MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,419
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 16, 2019 7:51:13 GMT -5
Fact: when Big John wanted to shut an opponent down during AI’s final season, he would call on Toumu, Aw or Page. And who would know which of his guys were truly elite defenders more than him? Boubacar was one of the best defenders in Hoya history. I know he is not a favorite of yours MCI, but he is my second favorite Hoya ever after Charles Smith. I would take a Boubacar in every recruiting class. Amazing defender at 1-4 and excellent role player. I can understand your love for him considering his dominance in defense. I just could never get past his lack of explosive athleticism. He had no lift. And while his defense was necessary he serves as an example of the kind of players around Iverson who I felt wasn't a great fit for the ideal style of play on offense with a once-in-a-generation talent like AI. Othella was one of my all time faves but he wasn't a great fit with Allen. But he had been with the team already for two years and you couldn't kick him off the squad. Hell, I've written posts on this board about how JT used O the wrong way anyhow. Iverson needed elite run-jump athletes and guys who could shoot from long range, preferably guys who were strong on both counts. I make this case because Iverson's interior passing was never great but he excelled at the alley-loop lobs and kickouts to open shooters. There was never one player that AI found himself starting with during his two seasons that was a reliable mid range shooter let alone a long range sniper. Othella and Aw couldn't get up for lobs, not on the regular. They, JYD, Jahidi, Don Reid, Toumou weren't shooters. Page could hit shots but just not as often as you wanted. And outside of Butler whom only played a few games with Iverson, Page was the only dude outside of Iverson who could create for himself. Don't get me wrong; Iverson wasn't the ideal teammate and thus hurt the offense at times on his own. But despite all the eventual pros who came from those two seasons, Thompson had put together a core group of players who did not really mesh all that well in terms of skill and athleticism.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,991
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 16, 2019 8:04:10 GMT -5
Boubacar was one of the best defenders in Hoya history. I know he is not a favorite of yours MCI, but he is my second favorite Hoya ever after Charles Smith. I would take a Boubacar in every recruiting class. Amazing defender at 1-4 and excellent role player. I can understand your love for him considering his dominance in defense. I just could never get past his lack of explosive athleticism. He had no lift. And while his defense was necessary he serves as an example of the kind of players around Iverson who I felt wasn't a great fit for the ideal style of play on offense with a once-in-a-generation talent like AI. Othella was one of my all time faves but he wasn't a great fit with Allen. But he had been with the team already for two years and you couldn't kick him off the squad. Hell, I've written posts on this board about how JT used O the wrong way anyhow. Iverson needed elite run-jump athletes and guys who could shoot from long range, preferably guys who were strong on both counts. I make this case because Iverson's interior passing was never great but he excelled at the alley-loop lobs and kickouts to open shooters. There was never one player that AI found himself starting with during his two seasons that was a reliable mid range shooter let alone a long range sniper. Othella and Aw couldn't get up for lobs, not on the regular. They, JYD, Jahidi, Don Reid, Toumou weren't shooters. Page could hit shots but just not as often as you wanted. And outside of Butler whom only played a few games with Iverson, Page was the only dude outside of Iverson who could create for himself. Don't get me wrong; Iverson wasn't the ideal teammate and thus hurt the offense at times on his own. But despite all the eventual pros who came from those two seasons, Thompson had put together a core group of players who did not really mesh all that well in terms of skill and athleticism. 100% True....but in the circumstances Boubacar was a really interesting player who was fun to follow.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Aug 16, 2019 8:36:01 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....)
Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight.
To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout.
The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,258
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Post by prhoya on Aug 16, 2019 8:49:33 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight. To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout. The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together. Welcome aboard! Nice first post. I could see a "meaningful" defensive situation where the team needs a stop and Pat puts Allen and Jagan at the 1 & 2. Maybe, Pat wants to zone and uses his tall, mobile players with Allen or Gardner at the 1.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,991
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 16, 2019 8:53:59 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight. To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout. The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together. Based on what we saw in the Bahamas, I think Allen and Blair are more than serviceable, and I haven’t even brought in Mosely..
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,620
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 16, 2019 8:57:07 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) 485 - hey man, welcome. Good for you to register on the board and take part in the conversation. As a long time reader, you know what to expect from most of the posters, and who the exceptions might be. You certainly chose a great time to jump in the water, given the outlook for the 2019/20 Hoyas! We look forward to seeing you around.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 742
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Post by rhw485 on Aug 16, 2019 9:09:50 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight. To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout. The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together. Based on what we saw in the Bahamas, I think Allen and Blair are more than serviceable, and I haven’t even brought in Mosely.. Completely fair, and I'm hopeful we have more depth. As the competition picks up and the game is played more in the half court, I don't see them as shot creators, rather players that will look better when they're surrounded by either Mac or Akinjo to initiate the offense. I'm intrigued by Akinjo / Blair combinations (get as much 3 point shooting around your best facilitator) as well as Allen / Mac combos (Allen can help with ball handling responsibilities and can at least be enough of a spacing threat). And yes I don't know where Mosely fits but agree he deserves minutes somewhere.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,258
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Post by prhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:17:04 GMT -5
During the Pan Am Games, Cooley had four Providence players in his USA squad. The four looked pretty good and were tall for their positions. It made me curious about Providence's roster. Here's Providence projected starting five: Nate Watson 6'10 (Jr), David Duke 6'5" (So), AJ Reeves 6'6" (So), Alpha Diallo 6'7" (Sr), Emmitt Holt 6'7" (Gr). They are going to be tall, talented and experienced. With a certain mix of players, Pat can match that height and experience, and surpass it.
