PE Coaching Trends/Growth

[smokeyjack]

OK, that’s the second game against real opponents where we have blown a huge lead and totally lost our offensive identity in crunch time. Those things in general, and absolutely in these specific games, are usually indicative of poor coaching.

Our inability to adjust to SU press and specifically to pounce on the ball after Orange baskets and put it in play immediately cost us that game in my opinion. That was pathetic.

Over basically entire second half against Butler, we settled for terrible shots, stopped boxing out (which was brilliant if first half), played with extremely young and odd floor groupings, abandoned our bigs, and treated possession after possession like time kill situations. All while Ewing seemed fairly passive and uncertain on sidelines.

This is a young team in many ways, and certainly not Pat’s team from a personnel standpoint, but the disparity between halves in both games is highly disturbing, because these guys can play at a reasonably high level. Will they grow up and learn to win? Will someone on the floor start to take charge when things start to stagnate - both Blair and Mulmore tried to force that last night.

Is Ewing intentionally letting them figure it out and flounder through the process? Or do some of those pathetic plays and late-game swoons demonstrate Pat’s deficiencies? Maybe too early to tell, but it’s not looking hopeful in my opinion. PE has to at least try to coach up some answers instead of watching them bleed out on the floor.

It’s really odd, because in some respects we are way ahead of schedule on the rebuild and have looked great at times. And that’s not just making shots. We boxed out as a team as well as I’ve seen any GU team do it in a decade in the first half last night...and then just totally reverted to trash ball on both ends in the second half. Young team. Inexperienced coach. When it comes to stopping momentum and end-of-game stuff, Ewing has got to get some help.

These things happen without lead guards. And we don’t have a true point with any experience seeing out games nor a head coach who was a lead guard.

But the fact remains that PE has coached two meaningful games ...and those two games have resulted in two of the 5 worst collapses of the last decade. Uggggh.

[aristides]

Alternatively, Ewing could be coaching well for getting a rebuilding team with significant deficits to compete and be a point away from winning against teams like Butler and Syracuse. With such a short bench and a lot of freshman, these types of results aren't surprising. I'm optimistic, though that loss was heartbreaking.

[smokeyjack]

I’ll buy a lot relative to optimism, but I’m not buying the “we were one point short” argument on games where we had a 18-pt lead at half and 13-pt lead with 6:00. Those are epic collapses, which are almost always indicative of coaching shortcomings.

And statistically, we are more mature than Syracuse and way deeper than Butler. Results are disastrous by any account. Only silver lining was two splendid first halves...which also confuses the thread by suggesting the team is really pretty good.

Issue to me is still complete lack of a lead guard. Jagan doesn’t have handles, so it’s Mulmore, Blair or bust this season.

[justsaying]

Usually I try to stay away from comments of complaints. PE team is literally two plays away from 12 - 0. Mind you we can discuss some of the 10 wins as good or bad. A coach's job is to give his team a chance to win if at all possible. I think that was accomplished. A coach can’t call a timeout while a rebound is in the air and call his team to the side line and remind them to box out and then send them back on the floor restart the action so when the ball come down we have a good chance to get it. The whole purpose of coaching a team up is to get to the point where the young men involved can do it consistently for the length of the game. That is player and game development and that does not happen after a few games. Once the game got to overtime most coaches will agree the situation favors the experienced team unless the foul trouble is a serious hindrance.

It appears to me that this thread is created after one conference game to gather the criers and wolfers. I've already deleted Casual Hoya from my sports information links, hopefully I can still come here to discuss sports, be it praise and critiquing but hopefully not the constant crying because of maybe some wanted a different choice as coach. Butler overcame a large deficit to Ohio State with a more experienced and seasoned Coach.

If after the non-conference and 1 conference game our expectations for our team is to win all their games except possibly VU and XU at their place then I would say the coach is doing one unbelievable job to this point. When all the BE coaches got together before the season and voted our team to finish either last or next to last; that insight came from some well-established coaches who were viewing the team from what was left from last year and the changes to get to establish the new. I respect their decisions to be well founded and not agenda based biases as such as some.

