mostly have it down. They are human and flub it. But, none of us ever have flubbed any thing so it is difficult to understand that. We also are wanting the Hoyas to win all the time and looking for something to blame and something we don't fully grasp is fair fodder. So, we are disagreeing on whether or not the rolling big will be open. I'm saying that even if the hedge is well run, the rolling big is open no matter what, just for varying amounts of time. You are saying that isn't true. That's where we disagree. I mean I don't think either of us are going to convince the other on one way or another, so there isn't much for me to say here. I'm going to continue to mention the hard hedge against a non shooting big as it's a problem the way it's being run. I will look out for situations where it is well run, but I would implore for you to look at situations where the weak side defender has to rotate over in order to prevent a layup and see how that effects our defense. I don't think it's useful against a big who can't shoot and I especially don't think it's useful when the big is left open for a bit (by design) and our interior defender is more of a three than a four. We seem to disagree here. That being said, I think it will continue to be run against a non shooting big in Tyrique Jones. I would also ask, if this isn't the main defensive problem, what do you think is, as our defense has the worst adjusted defensive efficiency in the conference according to KenPom?
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 19:13:53 GMT -5
If the hedge is run well the big isn't open the defending big covers the entry pass in (or if the big keeps the ball up top denies to the guard diving. If the guard keeps it and drives, if the big is set properly, which is just below the guard and on the side of the big the guard with the ball has to avoid our big and that lets our guard get in place. We are talking one step for our guard and two for our big. That is the way it designed to be run. When positions aren't set right by our big or our guard delays with a wrong read it can lead to a basket. Hoyas however run this really well most of the time. They mostly have it down. They are human and flub it. But, none of us ever have flubbed any thing so it is difficult to understand that. We also are wanting the Hoyas to win all the time and looking for something to blame and something we don't fully grasp is fair fodder. So, we are disagreeing on whether or not the rolling big will be open. I'm saying that even if the hedge is well run, the rolling big is open no matter what, just for varying amounts of time. You are saying that isn't true. That's where we disagree. I mean I don't think either of us are going to convince the other on one way or another, so there isn't much for me to say here. I'm going to continue to mention the hard hedge against a non shooting big as it's a problem the way it's being run. I will look out for situations where it is well run, but I would implore for you to look at situations where the weak side defender has to rotate over in order to prevent a layup and see how that effects our defense. I don't think it's useful against a big who can't shoot and I especially don't think it's useful when the big is left open for a bit (by design) and our interior defender is more of a three than a four. We seem to disagree here. That being said, I think it will continue to be run against a non shooting big in Tyrique Jones. I would also ask, if this isn't the main defensive problem, what do you think is, as our defense has the worst adjusted defensive efficiency in the conference according to KenPom? I'm guessing geometry wasn't your strong class. The defensive big is between the two players deying the pass. Large object in a straight line between the two objects is a massive obstruction. Watch the play when run well, which is most of the time. We aren't disagreeing about reality, but one of us is showing they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Watch the game and learn. The videos you point to are good. He has some others that breaking down better and there some others around that do a better job explaining. But, if you can find a good coach who has run it as a player and taught it as a coach (particularly is you watch film with them, then watch them coach players through running it properly as walk throughs, it will click). Getting it run right takes work and a full team on the court doing what they are supposed to. Hoyas do that well most of the time. Right now you are talking non-sense, but for the most part you are getting it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 20, 2020 19:18:13 GMT -5
So, we are disagreeing on whether or not the rolling big will be open. I'm saying that even if the hedge is well run, the rolling big is open no matter what, just for varying amounts of time. You are saying that isn't true. That's where we disagree. I mean I don't think either of us are going to convince the other on one way or another, so there isn't much for me to say here. I'm going to continue to mention the hard hedge against a non shooting big as it's a problem the way it's being run. I will look out for situations where it is well run, but I would implore for you to look at situations where the weak side defender has to rotate over in order to prevent a layup and see how that effects our defense. I don't think it's useful against a big who can't shoot and I especially don't think it's useful when the big is left open for a bit (by design) and our interior defender is more of a three than a four. We seem to disagree here. That being said, I think it will continue to be run against a non shooting big in Tyrique Jones. I would also ask, if this isn't the main defensive problem, what do you think is, as our defense has the worst adjusted defensive efficiency in the conference according to KenPom? I'm guessing geometry wasn't your strong class. The defensive big is between the two players deying the pass. Large object in a straight line between the two objects is a massive obstruction. Watch the play when run well, which is most of the time. We aren't disagreeing about reality, but one of us is showing they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Watch the game and learn. The videos you point to are good. He has some others that breaking down better and there some others around that do a better job explaining. But, if you can find a good coach who has run it as a player and taught it as a coach (particularly is you watch film with them, then watch them coach players through running it properly as walk throughs, it will click). Getting it run right takes work and a full team on the court doing what they are supposed to. Hoyas do that well most of the time. Right now you are talking non-sense, but for the most part you are getting it. Which game would you say Gtown ran it the best? I'd like to go back & rewatch what I'm missing.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 19:33:09 GMT -5
