the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 19, 2018 21:49:31 GMT -5
Who are the better teams defensively and what do they run? What type of players do they recruit? Bonus Question: Why is Boheim's Zone so effective?
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Mar 19, 2018 22:11:26 GMT -5
Who are the better teams defensively and what do they run? What type of players do they recruit? Bonus Question: Why is Boheim's Zone so effective? Watching the Tourney: - Texas A&M is really good defensively with a 2-3 zone, but run it very aggressively with a lot of contact, communication, and really good switching with few errors (a better version of the Syracuse 2-3) - Syracuse run the 2-3 zone, nearly aggressively as TA&M, but that hole in the middle around the free throw line is often there (one of the usual holes in the 2-3) and they don't cover deep shooters out beyond the 3 arc aggressively (another way to beat the 2-3), Syracuse is also long and athletic which helps with close outs - I was really impressed with UMBC, which runs a heavy contact man where the deep shooters are covered very tightly (less than bent arm length) so there is no room to get up a shot, let alone breathe - Nevada also runs a very active harassing defense - Villanova runs a man, with a lot of "blitz and switch" where defenders trap or press if the ball is brought toward a defender (dribble attack), the 2nd defender isn't there to foul or steal, but deflect and cause a error they are there to cut off any lane to drive or pass, then the ball is away, they also play tight on deep shooters
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Mar 19, 2018 22:15:55 GMT -5
Who are the better teams defensively and what do they run? What type of players do they recruit? Bonus Question: Why is Boheim's Zone so effective? The player type across the defenses that stand out is they are all athletic, quick, have stamina, willing to commit to defense, all are good defending with their feet, and communicate. Of the defenses that stand out in the Tourney none of them have a traditional big man. Many of the wings defend the middle with length and defending above the rim. Texas Mo Bamba is a good middle defender, but the rest of Texas defense didn't really stand out.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 19, 2018 23:26:34 GMT -5
Who are the better teams defensively and what do they run? What type of players do they recruit? Bonus Question: Why is Boheim's Zone so effective? The player type across the defenses that stand out is they are all athletic, quick, have stamina, willing to commit to defense, all are good defending with their feet, and communicate. Of the defenses that stand out in the Tourney none of them have a traditional big man. Many of the wings defend the middle with length and defending above the rim. Texas Mo Bamba is a good middle defender, but the rest of Texas defense didn't really stand out. What do you mean by traditional big man? 'Cuse has 2 guys in the middle, 6'10 and 7'2, respectively. Both not bulky size, but the height of a big man.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Mar 19, 2018 23:40:45 GMT -5
The player type across the defenses that stand out is they are all athletic, quick, have stamina, willing to commit to defense, all are good defending with their feet, and communicate. Of the defenses that stand out in the Tourney none of them have a traditional big man. Many of the wings defend the middle with length and defending above the rim. Texas Mo Bamba is a good middle defender, but the rest of Texas defense didn't really stand out. What do you mean by traditional big man? 'Cuse has 2 guys in the middle, 6'10 and 7'2, respectively. Both not bulky size, but the height of a big man. I was thinking the mid-majors who defend well, but lack bigs. Nova also lacks a traditional big. I know Syracuse has bigs. In watching Texas A&M they didn’t seem to have a stand out big, but played a more aggressive 2-3 than Syracuse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 23:58:38 GMT -5
The problem is that - in the college game today - taking a charge is considered a good defensive play. Which is absurd, because the moment you commit to trying to take a charge, you’ve actually stopped playing defense because you’re on the floor.
By the way, I appreciate that I don’t see a single reference to taking charges in this thread so far. Shows me that we have fans who actually appreciate people playing defense and not falling down looking for a call from the refs.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Mar 20, 2018 3:49:10 GMT -5
The problem is that - in the college game today - taking a charge is considered a good defensive play. Which is absurd, because the moment you commit to trying to take a charge, you’ve actually stopped playing defense because you’re on the floor. By the way, I appreciate that I don’t see a single reference to taking charges in this thread so far. Shows me that we have fans who actually appreciate people playing defense and not falling down looking for a call from the refs. Gene Smith was a ball hawk, tremendous footwork, quick hands, and also took a ton of charges. As long as it's part of your whole defensive package, it certainly is a an aspect of a good defender. If all you do is run in front of people and flop, and then get 50% of the calls, well, then I agree with you.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 20, 2018 6:45:23 GMT -5
Another point to add in. Frequently, a great defensive player is able to disrupt and take away what an opposing offense/player wants to do with one of more of the following height, length, quickness, energy, and hustle.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 20, 2018 6:47:51 GMT -5
One of the few things I admire about Syracuse is their ‘burn the boat’ mentality with the 2-3 zone. It is not an option. It is who they are and who they have been for as long as I can remember. That kind of commitment is impressive.
