eb59
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Post by eb59 on Sept 24, 2018 13:18:41 GMT -5
Interesting Read: www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2008/12/30/athletes-show-huge-gaps-in-sat-scoresSome highlights: - Football players average 220 points lower on the SAT than their classmates. Men's basketball was 227 points lower. - University of Florida won the prize for biggest gap between football players and the student body, with players scoring 346 points lower than their peers. - Georgia Tech had the nation's best average SAT score for football players, 1028 of a possible 1600, and best average high school GPA, 3.39 of a possible 4.0. But because its student body is apparently very smart, Tech's football players still scored 315 SAT points lower than their classmates. - UCLA, which has won more NCAA championships in all sports than any other school, had the biggest gap between the average SAT scores of athletes in all sports and its overall student body, at 247 points. - Schools with the highest admissions standards, such as Georgia Tech, the University of Virginia, the University of California-Berkeley, UCLA, and the University of North Carolina, had the biggest gaps between the SAT averages for athletes and the overall student body. At a glance, here are the top 10 highest and lowest schools based on the average SAT scores of football players (out of a maximum 1600 score): FOOTBALL SAT SCORES: THE TOP 10 School, Average Georgia Tech, 1028 Oregon State, 997 Michigan, 997 Virginia, 993 Purdue, 974 Indiana, 973 Hawaii, 968 California, 967 Colorado, 966 Iowa, 964 THE BOTTOM 10 School, Average Oklahoma State, 878 Louisville, 878 Memphis, 890 Florida, 890 Texas Tech, 901 Arkansas, 910 Texas A&M, 911 Mississippi State, 911 Washington State, 916 Michigan State, 917
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Sept 24, 2018 17:30:04 GMT -5
I can't speak for all of the schools you list, but as a Vanderbilt Law School graduate, I can tell you that Vandy is not a good comparison.
First, Vanderbilt is a member of the SEC, and it thus benefits from the huge TV deals that exist because networks want to air games featuring teams like Florida, Alabama, Auburn, and LSU. Vanderbilt didn't wake up one day and decide to build a program to get into the SEC. It's a founding member, going back to the days when college football looked much different, and it's been along for the SEC ride ever since. (Likewise, Duke has been in the ACC forever. Notre Dame is sui generis. Compare to Villanova, which has been building its football program to a consistent I-AA contender. That doesn't mean that they're ready for the ACC.)
Second, the overall athletics program at Vanderbilt is vastly different from that at Georgetown. Vanderbilt has six--count them, six--varsity men's sports. No soccer. No lacrosse. No swimming. Fielding a I-A football team at a school that size can mean sacrificing a lot of other sports.
Third, while I'm not expert in Title IX, I'm pretty sure you can't balance men's athletic scholarships with women's scholarships for band. It seems like creating a "sports are for boys, music is for girls" system would run exactly contrary to the entire purpose of Title IX. Moreover, while we're on the Vanderbilt example, I'll note that the Vandy marching band is filled out with a lot of students from other Nashville universities (e.g., Belmont, Lipscomb), because Vanderbilt simply doesn't have enough students who are able/willing to make up a band of the requisite size. So if beefing up the band is your goal, that might mean making major changes to the academic programs, to attract a lot more musicians, or borrowing them from GW, AU, etc.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2018 17:58:24 GMT -5
Agree with many of the he points above and wish Georgetown could really put together a marching band along the lines of Lehigh or Villanova.
So much of what defines the college football experience is utterly lacking at Cooper Field, beginning with music and pageantry. The fabric of the game is stitched with the great sights and sounds of the sport--"Script Ohio", the Aggie War Hymn, the Michigan fanfare, "Rocky Top" and the "Ramblin Wreck". And while I'm no fan of the Domers, their pre-game show is second to none.
