Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Mar 29, 2023 13:47:12 GMT -5
I remember when I applied to colleges back in 1983 that Barron’s category of Most Selective Colleges was where to look.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 2, 2023 10:25:15 GMT -5
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 22, 2023 7:14:19 GMT -5
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Apr 22, 2023 19:19:35 GMT -5
Elite Colleges: Rankings are stupid. We won’t participate anymore. We don’t care what US News does now. US News: [Circulates draft rankings which aren’t entirely to elite schools’ liking] Elite Colleges: HOW DARE YOU!!!
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 22, 2023 19:59:10 GMT -5
Georgetown has hurt itself by not gaming the rankings like other peer institutions such as Wash U and Emory. It’s not just the endowment, it’s common application, marketing, ED2, etc. Like it or not, kids use these rankings.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 23, 2023 14:02:47 GMT -5
Georgetown has hurt itself by not gaming the rankings like other peer institutions such as Wash U and Emory. It’s not just the endowment, it’s common application, marketing, ED2, etc. Like it or not, kids use these rankings. Gonna be an arrogant Hoya-ier Than Thou for a moment: if a kid is making their college choice decision on the basis of USNWR rankings... I don't really want them. No shortage of people who want to be at *Georgetown*, as opposed to the highest-ranked school they can get into. That's who I want as part of the community.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 23, 2023 17:32:59 GMT -5
Georgetown has hurt itself by not gaming the rankings like other peer institutions such as Wash U and Emory. It’s not just the endowment, it’s common application, marketing, ED2, etc. Like it or not, kids use these rankings. Gonna be an arrogant Hoya-ier Than Thou for a moment: if a kid is making their college choice decision on the basis of USNWR rankings... I don't really want them. No shortage of people who want to be at *Georgetown*, as opposed to the highest-ranked school they can get into. That's who I want as part of the community. This type of arrogance will allow others to pass us by. It similar to the basketball program. Life has a way of humbling those that are too comfortable.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 23, 2023 20:38:53 GMT -5
Gonna be an arrogant Hoya-ier Than Thou for a moment: if a kid is making their college choice decision on the basis of USNWR rankings... I don't really want them. No shortage of people who want to be at *Georgetown*, as opposed to the highest-ranked school they can get into. That's who I want as part of the community. This type of arrogance will allow others to pass us by. It similar to the basketball program. Life has a way of humbling those that are too comfortable. Maybe. But I view the risk of diluting what makes the school distinctive by chasing prestige whoring to be the greater risk.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 23, 2023 20:42:25 GMT -5
This type of arrogance will allow others to pass us by. It similar to the basketball program. Life has a way of humbling those that are too comfortable. Maybe. But I view the risk of diluting what makes the school distinctive by chasing prestige whoring to be the greater risk. They're not fully mutually exclusive. You can make some targeted decisions that help with the rankings in ways that dont really dilute the student population.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 23, 2023 21:22:31 GMT -5
Kids may use ED or ED2 but it's certainly not in their interest to do so.
Early decision is marketed as a benefit to students when in fact it's a defensive tool for universities. Below is a list of early Action (EA) vs Early Decision (ED) schools among Ivy League:
Early Action: Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Brown
Early Decision: Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, Cornell
This is no accident. Without ED, applicants to Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, Cornell always lose to HYP and to a lesser extent, Brown. EA schools don't have to pressure applicants into making a formal commitment as a condition of admission...and it is a form of pressure.