I’m a fan as always and I’m along for the ride with our team. If change is inevitable ever again, I’ll take that ride also.

[HometownHoya]

I don't see this thread as laying the losses entirely on Pat's head but it is important to note that blowing leads that big is a TEAM effort. We were one play away from winning both games in OT but we were also a half away from blowing both teams out. What happened in the second half of both these games? Do our players just forget what they were doing right once they're up so big? Responsibility stops with the coach and in games that we have a chance to win (like both SU and BU have been), you've gotta forgo "developing" freshman to get guys on the court who will make the right play. This is especially true if you believe we were just 1 play from winning both those games.

[Deleted]

Thing is they did make adjustments it's just those adjustments didn't work.. For instance putting Blair and Pickett in PNR because Butler was going under/sagging off Mulmore and staying attached to the big. Teams know he's a non-shooter especially off the dribble and took away the roller.

They're just young players who make mistakes. Think both had 4 or 5 to's a piece, many at crucial times. Not their fault, it's tough, they'll learn

[mfk24]

Dec 28, 2017 8:56:45 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

OK, that’s the second game against real opponents where we have blown a huge lead and totally lost our offensive identity in crunch time. Those things in general, and absolutely in these specific games, are usually indicative of poor coaching.

Our inability to adjust to SU press and specifically to pounce on the ball after Orange baskets and put it in play immediately cost us that game in my opinion. That was pathetic.

Over basically entire second half against Butler, we settled for terrible shots, stopped boxing out (which was brilliant if first half), played with extremely young and odd floor groupings, abandoned our bigs, and treated possession after possession like time kill situations. All while Ewing seemed fairly passive and uncertain on sidelines.

This is a young team in many ways, and certainly not Pat’s team from a personnel standpoint, but the disparity between halves in both games is highly disturbing, because these guys can play at a reasonably high level. Will they grow up and learn to win? Will someone on the floor start to take charge when things start to stagnate - both Blair and Mulmore tried to force that last night.

Is Ewing intentionally letting them figure it out and flounder through the process? Or do some of those pathetic plays and late-game swoons demonstrate Pat’s deficiencies? Maybe too early to tell, but it’s not looking hopeful in my opinion. PE has to at least try to coach up some answers instead of watching them bleed out on the floor.

It’s really odd, because in some respects we are way ahead of schedule on the rebuild and have looked great at times. And that’s not just making shots. We boxed out as a team as well as I’ve seen any GU team do it in a decade in the first half last night...and then just totally reverted to trash ball on both ends in the second half. Young team. Inexperienced coach. When it comes to stopping momentum and end-of-game stuff, Ewing has got to get some help.

These things happen without lead guards. And we don’t have a true point with any experience seeing out games nor a head coach who was a lead guard.

But the fact remains that PE has coached two meaningful games ...and those two games have resulted in two of the 5 worst collapses of the last decade. Uggggh.

Maybe you were watching a different Ewing on the sidelines than I was. I heard him yell multiple times to pass the ball inside to a big. That pass can't be tentative or it's going to get poked away and our perimeter players seemed too unsure, hesitated and missed their opportunity to make that pass. I think Pickett will turn into a great slasher to the rim and will be able to get his own shot in the future but he's not there right now and truly we don't have a single player on this team that can get the ball on the perimeter and make something happen for themselves. Ewing knows that we don't have the outside shooting to beat the zone, during a time out in the second half, he was imploring the guys to push the pace get something in transition or off the secondary break before Butler could get set up.