Btw, Cooley also got a superb grad scorer in 5'11" Pipkins. Providence is going to be a handful and they'll end up Top 5 BE. But that's for another thread... I'm curious to see how the BE does in the OOC before the carnage starts in January. We need as many BE teams as possible in the Top 25 before the BE season.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,746
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Post by blueandgray on Aug 16, 2019 9:27:06 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight. To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout. The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together. Great post!! You make a interesting comparison to Harden and Paul and how mgmt had to find a way to make them co-exist. Without mincing words, our staff has had to deal with similar challenges with Mackinjo....two alpha dogs who have literally gone at it with one another. To stick with the nba comparisons....one that I would say might be more applicable is how Doc Rivers and the Clippers used Lou Williams last year. Williams was arguably the best player on the team.....scored 20 a game, led the team in assists, and was main reason why the Clippers took the Warriors to a game 7 and that was with a healthy KD. While I know Ewing would likely never go with this approach.... it could be very effective.
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:31:41 GMT -5
First time poster / long time reader (long enough to get HiFi Gator references....) Reading the original poster comment over, and while I appreciate the thought process, it simply isn't realistic. If you're suggesting Mac is one of our best players (should finish game and average 28-32 min), then mathematically you have to start him. Otherwise you're suggesting he sits the first 4 minutes of each half and then basically has to play the rest of the game straight. To rephrase the question (and maybe this belongs in the lineup thread), should we play any meaningful minutes this year without either Mac or Akinjo on the floor? My answer would be no. And essentially that means you start them both, then stagger their breaks when you begin to sub. Ewing consistently played his starters the first 8 minutes of the game and then that leads to scenarios where you go entire 2nd unit together or only 1 starter. I'm curious to see if Ewing does subs earlier in game (after under 16min timeout) to have more balanced lineups throughout. The best comparison here is probably Rockets management of Paul / Harden. No, I'm not suggesting they're NBA players, but it's similar in terms of their structure to the Rockets (before they hated each other). You always had one on the court, and they started and finished games together. Great post!! You make a interesting comparison to Harden and Paul and how mgmt had to find a way to make them co-exist. Without mincing words, our staff has had to deal with similar challenges with Mackinjo....two alpha dogs who have literally gone at it with one another. To stick with the nba comparisons....one that I would say might be more applicable is how Doc Rivers and the Clippers used Lou Williams last year. Williams was arguably the best player on the team.....scored 20 a game, led the team in assists, and was main reason why the Clippers took the Warriors to a game 7 and that was with a healthy KD. While I know Ewing would likely never go with this approach.... it could be very effective. Have two Alpah dogs ever won an NCAA or NBA championship? Or is one Alpha dog always destined to leave? Does it have to be a Jordan and subservient Pippen type relationship to succeed. I'm trying to think of two ultra competitors on one basektball team. I think it happens in football alot more but that game has alot more players and a separation of offense from defense.
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hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
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Post by hoyainla on Aug 16, 2019 9:33:28 GMT -5
While yesterday turned out to be a bigger blowout than expected because a few Bahamian starters didn’t play the game was still more indicative of BE game. For the most part it was played in the half court. The bigs for the Bahamas stunk and that was where we killed them.
2 of their guards were respectable and we saw the results for Mac. Even with our D playing lights out he still got beat for multiple and 1 layups. His 3 point shot looked to be about the same as last year. He had his all world finishes at the rim a couple times as well. If he is the same player he was last year he isn’t even close to one of the best players on this team. He wasn’t last year either no matter how much people want to speak it into existence. This team has the parts to be special. This is no longer a we are building for the future so we need to get the guys that will be here experience.
In up tempo games Mac is going to get his. He’s going to get hot at times and we need to ride that wave when it happens. Pat has shown he will bench guys who aren’t performing although some guys got longer leashes in the past. If Pat does that this year with everyone starting with the same leash it will be interesting to see how it plays out for Mac.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,258
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Post by prhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:40:45 GMT -5
Great post!! You make a interesting comparison to Harden and Paul and how mgmt had to find a way to make them co-exist. Without mincing words, our staff has had to deal with similar challenges with Mackinjo....two alpha dogs who have literally gone at it with one another. To stick with the nba comparisons....one that I would say might be more applicable is how Doc Rivers and the Clippers used Lou Williams last year. Williams was arguably the best player on the team.....scored 20 a game, led the team in assists, and was main reason why the Clippers took the Warriors to a game 7 and that was with a healthy KD. While I know Ewing would likely never go with this approach.... it could be very effective. Have two Alpah dogs ever won an NCAA or NBA championship? Or is one Alpha dog always destined to leave? Does it have to be a Jordan and subservient Pippen type relationship to succeed. I'm trying to think of two ultra competitors on one basektball team. I think it happens in football alot more but that game has alot more players and a separation of offense from defense. That rule-violating Louisville championship '12-'13 team with Russ Smith and Peyton Siva, both at 6'0", and some other characters on that team...