Music majors? Just 1% of the band. The other 99% hold their own:
And compare that to the sad excuse for a band at Dartmouth where 16 people showed up to walk around in a circle for 10 minutes versus Georgetown. And we wonder why no one cares about these games anymore.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 24, 2018 18:59:52 GMT -5
Agree with the points and wish Georgetown could really put together a marching band along the lines of Lehigh or Villanova. So much of what defines the college football experience is utterly lacking at Cooper Field, beginning with music and pageantry. The fabric of the game is stitched with the great sights and sounds of the sport--"Script Ohio", the Aggie War Hymn, the Michigan fanfare, "Rocky Top" and the "Ramblin Wreck". And while I'm no fan of the Domers, their pre-game show is second to none. Music majors? Just 1% of the band. The other 99% hold their own: And compare that to the sad excuse for a band at Dartmouth where 16 people showed up to walk around in a circle for 10 minutes versus Georgetown. And we wonder why no one cares about these games anymore. Here's an old article written by a young Tom Boswell about small time college football. I went to every home football game 1973-77 as member of the band. We sometimes wore the old band uniforms while we did not march we sure did drink! Support for the band has always been marginal at best. We used to lobby Charlie Deacon to admit musicians who played certain instruments, i.e., Charlie, we need a tuba player for next year, etc... The crowd at Georgetown University captures the enthusiastic, yet amused, attitude of the small-college game when it exholts the Hoya defense with the chant: "Retard them, retard them. Make them relinquish the ball." Several GU players looked over their shoulders at the continuous party behind them, at the bizarre mock pop band full of self-professed loonies. "Do these people know what We're doing?" said the players' faces. www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1978/11/12/alternative-to-big-time-football-can-be-invigorating/4ba62cdc-678a-457a-a1eb-e2c544bf35a9/?utm_term=.e55c1f83f042
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2018 19:05:54 GMT -5
Second, the overall athletics program at Vanderbilt is vastly different from that at Georgetown. Vanderbilt has six--count them, six--varsity men's sports. No soccer. No lacrosse. No swimming. Fielding a I-A football team at a school that size can mean sacrificing a lot of other sports. Duke has 13 men's sports. Boston College has 12. As for Vanderbilt, the SEC doesn't sponsor soccer or lacrosse, so there's not as much interest in fielding a team when there is no prior tradition in those sports. Kids didn't grow up in Tuscaloosa or Athens kicking a soccer ball.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 24, 2018 21:35:08 GMT -5
As for Vanderbilt, the SEC doesn't sponsor soccer or lacrosse, so there's not as much interest in fielding a team when there is no prior tradition in those sports. Kids didn't grow up in Tuscaloosa or Athens kicking a soccer ball. Not yet...
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 25, 2018 5:58:06 GMT -5
As for Vanderbilt, the SEC doesn't sponsor soccer or lacrosse, so there's not as much interest in fielding a team when there is no prior tradition in those sports. Kids didn't grow up in Tuscaloosa or Athens kicking a soccer ball. Not yet... Predicting the arrival of soccer as the next big thing has been about as timely as those who predicted the U.S would join the metric system. It didn't happen with Pele and the NY Cosmos, it didn't happen in the World Cup, it didn't happen when David Beckham showed up in Los Angeles. As it stands in Division I, only two of the five major conferences (Big 10, ACC) sponsor men's soccer. Nine of 14 Big ten teams play, 12 of 15 in the ACC, half of the Pac-12, none of the SEC, none of the Big 12. Might be a place to start.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 25, 2018 7:00:39 GMT -5
Predicting the arrival of soccer as the next big thing has been about as timely as those who predicted the U.S would join the metric system. It didn't happen with Pele and the NY Cosmos, it didn't happen in the World Cup, it didn't happen when David Beckham showed up in Los Angeles. And once upon a time Coke cost 5 cents... It's a crowded sports landscape in the US, but soccer's progression is undeniable: edition.cnn.com/2018/07/20/sport/2026-world-cup-look-ahead-spt-intl/index.html
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Post by aleutianhoya on Sept 25, 2018 7:14:12 GMT -5