If the hedge is run well the big isn't open the defending big covers the entry pass in (or if the big keeps the ball up top denies to the guard diving. If the guard keeps it and drives, if the big is set properly, which is just below the guard and on the side of the big the guard with the ball has to avoid our big and that lets our guard get in place. We are talking one step for our guard and two for our big. That is the way it designed to be run. When positions aren't set right by our big or our guard delays with a wrong read it can lead to a basket. Hoyas however run this really well most of the time. They mostly have it down. They are human and flub it. But, none of us ever have flubbed any thing so it is difficult to understand that. We also are wanting the Hoyas to win all the time and looking for something to blame and something we don't fully grasp is fair fodder. So, we are disagreeing on whether or not the rolling big will be open. I'm saying that even if the hedge is well run, the rolling big is open no matter what, just for varying amounts of time. You are saying that isn't true. That's where we disagree. I mean I don't think either of us are going to convince the other on one way or another, so there isn't much for me to say here. I'm going to continue to mention the hard hedge against a non shooting big as it's a problem the way it's being run. I will look out for situations where it is well run, but I would implore for you to look at situations where the weak side defender has to rotate over in order to prevent a layup and see how that effects our defense. I don't think it's useful against a big who can't shoot and I especially don't think it's useful when the big is left open for a bit (by design) and our interior defender is more of a three than a four. We seem to disagree here. That being said, I think it will continue to be run against a non shooting big in Tyrique Jones. I would also ask, if this isn't the main defensive problem, what do you think is, as our defense has the worst adjusted defensive efficiency in the conference according to KenPom? The biggest defensive problem by a long shot is a short bench and avoiding foul. The team is built (for the most part) to be a heavy pressure full court press team. Patrick has in your face defenders for the most part, Mac is getting there and probably the one who has the most work yet to do. Hoyas lean on man and some weak side help (but not so much since the four left as it is too tiring). Players are working to avoid fouls more than normal, avoiding contact to reduce wear and tear, and trying to conserve energy all while playing their hearts out. That is not a great plan to have to lean on. Hoyas currently only have one wing who is long and athletic and when Pickett is out that becomes a big problem. That is the problem. Not a play that is run 8 to 20 times a game that is run 3 to 5 seconds of a possession of the 50 to 75 average possessions a game on defense. It would be utterly nuts to think that stance is a smart one to stand on, particularly if not understanding it. Thinking Yurtseven and Wahab are threes is the funniest thing of this whole chat. Wahab is a battle beast and Yurtseven plays strong until he is near the rim and then goes finesse game, which is a bit odd as he shows he knows the craft of being a strong big, but opts not to. Both are fairly athletic for 6'10 and 7' players and both have good foot work (Wahab has more work to do on this front, but good for not playing all that many years). Both run the hard hedge quite well and hit their exact spots most of the time and do the roll back with arms up denying the entry pass really well (if they are set properly from the start).
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 20, 2020 19:52:30 GMT -5
So, we are disagreeing on whether or not the rolling big will be open. I'm saying that even if the hedge is well run, the rolling big is open no matter what, just for varying amounts of time. You are saying that isn't true. That's where we disagree. I mean I don't think either of us are going to convince the other on one way or another, so there isn't much for me to say here. I'm going to continue to mention the hard hedge against a non shooting big as it's a problem the way it's being run. I will look out for situations where it is well run, but I would implore for you to look at situations where the weak side defender has to rotate over in order to prevent a layup and see how that effects our defense. I don't think it's useful against a big who can't shoot and I especially don't think it's useful when the big is left open for a bit (by design) and our interior defender is more of a three than a four. We seem to disagree here. That being said, I think it will continue to be run against a non shooting big in Tyrique Jones. I would also ask, if this isn't the main defensive problem, what do you think is, as our defense has the worst adjusted defensive efficiency in the conference according to KenPom? I'm guessing geometry wasn't your strong class. The defensive big is between the two players deying the pass. Large object in a straight line between the two objects is a massive obstruction. Watch the play when run well, which is most of the time. We aren't disagreeing about reality, but one of us is showing they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Watch the game and learn. The videos you point to are good. He has some others that breaking down better and there some others around that do a better job explaining. But, if you can find a good coach who has run it as a player and taught it as a coach (particularly is you watch film with them, then watch them coach players through running it properly as walk throughs, it will click). Getting it run right takes work and a full team on the court doing what they are supposed to. Hoyas do that well most of the time. Right now you are talking non-sense, but for the most part you are getting it. Here's a link showing exactly what I am explaining. It should start at 1:29, but if it doesn't that's around the time to skip to. Some screening the screener action and then some not. Then some reading helpside rotations (which are needed to hedge.) If I'm still wrong after finding evidence of the methods I described being used against the hard hedge then I don't know what to tell you man. The first 1:29 goes through two things that we agreed beat the hard hedge with a star guard, at least I think we agreed on it. But since you are so intelligent, I assume that you came up with something that would prove me, a non-sense talker wrong.