It has to be incredibly difficult to coach a team like this where your perimeter players are so limited in one way or another. You are gonna have to play some odd combinations on the floor. PE went with our better perimeter shooters last night given Butler's defense and unfortunately it didn't work in our favor. Mosley is probably the best floor general we have in that I think he sees the floor the best, but he can't shoot, and his handle can be shaky. Blair is a better 3pt shooter but has no off hand when he dribbles. Mulmore can get into the lane at will because of his speed but is often out of control, makes poor decisions, and also can't shoot. A lead guard doesn't just help in end game situations, I think with one, the lead doesn't slip so far away in the first place. I think he tried to put on band-aid on the lead guard issue by bringing in Dickerson as an experienced back court player, but that clearly hasn't worked out thus far.

[iowa80]

Dec 28, 2017 10:49:58 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

I’ll buy a lot relative to optimism, but I’m not buying the “we were one point short” argument on games where we had a 18-pt lead at half and 13-pt lead with 6:00. Those are epic collapses, which are almost always indicative of coaching shortcomings.

And statistically, we are more mature than Syracuse and way deeper than Butler. Results are disastrous by any account. Only silver lining was two splendid first halves...which also confuses the thread by suggesting the team is really pretty good.

Issue to me is still complete lack of a lead guard. Jagan doesn’t have handles, so it’s Mulmore, Blair or bust this season.

I see a disconnect between your correct assertion that our issue is the complete lack of a lead guard and the earlier claim that (our?) second half collapses are "almost always" indicative of coaching shortcomings.  In fact, in our case, the lack of a lead guard has led directly to the second half collapses.  There are certainly isolated instances where one could point to an alleged coaching mistake here or there, but that's usually what fans do after close losses.  We are fading down the stretch monumentally because "their" athletes at the really important guard position are better (or more experienced) than "our" athletes in ability and conditioning--something we suspected pre-season. There's a reason it's called crunch time.

[vv83]

Teams made second half adjustments against us in both losses - Syracuse pressed, Butler used the zone (looked like a 3-2 to me?). Unfortunately, we don't have the guards to consistently handle a good press, nor to shoot over/create off drives into the seams of a zone. We did not really have a good counter to the halftime defensive adjustments - this seems to be more a matter of personnel than Ewing's strategy. But it would have probably been a good idea to try a zone when Baldwin/Martin started getting into the lane at will for a bewildering series of floaters and layups in the second half- that one I'll put on Ewing. And I would have liked to see more Mosely in the second half - but I am not all that confident he would have fared any better than Mulmore/Blair/Kaleb. The primary issue is our backcourt/wing talent - nobody who can consistently create off the dribble. Tough to win close games with that particular limitation, especially when the other team has two guys who are doing this easily, on every possession of the second half.

[smokeyjack]

Dec 28, 2017 13:30:09 GMT -5 iowa80 said:

Dec 28, 2017 10:49:58 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

I’ll buy a lot relative to optimism, but I’m not buying the “we were one point short” argument on games where we had a 18-pt lead at half and 13-pt lead with 6:00. Those are epic collapses, which are almost always indicative of coaching shortcomings.

And statistically, we are more mature than Syracuse and way deeper than Butler. Results are disastrous by any account. Only silver lining was two splendid first halves...which also confuses the thread by suggesting the team is really pretty good.

Issue to me is still complete lack of a lead guard. Jagan doesn’t have handles, so it’s Mulmore, Blair or bust this season.

I see a disconnect between your correct assertion that our issue is the complete lack of a lead guard and the earlier claim that (our?) second half collapses are "almost always" indicative of coaching shortcomings.  In fact, in our case, the lack of a lead guard has led directly to the second half collapses.  There are certainly isolated instances where one could point to an alleged coaching mistake here or there, but that's usually what fans do after close losses.  We are fading down the stretch monumentally because "their" athletes at the really important guard position are better (or more experienced) than "our" athletes in ability and conditioning--something we suspected pre-season. There's a reason it's called crunch time.

I don’t really disagree that the lead guard issue is more to blame than anything Ewing has done. But you have to admit our press-break tactics vs Cuse and our set plays in late game were abominable.

I’m just hoping Pat grows as much as a coach as the the youngsters grow. Lots of red flags in late game situations in my opinion for Pat. Doesn’t mean I don’t like him or want him as a coach. Just think he’s got some growing to do.