Below the Ancient Eight, early policies at the USN&WR Top 25:
Early Action: MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Michigan, USC
Early Decision: Chicago, Hopkins, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Wash U, Emory
No Early Programs (i.e., the lottery): Cal (245,168 applications) UCLA (169,800 applications)
Georgetown's EA program is honest and holistic. Because GU is need blind and can't offer financial aid until April, forcing a commitment prior to April is a form of bait and switch. Institutionally, I surmise that Georgetown is much more comfortable alongside HYP, MIT and Stanford in allowing school choice than going the way of Penn and Chicago, who are dealing from a position of weakness in early admittance.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Apr 24, 2023 8:40:15 GMT -5
Georgetown has hurt itself by not gaming the rankings like other peer institutions such as Wash U and Emory. It’s not just the endowment, it’s common application, marketing, ED2, etc. Like it or not, kids use these rankings. As far as I can tell, Georgetown has been ranked between 17 and 25 in every USNWR ranking since 1988, and has never made admissions policy decisions to improve its standing. Schools like Wash U, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, and Vanderbilt may succeed in gaming their way to a higher ranking, but they when students actually have a choice between one of those schools and Georgetown, they prefer Georgetown by a wide margin. I am a bit more concerned about the ascendancy of NYU and USC, as those are not schools we would have considered peers 20 years ago, but now that they have the imprimatur of a Top 25 ranking, their locations may make them more attractive competitors. I was pretty surprised to meet a young woman at an accepted student reception who was choosing between GU and NYU this year, but then I saw the rankings and understood how it could feel like a closer call.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 24, 2023 10:17:00 GMT -5
NYU (private) has higher ranked law, business and medical schools. Also, state schools have done well in the rankings with Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, UVA and UNC making strides. I could see Michigan leapfrogging GU in coming years. Dip below top-25 and it’s game over. You’re in the bucket with Florida, UNC, Tufts and Wake.
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nbhoya
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Post by nbhoya on Apr 24, 2023 19:43:36 GMT -5
We may not want to wade fully into gaming the system, but we need to at least dip our toe. I’d really like to see us get top 15.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 24, 2023 21:29:16 GMT -5
We may not want to wade fully into gaming the system, but we need to at least dip our toe. I’d really like to see us get top 15. The methodology is set up, in part, to limit widespread movements in the rankings. If all of a sudden Liberty moved into the Top 25 and Columbia fell out of it, the "business" of higher education would lose credibility in USN&WR as a valid indicator. The methodology is based on the following formula: Alumni giving rate average (3%): Georgetown fares better than most, but less than other Ivies with more established annual giving traditions. This category tends to hurt public schools, large enrollment universities, and HBCU's. Class size (8%): Favors smaller schools with smaller classes. Peer assessment (20%): The largest and most controversial category. This category was altered a few years ago to remove assessments from high school officials, which had a much higher assessment of GU than most schools. That saud, gerogetown'sa alck of STEM and applied research take it down a notch when AAU schools review it. Faculty salary average (7%): Above average, but a function of the DC cost of living. Faculty with a doctoral or terminal degree (3%): Georgetown's use of adjuncts, while an asset in DC and not a means to hire part time help, brings this number down. Faculty who are full-time (1%): See above. Financial resources (10%): The biggest imbalance among the Top 25 is Georgetown's endowment, which is the lowest among the top 25. Graduate indebtedness average (3%): Georgetown's reduced ability to offer grant vs. loan is a headwind here. Graduate indebtedness proportion (2%): See above. Graduation rate average (17.6%): Very strong. Freshmen Retention (4.4%): Very strong. Graduation rate performance (8%): This is a measure of predicted vs. actual graduation rate; again, GU is well placed here. High school class standing, Top 10% (2%): Very strong. Pell Grant graduation rates (2.5%): An area for possible growth in that GU has fewer Pell Grant recipients than many of its peers. Pell Grant graduation rate performance (2.5%): his is a measure of predicted vs. actual graduation rate among Pell recipients. Standardized test scores (5%): Very strong; there; not much upward mobility here. Student-faculty ratio (1%): GU does OK here but it's a small part of the formula. Bottom line: to improve this number, it will take three factors: 1) peer assessment, particularly in STEM, 2) endowment, and 3) faculty salaries. www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/ranking-criteria-and-weights
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hoyaguy
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Post by hoyaguy on Apr 26, 2023 20:29:10 GMT -5
Below the Ancient Eight, early policies at the USN&WR Top 25: Early Action:MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Michigan, USC Early Decision:Chicago, Hopkins, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Wash U, Emory No Early Programs (i.e., the lottery):Cal (245,168 applications) UCLA (169,800 applications) Georgetown's EA program is honest and holistic. Because GU is need blind and can't offer financial aid until April, forcing a commitment prior to April is a form of bait and switch. Institutionally, I surmise that Georgetown is much more comfortable alongside HYP, MIT and Stanford in allowing school choice than going the way of Penn and Chicago, who are dealing from a position of weakness in early admittance. Ahhh I see what you did there "need-blind", just as the players who work hard to bring in millions for universities, but used never see a dime were just "student-athletes" (South Park reference). In other news related to schools in our "bracket" of the US news rankings: sports.yahoo.com/university-chicago-first-settle-financial-183713669.html TL;DR: UChicago was the first to settle in the lawsuit by former students who accuse other "elite" schools, including Georgetown, of colluding to minimize financial aid and favor the rich applicants by not actually being need blind to all as required in their specially exemption from Congress that expired last year. I realize the lawsuit and settlement does not prove anything right now, but come on lol we all know it happens, "need-blind" is a bs misnomer by schools unless you want to use the idea that you don't need to have a 100% loss of vision to be officially labelled as "blind".
