EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 27, 2019 13:44:14 GMT -5
Biden's plan in the article is full immediate capital gains taxation of all inherited assets with a top 39.9% rate. No exclusions. Not sure what the WSJ article you posted cited because I don't want to subscribe but according to this recent article there are at least some exclusions... thehill.com/policy/finance/453110-biden-proposes-tax-increases-for-wealthy-as-part-of-health-care-planAdditionally, Biden is proposing to increase taxes on wealthy people's capital gains, which people pay when they sell investments. The top rate on long-term capital gains is currently 20 percent, and Biden is proposing to roughly double that for those making over $1 million.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 27, 2019 13:54:03 GMT -5
Biden's plan in the article is full immediate capital gains taxation of all inherited assets with a top 39.9% rate. No exclusions. Not sure what the WSJ article you posted cited because I don't want to subscribe but according to this recent article there are at least some exclusions... thehill.com/policy/finance/453110-biden-proposes-tax-increases-for-wealthy-as-part-of-health-care-planAdditionally, Biden is proposing to increase taxes on wealthy people's capital gains, which people pay when they sell investments. The top rate on long-term capital gains is currently 20 percent, and Biden is proposing to roughly double that for those making over $1 million.I the WSJ Biden offers no exclusions. He is now apparently (I can't believe my eyes each day as I go to the web sites) going full liberal or rather full progressive, or rather full socialist, or rather full communist to try and get the nomination from Warren or Sanders. Maybe he adds some exclusions once the left is disposed of in the primaries.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 27, 2019 13:58:02 GMT -5
If the 2020 Democrats win, I wonder what Tyson's Corner Mall will look like in about 5 years The outside won't be different, just with a lot of vacancies from the demise of major mall merchants like Sears, Bloomingdale's, Lord & Taylor, etc. When Macy's or JCPenney goes under, these spaces won't be filled. Shopping centers are an endangered species. www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/22/mall-of-america-minnesota-retail-anniversaryMy worst nightmare with the way we are apparently going is store upon store with those red star hats and other red star merchandise that if you have ever been to China are so ubiquitous.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,713
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 27, 2019 14:05:59 GMT -5
Not sure what the WSJ article you posted cited because I don't want to subscribe but according to this recent article there are at least some exclusions... thehill.com/policy/finance/453110-biden-proposes-tax-increases-for-wealthy-as-part-of-health-care-planAdditionally, Biden is proposing to increase taxes on wealthy people's capital gains, which people pay when they sell investments. The top rate on long-term capital gains is currently 20 percent, and Biden is proposing to roughly double that for those making over $1 million.I the WSJ Biden offers no exclusions. He is now apparently (I can't believe my eyes each day as I go to the web sites) going full liberal or rather full progressive, or rather full socialist, or rather full communist to try and get the nomination from Warren or Sanders. Maybe he adds some exclusions once the left is disposed of in the primaries. Does the article you're citing actually state that there will be no exclusions in concrete wording?
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 27, 2019 14:22:52 GMT -5
Not sure what the WSJ article you posted cited because I don't want to subscribe but according to this recent article there are at least some exclusions... thehill.com/policy/finance/453110-biden-proposes-tax-increases-for-wealthy-as-part-of-health-care-planAdditionally, Biden is proposing to increase taxes on wealthy people's capital gains, which people pay when they sell investments. The top rate on long-term capital gains is currently 20 percent, and Biden is proposing to roughly double that for those making over $1 million.I the WSJ Biden offers no exclusions. He is now apparently (I can't believe my eyes each day as I go to the web sites) going full liberal or rather full progressive, or rather full socialist, or rather full communist to try and get the nomination from Warren or Sanders. Maybe he adds some exclusions once the left is disposed of in the primaries. This is no longer FDR's or JFK's or Lyndon's or even Bill's (Clintton) or Barack's Democrat Party.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 27, 2019 14:32:03 GMT -5
I the WSJ Biden offers no exclusions. He is now apparently (I can't believe my eyes each day as I go to the web sites) going full liberal or rather full progressive, or rather full socialist, or rather full communist to try and get the nomination from Warren or Sanders. Maybe he adds some exclusions once the left is disposed of in the primaries. Does the article you're citing actually state that there will be no exclusions in concrete wording? I embedded the WSJ link, death creates a taxable event requiring the payment of the capital gains rate.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 27, 2019 17:07:47 GMT -5
Does the article you're citing actually state that there will be no exclusions in concrete wording? I embedded the WSJ link, death creates a taxable event requiring the payment of the capital gains rate. The article is behind a paywall and I have no interest in subscribing to the WSJ, that's why I'm asking you if the article states specifically that there are no exclusions in the current Biden proposal... Full disclosure, after reading your other post again I now see that you were referring to the inheritance tax not the capital gains tax... In this Tax Foundation article from July 31st, it states that Biden hasn't stated how he intends to implement the removal of the "step-up basis tax" on inherited assets. I find it hard to believe much has changed on that in the past 27 days and that only the WSJ would be reporting on it... taxfoundation.org/joe-biden-tax-proposals/However, Biden is not simply proposing to raise the top rate on capital gains. He also proposes eliminating step-up basis in capital gains. According to the JCT, not taxing gains at death results in a loss of about $40 billion each year. Again, this is a tax expenditure estimate and not a revenue estimate, and the amount of revenue Biden’s proposal would ultimately raise would depend on how he structures the elimination of step-up in basis. He could require heirs to take on the decedent’s basis when they receive an asset, known as carryover basis, but still, allow heirs to defer the realization of that inherited asset’s capital gain. This would raise much less than making death a taxable event—and even then, proposals to tax capital gains at death can have many exemptions.