Predicting the arrival of soccer as the next big thing has been about as timely as those who predicted the U.S would join the metric system. It didn't happen with Pele and the NY Cosmos, it didn't happen in the World Cup, it didn't happen when David Beckham showed up in Los Angeles. As it stands in Division I, only two of the five major conferences (Big 10, ACC) sponsor men's soccer. Nine of 14 Big ten teams play, 12 of 15 in the ACC, half of the Pac-12, none of the SEC, none of the Big 12. Might be a place to start. I don't want to hijack the thread (although I think that's already happened), but it's a bit unfair and dated, DFW, to put down those who predict the "arrival" of soccer. It DID happen with the World Cup. MLS was founded immediately thereafter and has doubled in size since then (in terms of teams). Average attendance at games has gone from 15-18K to now being north of 20K. More fans come to see each game on average than come to the average NHL or NBA game. I recognize the other leagues play many more games and in smaller stadiums, but many of the soccer stadiums are no longer that much smaller. Television ratings aren't very good for sure. But the national cable ratings are less than 100K viewers worse than regular season national cable ratings for the NHL and MLB. The league no longer is a fledgling. A Georgetown student from most major metropolitan areas remembers no time when his city did not field an MLS franchise, as hard as that may be to believe. Will it ever be the NFL? Or FBS football? Of course not. But nothing else is. And, of course, it's not just about MLS. NBCSN's coverage of the English Premier League (despite the challenges of time zones) drew more average fans per game than did its regular season NHL coverage. As for college? Last I checked, the Pac-12 did sponsor men's soccer (albeit with an affiliate member). Yes, it's an under-represented sport at the FBS level. But there's no comparison between it and, say, lacrosse or hockey, which are sponsored by something like 33% as many D-1 schools.
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Post by reformation on Sept 25, 2018 10:29:26 GMT -5
Back to the comparison with Vandy or other non ivy top academic schools that also have big time sports(Vandy, NW, Stan, Duke). Those schools all take a more business oriented approach, i.e., they select the sports where they feel that they have a natural competitive advantage, however defined, and invest in those sports to try to have an excellent program. Performance benchmarks are pretty well defined and coaches etc have some degree of real accountability. Those schools approach works more often than not, but obviously not all the time as they are generally competing vs equally resourced programs with less academic restrictions.
Gtwn does not really take a business/strategic approach to the same degree. With football especially Gtwn seems content to have a presence in the sport loosely tied to the ivies. Gtwn is more or less content to have a presence in a lot of sports without really focusing on having excellent programs except for maybe mens bball and track to some extent. The success of soccer I think is largely coach driven, hard to say whether good results will continue if the coaches leave.
The approach to athletics is pretty much the same in the academic side of the univ. Gtwn generally doesn't make strategic resource bets the way the other schools listed above do to make a particular academic dept "top 10" for instance.-I know someone can point to an occasional exception like "security studies", but that is a nice exception to the rule rather than the norm. Gtwn is happy to have very good but not great academics and brand itself as focusing on the "cura personalis". Obviously the univ and its graduates are generally successful: flip side is a lot of programs are mediocre and direction not too clear. General feeling that we underperform our potential.
Football I think is in a particularly tough position competitively. It would be a lot easier to elevate other programs where we have a presence but really could be elite than football. I thought the idea of recruiting kids who would get full need packages was an interesting out of the box thought, not sure its really practical. My only hope is that the univ someday adopts a more strategic approach to these issues-I would suspect that once Jack D retires, if a real outsider is brought in, we might see a meaningful change. Obviously the current situation is not good and is unlikely to change.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Sept 25, 2018 12:06:45 GMT -5
With other sports, I think the school has historically taken a fairly strategic approach, though an unconventional one and one that reasonably people could conclude isn't ideal.
Essentially, it has committed to do all that it can to be as successful as possible in men's basketball. We can disagree about the specific tactics used and decisions made in terms of hirings, firings, etc. But I think it's commitment is there. And it takes precedence basically over any other athletic endeavor.