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Post by reformation on Apr 27, 2023 10:36:43 GMT -5
Would mostly agree with DFW above that any movement is going to come from1) Peer assessment 2) Faculty Salaries 3) Endowment. Improving those require a real strategic shift in priorities. It's really not a "marketing issue"--there is a pretty big gap between a Gtwn and most of the schools ahead of us from a research/academic perspective.
I guess without a strategic shift probably one thing we could do that would improve the peer reviews would be to upgrade the rigor of the undergrad curriculum. Outside of law schools I'd bet that people from other schools probably have a more muted view of Gtwn grads than we ourselves do. The two schools that come to mind that have focused on improving their rankings and significantly upgrading their research/academics in general over the past couple of decades are Northwestern and Duke.
As far as the ED 1/ED 2 etc. I guess I would adopt whatever system gets us the best students. I understand Gtwn's equity argument re financial aid, though I wonder how that really works in practice. Gtwn's rep among other schools is a place that heavily favors rich kids in undergrad admission.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 28, 2023 23:43:40 GMT -5
Would mostly agree with DFW above that any movement is going to come from1) Peer assessment 2) Faculty Salaries 3) Endowment. Improving those require a real strategic shift in priorities. It's really not a "marketing issue"--there is a pretty big gap between a Gtwn and most of the schools ahead of us from a research/academic perspective. I guess without a strategic shift probably one thing we could do that would improve the peer reviews would be to upgrade the rigor of the undergrad curriculum. Outside of law schools I'd bet that people from other schools probably have a more muted view of Gtwn grads than we ourselves do. The two schools that come to mind that have focused on improving their rankings and significantly upgrading their research/academics in general over the past couple of decades are Northwestern and Duke. As far as the ED 1/ED 2 etc. I guess I would adopt whatever system gets us the best students. I understand Gtwn's equity argument re financial aid, though I wonder how that really works in practice. Gtwn's rep among other schools is a place that heavily favors rich kids in undergrad admission. One really has to keep in mind that the Peer Reputation scores are, as DFW mentioned, really skewed by research volume/reputation and graduate (principally PhD) program reputation. This is how you end up with Georgetown at 4.1 while UC Berkeley is at 4.7 and UCLA is at 4.3, even though there are many students at the California schools who would not be competitive for admission to Georgetown. (Data here: www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/comments/9egbvf/i_compiled_a_bunch_of_locked_us_news_reputation/)The high school counselor rating, and the commensurate head-to-head admissions data tells a different story (which I haven't personally laid eyes on in almost 15 years at this point, but Charlie Deacon shares fragments with the AAP from time to time). In the eyes of counselors and students, Georgetown is competitive with - and not infrequently wins head-to-head against - the Dukes and Northerwesterns and Cornells and Penns. In underresourcing of large swaths of the graduate school remains a real drag... and is, in fact, a major point of contention playing out right now in the fractious negotiations between the grad student union and the administration. Case in point: EDIT to add: Speaking as a former employee of the admissions office... and Jack can back me up on this... while there is a small number of 'special interest students' who are almost inevitably from wealthier backgrounds, and of course any sort of alumni legacy status or high-level athletic status in sports like rowing or field hockey tends to correlate heavily with wealth, admissions decisions are absolutely need-blind in the sense that ability to pay is not used as a decision criteria, full stop. Admissions officers and committees do not look at that information.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on May 1, 2023 11:27:24 GMT -5
Well it's been more than 15 years since I last sat on an admissions committee, but considering that the Dean of Admissions, the Sr. Associate Directors of Admissions, and the President of the University all are the same as when I worked there, I think it is fair to say that no one is considering ability to pay when evaluating applicants for the "competitive" slots, and indeed it is more likely that the admissions committees would look favorably on a student whose family background suggests they are likely to have need. Even when looking for applicants to admit off of the waiting list, no one ever suggested taking a student who would pay full boat vs. a student who would need max aid.