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Post by badgerhoya on Aug 27, 2019 18:18:54 GMT -5
I the WSJ Biden offers no exclusions. He is now apparently (I can't believe my eyes each day as I go to the web sites) going full liberal or rather full progressive, or rather full socialist, or rather full communist to try and get the nomination from Warren or Sanders. Maybe he adds some exclusions once the left is disposed of in the primaries. This is no longer FDR's or JFK's or Lyndon's or even Bill's (Clintton) or Barack's Democrat Party. You might want to relax on the pearls you're clutching... they're easily crushed.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 27, 2019 18:23:59 GMT -5
The front page article in today's WSJ in its section on Biden's proposals has no exclusions. It is a simple pure ending of the stepped upped basis upon death for all capital gains.
So you own a house and die, whoever receives the property would need to pay the full capital gains rate on the house. This is a back door estate tax and a particularly cruel one in that there is no protective exclusion.
The modern estate tax has always protected from 80 (in the 60s and 70s) to 98% of estates which this back door estate tax does not do.
I speculate that once Bernie/Lizzie are put away he will pivot back. I am actually astonished at what I saw today.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 27, 2019 19:32:47 GMT -5
The level of hyperbole and false equation of political stances are laughable.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,198
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 27, 2019 19:44:14 GMT -5
The front page article in today's WSJ in its section on Biden's proposals has no exclusions. It is a simple pure ending of the stepped upped basis upon death for all capital gains. So you own a house and die, whoever receives the property would need to pay the full capital gains rate on the house. This is a back door estate tax and a particularly cruel one in that there is no protective exclusion. The modern estate tax has always protected from 80 (in the 60s and 70s) to 98% of estates which this back door estate tax does not do. I speculate that once Bernie/Lizzie are put away he will pivot back. I am actually astonished at what I saw today. You do know that, when this happens, you’ll be dead and it won’t matter?
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,713
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 28, 2019 10:34:54 GMT -5
The front page article in today's WSJ in its section on Biden's proposals has no exclusions. It is a simple pure ending of the stepped upped basis upon death for all capital gains. So you own a house and die, whoever receives the property would need to pay the full capital gains rate on the house. This is a back door estate tax and a particularly cruel one in that there is no protective exclusion. The modern estate tax has always protected from 80 (in the 60s and 70s) to 98% of estates which this back door estate tax does not do. I speculate that once Bernie/Lizzie are put away he will pivot back. I am actually astonished at what I saw today. I took a trip to my local library this morning to read the WSJ article you referenced above... Under the Biden plan heading in the article there's a paragraph that says the following: "And indeed, Mr. Biden has proposed doubling the income tax rate to 40% on capital gains for taxpayers with incomes over $1 million or more."
This statement came right after the article spoke of how Biden wants to repeal the step-up basis provision...
How can you keep posting "No exclusions"?