Next, it has committed to provide sufficient resources to compete at a national level in a limited number of programs. The lacrosses. The soccers. Distance running. It may not fund the maximum number of scholarships in all of these sports, but it funds what it views as a truly competitive number. And it makes hiring and firing decisions, sets budgets, and encourages facility improvements according to a goal of competing for championships. It's not going to spend crazy amounts like it may do in basketball to try to win at truly all costs, and that other schools may do in these sports, but it does prioritize winning.
Next, it's made investments in the requisite number of women's sports essentially because it's had to. Volleyball, for example, has some scholarship support, but I don't think anyone has ever been under the impression that the school really truly wants to win there. Title IX dictates the investment.
Finally, and unlike many schools, it has committed to sponsor a full panoply of intercollegiate sports, prioritizing participation over championships with all sports but those mentioned above. These are what used to be referred to as the "local" sports. That is, in itself, a strategic decision. Sure, it could simply cut men's swimming, baseball, etc entirely and use the money to improve, say, volleyball, or provide a bit more resource to a lacrosse or a soccer in a way that may put them over the top. That's what your typical SEC school would do.
Football is in an impossible spot. You can't cut women's sports. If you made the strategic decision to cut a bunch of the "local" men's sports, it's not clear that the cost savings would alone be sufficient to make a meaningful difference, given the huge expenses involved in football that aren't involved in many other sports. And it wouldn't appear to make much strategic sense to cut funding for soccer/lacrosse/etc. to benefit football.
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Post by dundermifflinhoya on Sept 26, 2018 11:02:47 GMT -5
I thought the idea of recruiting kids who would get full need packages was an interesting out of the box thought, not sure its really practical. From what I understand of football recruiting, the team is limited to recruiting two classification of athletes: those whose family can afford full tuition and those who qualify for full federal financial aid. The middle of the road athlete cannot justify paying tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket when they can now receive a scholarship from a patriot league school or a full grant from an Ivy League school. The NJ-PA-MD-VA kids were in Georgetowns wheel house, but we are no longer competitive on financial grounds. Coaches are now forced to the southeast and Texas to find kinds in economic classes that make attending Georgetown feasible. There are situations where we have to reach on athletes Based on the cost of attendance.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 26, 2018 12:16:39 GMT -5
The middle of the road athlete cannot justify paying tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket when they can now receive a scholarship from a patriot league school or a full grant from an Ivy League school. The NJ-PA-MD-VA kids were in Georgetown's wheel house, but we are no longer competitive on financial grounds. Coaches are now forced to the southeast and Texas to find kinds in economic classes that make attending Georgetown feasible. Another factor? Former non-scholarship programs like Duquesne, Wagner, Robert Morris, St. Francis and the like are now offering up to 40 scholarships each, which adds more to what's out there. Not every one of these recruits is looking at schools like Georgetown, but if they pick off one or two a year, that's what counts. FWIW, former MAAC opponent Duquesne got a $200,000 guarantee (plus free airfare and hotel for 100 players and staff) to play a game at Hawaii last week because they had the scholarships. (Final: a respectable 42-21.) They go back to Hawaii in 2022 and have scheduled Charlotte in 2021 and West Virginia in 2023, and that sells for recruits, as opposed to, well...Marist. But as it relates to recruiting, the geographic changes in the Georgetown roster over the last 20 years are striking. In 1998, 42 players on the roster were from NY or NJ. In 2008, 22. In 2018? Eight.
