EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 15, 2019 13:13:12 GMT -5
I propose the students pledge X% of their income after graduation for Y years to finance this. If you really believe something, be willing to use your own money to support it.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Apr 15, 2019 13:30:11 GMT -5
I think this is quite a bit overstated. Why fault the students for at least attempting to correct something as fundamentally immoral as slavery? We fault the students because they are attacking the core principle of the Christian faith-that Jesus came to earth to eradicate Original sin writ large and all original sin(s) establishing a new faith based on forgiveness. The Incarnation of Christ, that we celebrate next week, was the greatest event of human history. If Georgetown no longer supports the core belief of the Christian Faith, it no longer has a purpose outside of pure vocationalism. It is only another secular enterprise giving support to the political corrections and viewpoints of the day. Worse yet, a previous poster states that Christians who follow the core precepts of the Christian faith "need to be eliminated ASAP" from Georgetown. This is a crisis and our President and Board of Directors are on the spot because we are all waiting to see whether they give institutional support to this.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 15, 2019 13:35:41 GMT -5
Awful lot of complaining about what other people are doing with their money to help other people.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 15, 2019 13:56:58 GMT -5
We fault the students because they are attacking the core principle of the Christian faith-that Jesus came to earth to eradicate Original sin writ large and all original sin(s) establishing a new faith based on forgiveness. The Incarnation of Christ, that we celebrate next week, was the greatest event of human history. If Georgetown no longer supports the core belief of the Christian Faith, it no longer has a purpose outside of pure vocationalism. It is only another secular enterprise giving support to the political corrections and viewpoints of the day. Worse yet, a previous poster states that Christians who follow the core precepts of the Christian faith "need to be eliminated ASAP" from Georgetown. This is a crisis and our President and Board of Directors are on the spot because we are all waiting to see whether they give institutional support to this. Original sin is not a thing. There was no resurrection. We need fewer people who believe this ancient superstitious nonsense.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Apr 15, 2019 16:09:38 GMT -5
We fault the students because they are attacking the core principle of the Christian faith-that Jesus came to earth to eradicate Original sin writ large and all original sin(s) establishing a new faith based on forgiveness. I'm sorry, I'm following most of the other arguments in this thread, but I am not following yours. I do not see the students wanting to make amends for the sins of the past as anti-Christian in any way. Actually, I see it very much in line with Jesuit teachings on morality and social justice. However, like EasyEd, I think it'd mean more if the students paid it out of their own pockets. It isn't a huge amount of money for each student, but collectively, it could amount to a lot. And mark me down as a millennial that enjoys this dialogue.
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Post by CountAardvark on Apr 15, 2019 16:57:36 GMT -5
I'm a student who proudly voted yes on this referendum. As students of Georgetown, we enjoy the benefits of a great institution that is only around at all because Jesuits sold slaves to pay off its debt. Our education is built on the backs of victims of one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Original sin, sins of the father, whatever, none of that is relevant. The fund is not predicated on us, the students, being guilty for the crimes of the Jesuits that came before us. It is predicated on us being inseparable from the suffering of those slaves. The impact of the sale is multi-generational and demands a long-overdue response.
I'm proud of our students for stepping up to the plate to do the right thing and confront this university's and, more broadly, this country's heinous past. The administration has proved INCAPABLE of making amends - hell, we had buildings on campus named after those that sold the slaves. Those names were only changed because of student lobbying. Our generation is the FIRST that is refusing to ignore the benefits of slavery we all share. We are pledging (by large majority) our own money to give financial aid to the still-impoverished descendants of those slaves who are suffering to this day from the structural injustices our society is built on. This is not a past problem. This is a present problem that we are trying to correct.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 15, 2019 17:50:24 GMT -5
I'm a student who proudly voted yes on this referendum. As students of Georgetown, we enjoy the benefits of a great institution that is only around at all because Jesuits sold slaves to pay off its debt. Our education is built on the backs of victims of one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Original sin, sins of the father, whatever, none of that is relevant. The fund is not predicated on us, the students, being guilty for the crimes of the Jesuits that came before us. It is predicated on us being inseparable from the suffering of those slaves. The impact of the sale is multi-generational and demands a long-overdue response. I'm proud of our students for stepping up to the plate to do the right thing and confront this university's and, more broadly, this country's heinous past. The administration has proved INCAPABLE of making amends - hell, we had buildings on campus named after those that sold the slaves. Those names were only changed because of student lobbying. Our generation is the FIRST that is refusing to ignore the benefits of slavery we all share. We are pledging (by large majority) our own money to give financial aid to the still-impoverished descendants of those slaves who are suffering to this day from the structural injustices our society is built on. This is not a past problem. This is a present problem that we are trying to correct. I am glad you feel good about yourself. I guess the opinions of those who feel differently don’t count. They will get socked for the same fee even if they oppose on some legitimate basis. Congrats on your brave decision to spend Mom and Dad’s money.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 15, 2019 17:57:29 GMT -5
Awful lot of complaining about what other people are doing with their money to help other people. 70% of it will be Mom and Dad’s money. As long as the children feel good about being morally superior, all will be well...