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,991
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 16, 2019 9:43:22 GMT -5
I think they are all going to have to compete for minutes in practice....which is going to make the practices more competitive and potentially more productive. And if someone gets a knock or isn’t feeling it, there will be others who can slide right in.
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:43:33 GMT -5
Have two Alpah dogs ever won an NCAA or NBA championship? Or is one Alpha dog always destined to leave? Does it have to be a Jordan and subservient Pippen type relationship to succeed. I'm trying to think of two ultra competitors on one basektball team. I think it happens in football alot more but that game has alot more players and a separation of offense from defense. That rule-violating Louisville championship '12-'13 team with Russ Smith and Peyton Siva, both at 6'0", and some other characters on that team... I would say Fab Five Jalen & Chris Webber but they never won the big one.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,258
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Post by prhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:51:35 GMT -5
2 of their guards were respectable and we saw the results for Mac. Even with our D playing lights out he still got beat for multiple and 1 layups. His 3 point shot looked to be about the same as last year. He had his all world finishes at the rim a couple times as well. If he is the same player he was last year he isn’t even close to one of the best players on this team. He wasn’t last year either no matter how much people want to speak it into existence. This team has the parts to be special. This is no longer a we are building for the future so we need to get the guys that will be here experience. So last year you didn't see All-BE Frosh Mac play vs guards who were better than the 2 "respectable" Bahamian guards?
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 16, 2019 9:55:41 GMT -5
2 of their guards were respectable and we saw the results for Mac. Even with our D playing lights out he still got beat for multiple and 1 layups. His 3 point shot looked to be about the same as last year. He had his all world finishes at the rim a couple times as well. If he is the same player he was last year he isn’t even close to one of the best players on this team. He wasn’t last year either no matter how much people want to speak it into existence. This team has the parts to be special. This is no longer a we are building for the future so we need to get the guys that will be here experience. So last year you didn't see All-BE Frosh Mac play vs guards who were better than the 2 "respectable" Bahamian guards? That guy is always negative. I don't have to even read his posts to know what his opinion will be on anything Hoyas.
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 16, 2019 11:32:16 GMT -5
Have two Alpah dogs ever won an NCAA or NBA championship? Or is one Alpha dog always destined to leave? Does it have to be a Jordan and subservient Pippen type relationship to succeed. I'm trying to think of two ultra competitors on one basektball team. I think it happens in football alot more but that game has alot more players and a separation of offense from defense. Let's not forget Kobe and Shaq
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,746
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Post by blueandgray on Aug 16, 2019 11:59:24 GMT -5
Paul Pierce and KG. There are examples. However 2 guys at guard who love to have the ball in their hands will be a challenge. Its doable....but its a challenge. The better Blair plays the more relevant this discussion becomes. (also, its the off-season, and I have nothing better to do).
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Aug 16, 2019 12:16:25 GMT -5
2 of their guards were respectable and we saw the results for Mac. Even with our D playing lights out he still got beat for multiple and 1 layups. His 3 point shot looked to be about the same as last year. He had his all world finishes at the rim a couple times as well. If he is the same player he was last year he isn’t even close to one of the best players on this team. He wasn’t last year either no matter how much people want to speak it into existence. This team has the parts to be special. This is no longer a we are building for the future so we need to get the guys that will be here experience. So last year you didn't see All-BE Frosh Mac play vs guards who were better than the 2 "respectable" Bahamian guards? He definitely did but it wasn’t like the results were great. If people want to use the qualifier of he was good for a 3 star freshman than so be it. I am not even sure that was the case based on his minutes and usage. I don’t want to hear anymore about all-BE freshman team. It’s a usage award not an effectiveness award. It’s funny how quick people were to use that accolade for Jamorko and Juggy then that went by the wayside 1 year later. We don’t need Mac to be freshman good this year. We need him to be actually good. If he makes the jump then great. If not there are plenty of options. Mac looks like the best player on the floor at times and the worst at others. He’s pretty 1 dimensional so if he’s off he is a big negative. This is no longer a rebuild. The future is now.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Aug 16, 2019 12:17:25 GMT -5
So last year you didn't see All-BE Frosh Mac play vs guards who were better than the 2 "respectable" Bahamian guards? That guy is always negative. I don't have to even read his posts to know what his opinion will be on anything Hoyas. Yep always negative. I guess you don’t read the posts where I give players tons of credit for instance like Allen and Govan in this very one.
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