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Post by dundermifflinhoya on Sept 26, 2018 12:48:09 GMT -5
The middle of the road athlete cannot justify paying tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket when they can now receive a scholarship from a patriot league school or a full grant from an Ivy League school. The NJ-PA-MD-VA kids were in Georgetown's wheel house, but we are no longer competitive on financial grounds. Coaches are now forced to the southeast and Texas to find kinds in economic classes that make attending Georgetown feasible. Another factor? Former non-scholarship programs like Duquesne, Wagner, Robert Morris, St. Francis and the like are now offering up to 40 scholarships each, which adds more to what's out there. Not every one of these recruits is looking at schools like Georgetown, but if they pick off one or two a year, that's what counts. FWIW, former MAAC opponent Duquesne got a $200,000 guarantee (plus free airfare and hotel for 100 players and staff) to play a game at Hawaii last week because they had the scholarships. (Final: a respectable 42-21.) They go back to Hawaii in 2022 and have scheduled Charlotte in 2021 and West Virginia in 2023, and that sells for recruits, as opposed to, well...Marist. But as it relates to recruiting, the geographic changes in the Georgetown roster over the last 20 years are striking. In 1998, 42 players on the roster were from NY or NJ. In 2008, 22. In 2018? Eight. This comment goes back to the beginning of the thread, but we cannot ignore the impact of the academic Index. Although those 42 kids in 1998 from NY/NJ graduated and performed well enough academically, their high schools records would have left them falling short on the Patriots academic index requirements to gain admission
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 26, 2018 15:57:32 GMT -5
Another factor? Former non-scholarship programs like Duquesne, Wagner, Robert Morris, St. Francis and the like are now offering up to 40 scholarships each, which adds more to what's out there. Not every one of these recruits is looking at schools like Georgetown, but if they pick off one or two a year, that's what counts. FWIW, former MAAC opponent Duquesne got a $200,000 guarantee (plus free airfare and hotel for 100 players and staff) to play a game at Hawaii last week because they had the scholarships. (Final: a respectable 42-21.) They go back to Hawaii in 2022 and have scheduled Charlotte in 2021 and West Virginia in 2023, and that sells for recruits, as opposed to, well...Marist. But as it relates to recruiting, the geographic changes in the Georgetown roster over the last 20 years are striking. In 1998, 42 players on the roster were from NY or NJ. In 2008, 22. In 2018? Eight. This comment goes back to the beginning of the thread, but we cannot ignore the impact of the academic Index. Although those 42 kids in 1998 from NY/NJ graduated and performed well enough academically, their high schools records would have left them falling short on the Patriots academic index requirements to gain admission Still doesn't matter. Get rid of the index and the school still has the money problem relative to our competitors. Deal with the money problem by only recruiting kids who qualify for full federal aid and you have an admissions issue, overall.
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Post by dundermifflinhoya on Sept 27, 2018 12:30:52 GMT -5
This comment goes back to the beginning of the thread, but we cannot ignore the impact of the academic Index. Although those 42 kids in 1998 from NY/NJ graduated and performed well enough academically, their high schools records would have left them falling short on the Patriots academic index requirements to gain admission Still doesn't matter. Get rid of the index and the school still has the money problem relative to our competitors. Deal with the money problem by only recruiting kids who qualify for full federal aid and you have an admissions issue, overall. Largely true; but if you got rid of the AI, you would increase the pool of candidates that could be recruited. That would result in less reaches and a more balanced roster.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 28, 2018 0:27:43 GMT -5
As it stands in Division I, only two of the five major conferences (Big 10, ACC) sponsor men's soccer. Nine of 14 Big ten teams play, 12 of 15 in the ACC, half of the Pac-12, none of the SEC, none of the Big 12. Might be a place to start. Did Kentucky finally get kicked out of the SEC? Because last I checked, they're ranked in the top 10 in the nation in men's soccer... Vandy also used to have a team (see, e.g., 247sports.com/college/vanderbilt/Article/Mens-Soccer-disbanding-causes-outcry-104290941/)West Virginia is, absurdly, now a Big 12 school, so that conference isn't an "oh-for" either The approach to athletics is pretty much the same in the academic side of the univ. Gtwn generally doesn't make strategic resource bets the way the other schools listed above do to make a particular academic dept "top 10" for instance.-I know someone can point to an occasional exception like "security studies", but that is a nice exception to the rule rather than the norm. Gtwn is happy to have very good but not great academics and brand itself as focusing on the "cura personalis". Obviously the univ and its graduates are generally successful: flip side is a lot of programs are mediocre and direction not too clear. General feeling that we underperform our potential. I find this line of argument bizarre. Within the admissions world, Georgetown is well-known for punching far above its weight class, not only in terms of its far inferior endowment but also in terms of its US News ranking. In academia more broadly, it is of course very discipline-by-discipline, but security studies is hardly a unique case... and I say that as someone who has a master's from SSP and worked for the program for almost 4 years! For example, International relations as a whole has Georgetown fourth for undergrads and #1 for those looking for a policy career in IR. The BSN program - a niche, but an exceptionally important one for the good of our country - is ranked #7 on one list, above Duke and Johns Hopkins. At an all-encompassing level, though, ascent in departmental rankings generally requires either being a state flagship university or an extremely wealthy private school to sustain large numbers of faculty, doctoral students, etc. Here, again, Georgetown is largely punching above its weight class.