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saxagael
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 20:11:41 GMT -5
I'm guessing geometry wasn't your strong class. The defensive big is between the two players deying the pass. Large object in a straight line between the two objects is a massive obstruction. Watch the play when run well, which is most of the time. We aren't disagreeing about reality, but one of us is showing they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Watch the game and learn. The videos you point to are good. He has some others that breaking down better and there some others around that do a better job explaining. But, if you can find a good coach who has run it as a player and taught it as a coach (particularly is you watch film with them, then watch them coach players through running it properly as walk throughs, it will click). Getting it run right takes work and a full team on the court doing what they are supposelid to. Hoyas do that well most of the time. Right now you are talking non-sense, but for the most part you are getting it. Which game would you say Gtown ran it the best? I'd like to go back & rewatch what I'm missing. They had quite a few plays in Marquette and Seton Hall where it worked (many in Seton Hall), but both also had flubs and need to find a game and timestamps. The game where they got it going properly was Duke after some early game disasters most times they ran it. There is a 10 minute highlight film of Marquette game scoring plays there are only two scoring plays off hard hedge in the highlights, but the first Yurtseven never gets there as Marquette gets hit with hard pick before he gets to the lane that frees Jonhson to set the high pick and roll. There are a quite a few plays early where Yurt is rotating out on top to cover a wide open Howard shooting as Mosely and Allen got caught in cross screens and or double side picks (Marquette was running an insane number of cross picks on the side and double picks), which has nothing to do with a hard hedge, but everything to do with a really good player being aware with defense breaks down and Yurt gets out to get a hand in Howards face but still buckets. At 5:17 - - is a failed hard hedge as Yurtseven doesn't get there in time and then get above the guard, which should never happen and can't recover to get to Howard. At 5:29 - - you see a good hard hedge at the end after the offensive big rolled and Yurt has stayed in front of the guard to cut off the line with his arms up. The hard hedge did its job and Marquette kicks out to the top where Howard does a hezzie Mosely bites on and drive the lane left to Yurtseven who is in foul trouble so doesn't contest. That could have been done better with Mosely contesting more on top, but the hard hedge did its job. At 5:54 - - The hard hedge works on the roll, but Howard goes straight across and does not move to stay closer to the 3 line, which Mosely is in good position to cover and Howard takes a deep 3 off the move horizontally. It is a bad shot for Howard, who has been making similar. But, the hedge works. Had Howard stayed home Yurtseven is in the correct position to deny the pass to the offesive big. Wahab runs it perfectly with Mac at 7:13 - (he flubbed it by going way too high two or three plays prior and on the same possession does it again at 7:27 - - and the guard dribbles out and passes to a deep Howard who is covered at normal depth by Mosely who stayed home and did exactly what he should do. There is a flubbed hard hedge around 6 mintue mark where Howard doesn't wait for the pick and goes away from it as Yurt is coming to hedge and Howard splits both defenders to get to the lane for a bucket (smart tough play by Howard). This doesn't show where they have done it best, but the video shows 3 times it didn't work as not run properly as and two where Yurtseven was picked hard on the away middle to free Johnson to set the pick and not have the hard hedge get set (why on earth do you want the hard hedge to be in place if is utterly sucks, oh because it actually works). So 5 hard hedge attempts got beat and there are four in the highlights where the hard hedge works properly (and one where Wahab nails it twice) and the scoring is against man properly in place. This doesn't show the times it work and no scoring happened on that play as this is highlights that got a large percentage of the points for both teams.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 20:51:36 GMT -5
I'm guessing geometry wasn't your strong class. The defensive big is between the two players deying the pass. Large object in a straight line between the two objects is a massive obstruction. Watch the play when run well, which is most of the time. We aren't disagreeing about reality, but one of us is showing they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Watch the game and learn. The videos you point to are good. He has some others that breaking down better and there some others around that do a better job explaining. But, if you can find a good coach who has run it as a player and taught it as a coach (particularly is you watch film with them, then watch them coach players through running it properly as walk throughs, it will click). Getting it run right takes work and a full team on the court doing what they are supposed to. Hoyas do that well most of the time. Right now you are talking non-sense, but for the most part you are getting it. Here's a link showing exactly what I am explaining. It should start at 1:29, but if it doesn't that's around the time to skip to. Some screening the screener action and then some not. Then some reading helpside rotations (which are needed to hedge.) If I'm still wrong after finding evidence of the methods I described being used against the hard hedge then I don't know what to tell you man. The first 1:29 goes through two things that we agreed beat the hard hedge with a star guard, at least I think we agreed on it. But since you are so intelligent, I assume that you came up with something that would prove me, a non-sense talker wrong. Good grief you are showing me a play where it isn't run remotely correctly as they flipping abandon the guard not stay in their face and that leads to an alley oop. Do you really not have a clue about how it is run or what they heck hard hedge actually is. You are farther away than you were before. Also watch Hoyas run it, there are time they run it poorly and it still works well. As long as the big stays below the guard and on the side as the big, and the guard on defense gets back to position on the guard. You are showing play not run well at all, but not every play is run well, which is how the other team scores and no hard hedge was harmed in the scoring, which is 98% of basketball. And you want to show how little you know about it repeatedly? We don't have differences, you have no idea what you are talking about and can't find anything to back you up.
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