That defense has played a role in their winning a ton of games - especially in tournament with limited time to prepare.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 20, 2018 6:52:17 GMT -5
The problem is that - in the college game today - taking a charge is considered a good defensive play. Which is absurd, because the moment you commit to trying to take a charge, you’ve actually stopped playing defense because you’re on the floor. By the way, I appreciate that I don’t see a single reference to taking charges in this thread so far. Shows me that we have fans who actually appreciate people playing defense and not falling down looking for a call from the refs. As someone who grew up playing hockey, it still boggles my mind that standing in place and getting knocked on your ass is considered a good defensive play in basketball.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 20, 2018 11:16:20 GMT -5
Syracuse's zone is only good when they are tall and long. Then it is tough to penetrate. Zones work really well in college because a) there's conferences that have almost no teams playing zone (Syracuse won in 2003 because they played a whole bunch of Big XII teams in a year when no Big XII teams played zone), b) the shooting isn't always good enough to shoot over them and c) it can absolutely shut down drives to the hoop.
It takes away the middle. When they aren't long, a good team can pick it apart with ball rotation. When they are long, those passing lanes are much smaller and closeouts more effective.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 20, 2018 11:20:52 GMT -5
I always thought that the way to play under man to man defenses was to deny the ball to the player you were guarding. At GU I played intramural ball like that. We never played zone, so I always made sure that I denied my man the ball. Footwork and quickness helped attain this goal. Straight man to man is dead. It's almost impossible to play this level of pressure defense these days, between the back cuts and improved athleticism of the players, increased perimeter foul calling and handchecking calls and the loosened travel/carrying guidelines. Guards with the ball especially have the advantage now, and even if college, there's few situations where a top notch defender can keep a top notch penetrator in front of him consistently. Add in the prevalence of pick and roll, and while the ability to stay in front of your man (or deny) in a one on one setting is still fundamental, it isn't enough. Understanding help defense and rotations is absolutely necessary. The idea that you are only guarding your man is long gone.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 20, 2018 11:30:54 GMT -5
I always thought that the way to play under man to man defenses was to deny the ball to the player you were guarding. At GU I played intramural ball like that. We never played zone, so I always made sure that I denied my man the ball. Footwork and quickness helped attain this goal. Straight man to man is dead. It's almost impossible to play this level of pressure defense these days, between the back cuts and improved athleticism of the players, increased perimeter foul calling and handchecking calls and the loosened travel/carrying guidelines. Guards with the ball especially have the advantage now, and even if college, there's few situations where a top notch defender can keep a top notch penetrator in front of him consistently. Add in the prevalence of pick and roll, and while the ability to stay in front of your man (or deny) in a one on one setting is still fundamental, it isn't enough. Understanding help defense and rotations is absolutely necessary. The idea that you are only guarding your man is long gone. This. Offense is desired and promoted and more marketable for TV. Rule changes have changed college and the NBA. Georgetown of the 80's, and the Pat Riley days of the NBA are long gone. Plus with the 3-pt shot being so prominent, it has also changed the game.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Mar 20, 2018 12:53:31 GMT -5
My guess is we start seeing a lot of zone defense next year. The movement has started already. It used to be harder to prevent open outside shots playing a zone D. But now that the rules favor quick guards/dribble penetration offense - it seems that teams get more wide open looks from 3 vs. man defenses that don't handle the Pick and Roll defensive rotations well than they do against a zone.
The Pack Line D seems like a kind of man/zone hybrid where each defender is plays their man while also being in position to colllapse into the lane. Between the success of 2-3 zones and the Pack Line this year (and in recent years, for the Pack Line), and the struggles so many teams have in playing straight man defense - I'll be surprised if we don't see a lot less straight man defense next season.
It will be interesting to see what Ewing does. We have a guy who can teach the 2-3 zone (Orr - he was a Syracuse assistant when Boeheim went pure zone). With a center who struggles in man defense, and probably a lot of length next year (Govan, Derrickson , LeBlanc, Johnson and Pickett all have good length, it might be time to start playing a lot more zone.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 20, 2018 17:58:08 GMT -5
My guess is we start seeing a lot of zone defense next year. The movement has started already. It used to be harder to prevent open outside shots playing a zone D. But now that the rules favor quick guards/dribble penetration offense - it seems that teams get more wide open looks from 3 vs. man defenses that don't handle the Pick and Roll defensive rotations well than they do against a zone. The Pack Line D seems like a kind of man/zone hybrid where each defender is plays their man while also being in position to colllapse into the lane. Between the success of 2-3 zones and the Pack Line this year (and in recent years, for the Pack Line), and the struggles so many teams have in playing straight man defense - I'll be surprised if we don't see a lot less straight man defense next season. It will be interesting to see what Ewing does. We have a guy who can teach the 2-3 zone (Orr - he was a Syracuse assistant when Boeheim went pure zone). With a center who struggles in man defense, and probably a lot of length next year (Govan, Derrickson , LeBlanc, Johnson and Pickett all have good length, it might be time to start playing a lot more zone. Duke zoneDuke has used zone defense as its primary defense since its Feb. 18 game against Clemson. It has helped catapult the Blue Devils to a top-10 ranked defense in the country. Since Duke went zone nine games ago, it hasn't given up more than 74 points in a game. When Duke played Syracuse earlier this season on Feb. 24, Duke played zone the entire game.
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Historically, Krzyzewski-coached teams have run a man-to-man defense. But Duke's man defense has not been as effective as its zone. At times early in the season, it was bad.
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