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eb59
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Post by eb59 on Sept 28, 2018 8:51:18 GMT -5
None of the above helps us recruit better, compete more and WIN in Football....and in regard to the comments about geographic changes to recruiting at Gtown above - I don't see this as a bad thing, I think we should get as many kids from TX and FL/GA as is possible, the Coaching Level and Competition level in these states are incredible and kids are much more ready to play earlier at the next level in my opinion than from anywhere in the North East (Especially MDDCVA) which for some Odd Reason we seem to want to pull kids from!
It seems to me that the only way Gtown has any chance of competing long term is to find a way to get 40-60 Scholarships, but it also seems to me based on most of the feedback this will never happen until we have a New President of The University and even then it is going to take a special kind of a New President (one that has the mindset the Athletics have a positive impact on the Brand of the University) and is willing to make significant changes and significant investments in this new approach. I can only hope this type of person takes the reigns in a few years!
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 28, 2018 22:55:29 GMT -5
None of the above helps us recruit better, compete more and WIN in Football....and in regard to the comments about geographic changes to recruiting at Gtown above - I don't see this as a bad thing, I think we should get as many kids from TX and FL/GA as is possible, the Coaching Level and Competition level in these states are incredible and kids are much more ready to play earlier at the next level in my opinion than from anywhere in the North East (Especially MDDCVA) which for some Odd Reason we seem to want to pull kids from! It seems to me that the only way Gtown has any chance of competing long term is to find a way to get 40-60 Scholarships, but it also seems to me based on most of the feedback this will never happen until we have a New President of The University and even then it is going to take a special kind of a New President (one that has the mindset the Athletics have a positive impact on the Brand of the University) and is willing to make significant changes and significant investments in this new approach. I can only hope this type of person takes the reigns in a few years! Lol...buddy, this is not a Jack DeGoia problem. No one at this school is funding 60 scholarships. Nick Saban could become the president of the school and we're not funding 60 scholarships.
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Post by reformation on Sept 29, 2018 8:36:07 GMT -5
POD-You are right; 60 scholarships is not going to happen. Not that it would ever happen but it would be pretty interesting to see Nick Saban as next president of Gtwn. probably worth a thread on its own, not here, who should be next pres of Gtwn when Jack D retires
eb59-you are also right that we're kind of pushing things around at the margin
Russky-you are right that most admissions pro's think gtown punches above its weight in admissions, but I would think you find very few who think we punch above our weight in the actual academic complex. Most academics who know enough to have any real view would probably say we should have top 10ish depts in econ, govt, history + a few others given its unique location+ most view that the undergrad program in general has some interesting programs but is not really at the top level of academic rigor. I agree that resources are the major limiting factor but bad strategy has also played a significant role: think about this real example-in the 90's _early 2000's a number of leading faculty(i could let you know the profs were privately-they are still at the univ) proposed that Gtwn develop world class depts in stats, computer science and applied math. The logic being that we don't have the physical resources to have leading physical science debts, which are not necessary for the depts mentioned. Also the stats etc would have major spillover effects for econ govt etc. Instead gtown admin rejected this and prioritized the performing arts center and science center from a fund raising and strategic focus. Obviously we are way behind in these cutting edge fields and it is very expensive to catch up. The lack of strategic thinking permeates much more than this, but I thought that was a particularly instructive example that was actually debated and could have been actually implemented.
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