With that said, there are other more subtle ways Georgetown ends up with many, many wealthy students in its applicant pool that lead to their overrepresentation in the incoming class. Sports, legacy, development, and the inertia of "feeder schools" that are almost entirely top prep/private schools or public schools located in the wealthiest districts in the country all contribute. There was a time when Georgetown may have been able to make the case that its heavy skew toward private schools was not necessarily favoring the wealthy because Catholic/Jesuit high school grads were often middle class or even working class, but the ones who are sending dozens of applicants to Georgetown now are just as elite as their formerly Episcopal neighbors.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 1, 2023 12:07:17 GMT -5
With that said, there are other more subtle ways Georgetown ends up with many, many wealthy students in its applicant pool that lead to their overrepresentation in the incoming class. Sports, legacy, development, and the inertia of "feeder schools" that are almost entirely top prep/private schools or public schools located in the wealthiest districts in the country all contribute. There was a time when Georgetown may have been able to make the case that its heavy skew toward private schools was not necessarily favoring the wealthy because Catholic/Jesuit high school grads were often middle class or even working class, but the ones who are sending dozens of applicants to Georgetown now are just as elite as their formerly Episcopal neighbors. Over half of applications come from ten states, and seven are in the top 20 states by median income; in fact, three of the top four states rank in the top five nationally. Conversely, there is only one state in the bottom 20 in median income that is capable of sending large numbers of applications (Florida) and these skew to private and independent schools. Catholic high schools could provide a more economically diverse student body but just 11 percent are applying from a non-Jesuit program, and some of these school's counselors are candid in driving applications to less competitive and/or more cost-effective choices. Diocesan schools nationwide have never been a feeder to GU and thus have no inherent loyalty. The Jesuits were once big on worldwide evangelization, but their southward move largely stopped at the Potomac.
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Post by reformation on May 3, 2023 11:41:12 GMT -5
Kind of agree with DFW on the wealth thing. Especially the point re Gtwn not really going after the non-Jesuit catholic school kids. Gtwn favoring richer applicants may or may not be true--it's certainly a perception. It certainly is a factor in the non-BB sports recruiting as Rusky mentioned above.
Regarding academic reputation, I think there is a lot more to it than Rusky mentioned above. For one, not a lot of Gtwn kids apply to non-law/bus grad programs. Gtwn's track record on getting the few that do apply to grad programs into top places is also probably a bit weaker than schools you would think of as peers. If officials at other univ's saw a lot of top applicants from Gtwn for their grad programs, it would upgrade their view of Gtwn regardless of Gtwn not having a ton of top PHd programs. The lack of grad school candidates probably has something both with both Gtwn student's preferences but also some effect the structure and rigor of the undergrad academic program.
The other issue re academic reputation is more of a strategic decision by Gtwn not to really make any bets on building up strength in specific academic areas. Most academics at other universities have a generally mildly favorable view of Gtwn and are usually puzzled why Gtwn does not have elite efforts in many areas that it could have built given its unique location (a few that come to mind would be computational biology and neuroscience, data science generally, quant poli sci, computational linguistics, certain areas of economics--list goes on.) Beyond the obvious misses in the data science/comp sci field Gtwn could have added strength to humanities places like its history dept to bring it from excellent to world class--but the univ rarely makes decisions like that.
Some far sighted faculty advocated for big investments in Comp sci, data science, etc. as a backbone to other disciplines rather than investing a lot of $ to build subscale efforts elsewhere in the late 90's. Obviously, we went with the latter strategy to our detriment. Therefore, there's a bit of a ceiling on our academic rep given lack of A) Obvious areas of academic & research strength--incl many where we have no presence at all and B) Nonprofessional grad school applicants (Gtwn is below places like Williams and Amherst in this regard).
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