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Post by CountAardvark on Apr 15, 2019 18:07:30 GMT -5
I'm a student who proudly voted yes on this referendum. As students of Georgetown, we enjoy the benefits of a great institution that is only around at all because Jesuits sold slaves to pay off its debt. Our education is built on the backs of victims of one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Original sin, sins of the father, whatever, none of that is relevant. The fund is not predicated on us, the students, being guilty for the crimes of the Jesuits that came before us. It is predicated on us being inseparable from the suffering of those slaves. The impact of the sale is multi-generational and demands a long-overdue response. I'm proud of our students for stepping up to the plate to do the right thing and confront this university's and, more broadly, this country's heinous past. The administration has proved INCAPABLE of making amends - hell, we had buildings on campus named after those that sold the slaves. Those names were only changed because of student lobbying. Our generation is the FIRST that is refusing to ignore the benefits of slavery we all share. We are pledging (by large majority) our own money to give financial aid to the still-impoverished descendants of those slaves who are suffering to this day from the structural injustices our society is built on. This is not a past problem. This is a present problem that we are trying to correct. I am glad you feel good about yourself. I guess the opinions of those who feel differently don’t count. They will get socked for the same fee even if they oppose on some legitimate basis. Congrats on your brave decision to spend Mom and Dad’s money. I'm taking on an enormous amount of debt to be here, and the money I'll give will be part of that. I'd thank you to not make assumptions about who I am or where I come from. This about more than just us, and about more than feeling good about ourselves. This money will go on to lift up those that Georgetown abandoned - that's what matters here. The massive positive impact of this money is noticeably absent from the lopsided conversation on this board.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 15, 2019 19:04:28 GMT -5
Awful lot of complaining about what other people are doing with their money to help other people. 70% of it will be Mom and Dad’s money. 0% of it is your money, so I'm not sure why so many calories are being burnt on decrying this. I don't know enough about this to know who or how much this would help, but on the other side, I'm not sure who this really hurts.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 15, 2019 19:25:23 GMT -5
I'm a student who proudly voted yes on this referendum. As students of Georgetown, we enjoy the benefits of a great institution that is only around at all because Jesuits sold slaves to pay off its debt. Our education is built on the backs of victims of one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Original sin, sins of the father, whatever, none of that is relevant. The fund is not predicated on us, the students, being guilty for the crimes of the Jesuits that came before us. It is predicated on us being inseparable from the suffering of those slaves. The impact of the sale is multi-generational and demands a long-overdue response. I'm proud of our students for stepping up to the plate to do the right thing and confront this university's and, more broadly, this country's heinous past. The administration has proved INCAPABLE of making amends - hell, we had buildings on campus named after those that sold the slaves. Those names were only changed because of student lobbying. Our generation is the FIRST that is refusing to ignore the benefits of slavery we all share. We are pledging (by large majority) our own money to give financial aid to the still-impoverished descendants of those slaves who are suffering to this day from the structural injustices our society is built on. This is not a past problem. This is a present problem that we are trying to correct. Here we go again. Please, please, do your homework: 1. The slaves were not sold for debt, they were sold because Rome told them to. Pope Gregory XVI (who last I checked, did not have a dorm named after him by students) condemned the slave trade in the letter known as "In Supremo Apostolatus": "By the same Authority we prohibit and strictly forbid any ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this traffic in blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse, or from publishing or teaching in any manner whatsoever, in public or privately." 2. Less than 15% of the sale went to paying down a long term note--the exigency of the College was not in doubt. The remainder went to the Maryland province and to build additional colleges and high schools now known as Loyola and St. Joe's. Somehow, I don't see these schools rushing to this issue. 3. Hard as it is to believe, your generation is not the first to discover this story. 4. Finally, and this seems obvious, disbursements to fund student programs are not "our own money."