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,836
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Post by thebin on Aug 28, 2019 11:42:53 GMT -5
Joe Biden made the most incredible statement of the 2020 campaign this week when he endorsed the doubling of the capital gains tax to 39.9% from 20%. Can you imagine all the folks in their 50s who bought houses 20 years ago in say Woodlands Hills, CA, or Warren, NJ or Montgomery County PA that expected to pay 15, and at most 20% on their non-inflation adjusted gain after the capital gains exclusion of $500k ( if Biden keeps it, he had no exception statement in his interview) who will now find out that will be paying double the rate. I remember when Obama proposed taxing the appreciation of 529 plans for tuition and the firestorm that it set off in the suburbs, Jered Bernstein said that Democrats were "kicking the ball in their own goal" and the plan was soon scrapped. If Biden doesn't pull back on this and call it a gaffe he just gave Trump the toehold he needs to win the high end suburbs that he lost to Hillary in 2016. Trump winning “high end suburbs?” Not a chance in hell. Those places are full of highly educated people who are very much not in his wheelhouse.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 28, 2019 16:35:52 GMT -5
The front page article in today's WSJ in its section on Biden's proposals has no exclusions. It is a simple pure ending of the stepped upped basis upon death for all capital gains. So you own a house and die, whoever receives the property would need to pay the full capital gains rate on the house. This is a back door estate tax and a particularly cruel one in that there is no protective exclusion. The modern estate tax has always protected from 80 (in the 60s and 70s) to 98% of estates which this back door estate tax does not do. I speculate that once Bernie/Lizzie are put away he will pivot back. I am actually astonished at what I saw today. I took a trip to my local library this morning to read the WSJ article you referenced above... Under the Biden plan heading in the article there's a paragraph that says the following: "And indeed, Mr. Biden has proposed doubling the income tax rate to 40% on capital gains for taxpayers with incomes over $1 million or more."
This statement came right after the article spoke of how Biden wants to repeal the step-up basis provision...
How can you keep posting "No exclusions"? Please Note from the article and with a little help from the IRS tax tables:
1. There are no exclusions to the stepped up basis at death. All of the gain becomes taxable.
2. Death would be considered a realization event, triggering capital gains taxes on appreciated assets, paid at ordinary income tax rates. See the table under Biden.
3. Applying the oridinary income tax rates, the top rate of 39.9% over $1 million gets augmented to 45.3% to account for the medicare tax of 2.9% and the Obama care investmemt tax of 2.5% (which Joe is sure to keep). Thanks for keeping me on my toes! 4. Applying the ordinary income tax rates to the $408K joint filer breakpoint we come up with a 40.4% rate
5. Applying the ordinary tax rates to even the lowest joint filer breakpooint of $168k (which loses the Obama care and Medicare trip points depending on size of the gain, I am spotting you those dimunitions) we come up with 24%.
For a single person the break point is 84K
Think about it, one quarter of a lifetime's wealth accumulation from the capital gain gone for a lower middle class person making $84K.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 28, 2019 16:41:08 GMT -5
Joe Biden made the most incredible statement of the 2020 campaign this week when he endorsed the doubling of the capital gains tax to 39.9% from 20%. Can you imagine all the folks in their 50s who bought houses 20 years ago in say Woodlands Hills, CA, or Warren, NJ or Montgomery County PA that expected to pay 15, and at most 20% on their non-inflation adjusted gain after the capital gains exclusion of $500k ( if Biden keeps it, he had no exception statement in his interview) who will now find out that will be paying double the rate. I remember when Obama proposed taxing the appreciation of 529 plans for tuition and the firestorm that it set off in the suburbs, Jered Bernstein said that Democrats were "kicking the ball in their own goal" and the plan was soon scrapped. If Biden doesn't pull back on this and call it a gaffe he just gave Trump the toehold he needs to win the high end suburbs that he lost to Hillary in 2016. Trump winning “high end suburbs?” Not a chance in hell. Those places are full of highly educated people who are very much not in his wheelhouse. See my post above. I have confidence that these folks are highly educated enough to read a tax table and not commit financial suicide. Even if they are alive and the highly educateds just want to buy a new car or maybe a pizza with everything on it, their capital gains rate stands to go dramatically higher.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,198
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Post by hoya9797 on Aug 28, 2019 17:00:36 GMT -5
I took a trip to my local library this morning to read the WSJ article you referenced above... Under the Biden plan heading in the article there's a paragraph that says the following: "And indeed, Mr. Biden has proposed doubling the income tax rate to 40% on capital gains for taxpayers with incomes over $1 million or more."
This statement came right after the article spoke of how Biden wants to repeal the step-up basis provision...
How can you keep posting "No exclusions"? Please Note from the article and with a little help from the IRS tax tables:
1. There are no exclusions to the stepped up basis at death. All of the gain becomes taxable.
2. Death would be considered a realization event, triggering capital gains taxes on appreciated assets, paid at ordinary income tax rates. See the table under Biden.
3. Applying the oridinary income tax rates, the top rate of 39.9% over $1 million gets augmented to 45.3% to account for the medicare tax of 2.9% and the Obama care investmemt tax of 2.5% (which Joe is sure to keep). Thanks for keeping me on my toes! 4. Applying the ordinary income tax rates to the $408K joint filer breakpoint we come up with a 40.4% rate
5. Applying the ordinary tax rates to even the lowest joint filer breakpooint of $168k (which loses the Obama care and Medicare trip points depending on size of the gain, I am spotting you those dimunitions) we come up with 24%.