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 15, 2019 19:42:28 GMT -5
He condemned the slave trade but also ordered the Jesuits to sell slaves. That’s the kind of hypocrisy that defines the Catholic Church.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 15, 2019 19:48:58 GMT -5
He condemned the slave trade but also ordered the Jesuits to sell slaves. That’s the kind of hypocrisy that defines the Catholic Church. He didn't order the Jesuits, the Superior General made the decision. An apostolic letter is episcopal, not legal. Your animus towards the Church Militant is misplaced.
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tgo
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Post by tgo on Apr 15, 2019 19:49:31 GMT -5
I would love to know a couple of things that should have come up in the debate of this on campus but that I haven't seen reported yet.
Is there an expected standard to be used to verify that someone is descended from one of those 272 people?
What is the estimate on how many people are descended from this group and what is the estimate of how many of them will be able to prove it?
Assuming this fund is established and begins accruing $380K a year, how is that money to be spent? Scholarships? A monthly check/stipend?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 15, 2019 20:11:20 GMT -5
I am glad you feel good about yourself. I guess the opinions of those who feel differently don’t count. They will get socked for the same fee even if they oppose on some legitimate basis. Congrats on your brave decision to spend Mom and Dad’s money. I'm taking on an enormous amount of debt to be here, and the money I'll give will be part of that. I'd thank you to not make assumptions about who I am or where I come from. This about more than just us, and about more than feeling good about ourselves. This money will go on to lift up those that Georgetown abandoned - that's what matters here. The massive positive impact of this money is noticeably absent from the lopsided conversation on this board. Except, as DFW has pointed out repeatedly, Georgetown proper did no such thing. But why let a pesky fact interfere with Group-think Guilt... Party on children...
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 15, 2019 20:13:30 GMT -5
He condemned the slave trade but also ordered the Jesuits to sell slaves. That’s the kind of hypocrisy that defines the Catholic Church. He didn't order the Jesuits, the Superior General made the decision. An apostolic letter is episcopal, not legal. Your animus towards the Church Militant is misplaced. Splitting hairs and making excuses for horrible behavior - another hallmark of the church.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Apr 15, 2019 22:31:03 GMT -5
I would love to know a couple of things that should have come up in the debate of this on campus but that I haven't seen reported yet. Is there an expected standard to be used to verify that someone is descended from one of those 272 people? What is the estimate on how many people are descended from this group and what is the estimate of how many of them will be able to prove it? Assuming this fund is established and begins accruing $380K a year, how is that money to be spent? Scholarships? A monthly check/stipend? I think the student body will buy a banner with some of the funds to put on Dahlgren chapel saying "home of Ancient Superstitious Nonsense." Such is the Georgetown of 2019 and the spirit of tolerance that exists on campus.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 15, 2019 23:17:33 GMT -5
Civil libertarians might rightfully howl at such a proposal but at least our alma mater and its current students are attempting to address a clear historical injustice in a much more tangible way than the Harvards and Browns of the world. Right-wing pablum, posturing, sneering and stereotyping of students regarding what is evidently a preponderant opinion (2-1 vote) on campus to do something concrete does not further constructive dialogue in any way nor does it reflect well on those of us as alums who were either blithely ignorant of the history of this episode or chose to believe GU as an institution could somehow wash its hands of it. I choose to give credit to the administration and the students to reflect critically on the institution's heritage.... I guess I'm the civil libertarian in this argument. The issue I see with this is that, frankly, a lot of students at GU are "blithely ignorant of the history of this episode". This wasn't exactly breaking news in 2015--it was the subject of an alumni dinner five years earlier and was been variously reported in the HOYA dating back to the 1960's. Perhaps students weren't as politically enlightened then but it was understood in context of the Jesuits, the Catholic Church, and the antebellum South, something today's woke generation has no interest in reflecting upon because dialogue might as well be a four letter word in today's 24/7 world. It's easier for self-assign blame than to learn from the larger context. Should you get back for Reunion, let's continue the discussion over a Tombs burger. Maybe we can get Dr. LoPresti to weigh in on the Catholic ethics of manumission in 1830's Maryland... either that, or bemoan the Orioles' bullpen. Just because something is well-established in the historical record does not mean that it is known by most or even many. Certainly white Americans - and most Georgetown students and alumni fall into that category - have long demonstrated a remarkable ability to remain ignorant of the history and legacy of slavery, particularly as it intersects with their treasured institutions and individuals. I should know - I grew up in the Deep South. I would posit, though, that the point of inflection in this case was not that a certain critical mass of students learned of the history of the 272 and Georgetown's broader history with slavery, but rather the evolution of the dialogue around reparations more broadly. The attitude of "yep, sure, slavery was bad, but that was a long time ago, bygones!" that prevailed for many decades has been interrogated ever more forcefully over the past several years. Universities have found themselves in the spotlight here, not just because they often provide the space for challenges to the status quo in America, but also because many of them were around to benefit in the era of slavery. The implicated individuals are dead and, despite the strawmen some are trying to put up, there is no serious proposal to hold anyone responsible for the sins of their ancestors. Companies can last a long time, but even the ones that can trace their lineage back that far have all mutated in countless ways over the ages. Universities - and some established churches like the Catholic Church - are fairly unique in having maintained a strong, consistent institutional identity this entire time. This is one reason why I find misplaced this regular refrain that it was really the Maryland Province that was at fault, and the University blameless or nearly so. Let's use a modern analogy. If the top executives of Disney - who oh by the way regularly rotated through positions at ESPN - were to have willfully and knowingly committed immoral deeds* in order to pay off some debts of their wholly-owned subsidiary, as well as buttressing the overall financial position of The Mouse... would anyone be claiming that ESPN was a mere bystander? Institutions that claim the mantle of social justice and the betterment (much less salvation! a la inque hominum salutem) of humanity have a special responsibility to understand the ways in which they have benefited from injustices over the ages, directly or indirectly - as we all have. And in attaining that understanding, taking the next step and finding ways to make amends in some meaningful way. That Georgetown is at the forefront of this work among institutions in the United States is something to be proud of! Because it certainly will not be the last. -- *Mulledy's resignation as Maryland Provincial and his own reflections, such as his comment "no doubt I deserve it" about the opprobrium he was surely in for from his own fellow prelates, are strong evidence that he understood the wrongness of his actions. His failures include not just choosing sale down South over manumission, but also violating the various conditions Rome put on any sale (that families not be separated, that the money not be used to pay off debt or go to operating expenses, and that provisions be made for the religious practice of the slaves).
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 16, 2019 8:30:08 GMT -5
I would love to know a couple of things that should have come up in the debate of this on campus but that I haven't seen reported yet. Is there an expected standard to be used to verify that someone is descended from one of those 272 people? What is the estimate on how many people are descended from this group and what is the estimate of how many of them will be able to prove it? Assuming this fund is established and begins accruing $380K a year, how is that money to be spent? Scholarships? A monthly check/stipend? I think the student body will buy a banner with some of the funds to put on Dahlgren chapel saying "home of Ancient Superstitious Nonsense." Such is the Georgetown of 2019 and the spirit of tolerance that exists on campus. That’s a good idea. Anything that can get people thinking about how utterly stupid the whole thing is would be a positive step.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 17, 2019 7:36:17 GMT -5
I think the student body will buy a banner with some of the funds to put on Dahlgren chapel saying "home of Ancient Superstitious Nonsense." Such is the Georgetown of 2019 and the spirit of tolerance that exists on campus. That’s a good idea. Anything that can get people thinking about how utterly stupid the whole thing is would be a positive step. This is a sincere question. Given your well-stated antipathy toward religion and specifically Catholicism, why Georgetown?
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