For a single person the break point is 84K
Think about it, one quarter of a lifetime's wealth accumulation from the capital gain gone for a lower middle class person making $84K.
yeah, but that person is dead so who cares? He certainly doesn't.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 28, 2019 17:12:12 GMT -5
See my second to last post above. I have confidence that these folks are highly educated enough to read a tax table and not commit financial suicide. Even if they are alive and are just selling some stock, the highly educateds want to buy a new car or maybe a pizza with everything on it, their capital gains rate stands to go dramatically higher.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,713
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 28, 2019 18:10:39 GMT -5
I took a trip to my local library this morning to read the WSJ article you referenced above... Under the Biden plan heading in the article there's a paragraph that says the following: "And indeed, Mr. Biden has proposed doubling the income tax rate to 40% on capital gains for taxpayers with incomes over $1 million or more."
This statement came right after the article spoke of how Biden wants to repeal the step-up basis provision...
How can you keep posting "No exclusions"? Please Note from the article and with a little help from the IRS tax tables:
1. There are no exclusions to the stepped up basis at death. All of the gain becomes taxable.
2. Death would be considered a realization event, triggering capital gains taxes on appreciated assets, paid at ordinary income tax rates. See the table under Biden.
3. Applying the oridinary income tax rates, the top rate of 39.9% over $1 million gets augmented to 45.3% to account for the medicare tax of 2.9% and the Obama care investmemt tax of 2.5% (which Joe is sure to keep). Thanks for keeping me on my toes! 4. Applying the ordinary income tax rates to the $408K joint filer breakpoint we come up with a 40.4% rate
5. Applying the ordinary tax rates to even the lowest joint filer breakpooint of $168k (which loses the Obama care and Medicare trip points depending on size of the gain, I am spotting you those dimunitions) we come up with 24%.
For a single person the break point is 84K
Think about it, one quarter of a lifetime's wealth accumulation from the capital gain gone for a lower middle class person making $84K.
1) Wait, so who are the folks "excluded" from the current capital gains law now? 2) The only folks that would pay at the "ordinary" income rates are those folks whose income exceeds 1 million dollars, everyone else would pay at the normal CG rates right? Btw did you notice the part of the article that stated how The Peterson Foundation invited deficit-reducing plans from outside groups, 3 conservative groups proposed either limiting or repealing the step-up basis tax?
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Aug 28, 2019 18:48:47 GMT -5
1) everyone in the second generation is excluded with stepped up basis until the estate tax kicks in at about $11 million, everyone in the first generation is shielded on property sales by the $250/500k exclusion.
2) no, see point 2.The wording is explicit.
3) I am not a Bush-Romney-Ryan "leveraged buyouts are good" austerity based conservative who believes that the National Debt in and of itself is a monster that will eat Pittsburgh tomorrow and Philadelphia in 2021. The Peterson Foundation is one of my mortal enemies, since they use the debt to justify both cutting benefits and raising taxes for middle and upper middle income people.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 29, 2019 9:16:10 GMT -5
1) everyone in the second generation is excluded with stepped up basis until the estate tax kicks in at about $11 million 2) no, see point 2. 3) I am not a Bush-Romney-Ryan "leveraged buyouts are good" austerity based Republican who believes that the National Debt in and of itself is a monster that will eat Pittsburgh tomorrow and Philadelphia in 2021. The Peterson Foundation is one of my mortal enemies, since they use the debt to justify both cutting benefits and raising taxes for middle and upper middle income people. How are you getting all of this information from that one article? Seems to me you're chasing in the same way you were when you accused the "democratic house" of hurting folks with the SECURE act bill only to find out it passed in an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote... What does the estate tax have to do with the stepped-up basis provision? I thought the stepped up provision shielded heirs from having to pay the appreciated value of assets that were left for them? It also allowed them to defer taxes for longer periods of time... Definitely correct me if I'm wrong with this, right now if someone who has an asset that was purchased for $100 and it's now worth $1000 could pass the asset to an heir without having to pay taxes on the $900 dollars of appreciation when they die. That's how the Stepped-up provision works basically right? Under Biden's proposal, once a person dies, they'd owe taxes on the appreciated amount of the asset on their final tax return... In both scenarios, under the Biden plan as long as the incomes are below 1 million dollars and the asset has been held for at least a year the tax rate will be the normal CG tax rates. If the income is over 1 million dollars then the portion of the asset that's over that amount will be taxed at 40%... Example - A home that's worth 1.25 million would have 1 million taxed @ 20% and then the 250K @ 40% What am I missing HH1979?
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