[hoyalove4ever]

Good grief- the idea that we lost those games because of coaching is just plain incorrect- as is the assertion that there was any "meltdown" or anything close to it.

Rather, in both games the Hoyas were extremely well prepared against teams with similar or better players. They built nice leads but could not hold on- but not in any respect due to poor game planning or management (not that any actual argument to that effect has been articulated).

Look, I wish the team won those games as much as the next fan, but trying to throw the coaching staff under the bus is uncalled for and inaccurate.

[Hoyas4Ever]

Dec 28, 2017 12:01:23 GMT -5 HometownHoya said:

I don't see this thread as laying the losses entirely on Pat's head but it is important to note that blowing leads that big is a TEAM effort. We were one play away from winning both games in OT but we were also a half away from blowing both teams out. What happened in the second half of both these games? Do our players just forget what they were doing right once they're up so big? Responsibility stops with the coach and in games that we have a chance to win (like both SU and BU have been), you've gotta forgo "developing" freshman to get guys on the court who will make the right play. This is especially true if you believe we were just 1 play from winning both those games.

What I see happening after we build a huge lead is the team going away from what got them their lead in the first place. The game started off with the team consistently going inside to Derrickson to take advantage of his matchup with Martin. It was working extremely well as it lead to Martin getting 2 early fouls. Once the lead was built the younger players started taking quick poor shots and not even trying to get the ball inside. You also see some of the players playing outta control leading to very bad turnovers or looking extremely confused against the zone. How many times did Blair or Pickett flash into the middle of the key at the same time Govan or Derrickson. Really good teams stick to the game plan. It's almost like the players saying ok it's my turn once we get a sizeable lead. 

You could here Ewing consistently throughout the game yelling to get the ball inside to Derrickson and Govan. Even when Butler went zone, he was yelling at the team to pass it to the BIG's flashing. Coach Ewing's scouting reports have been dead on and through the game plan this team has been able to build double digit leads. 

I'm going to keep saying it because the film doesn't lie. You can't play Pickett and Mulmore together at the same time until they become more seasoned. Hurts shot selection, decision making, and absolutely destroys defensive continuity and rotations. 

[wilknow]

Can you imagine Ewing loosing in PK80 tourney earlier and a couple more. Fans critiquing him after2 loses? Geesh

[BeantownHoya]

So is there nothing to critique at all after blowing 13 pt and 18 pt second half leads?

You can critique without jumping off the bandwagon, correct?

I think most have been very realistic about expectations coming into this season but i think its also very fair to say we should be 12-0 and the coach has played some part in those losses (and of course he has in all 10 wins as well). Should the players shoulder more of the blame, probably so.

However I am sure if you asked Ewing he would say he could have done things differently.

Yes our roster is limited with talent to some degree but i think its fair to say he didnt coach the perfect game.

1. I think its fair to say Jagan should have seen more time especially during OT. I find that puzzling personally. Especially if we are all worried about Frosh mistakes. How about a lineup of Mulmore, Mosely, kaleb, Marcus, and Govan to finish? Flawed yes but what lineup isnt that we use?

2. What will it take to see Walker get more minutes? He couldnt have helped this team defensively, on the boards, or with some energy off the bench to try and stop that 2nd half run?

3. My biggest critique last night was never changing our defensive mindset with Baldwin or Martin. We dont ever double and try to have someone else beat us? How about going zone on a team that shot 3 for 21 from 3?

Maybe others will disagree but so far to date we are 10 - 0 against teams with less talent and 0 - 2 against teams with similar talent and in my mind a lot of the time that does have a reflection on how the coach managed the game. Especially blowing huge leads. He deserves credit for getting us in the position of winning those games and i think he should share some of the blame of these 2 demoralizing losses.

[bornhoya]

Definitely should have thought about going zone. Isn’t Orr the bench coach he should have mentioned it or something I haven’t seen the guy say more than 5 words

[mfk24]

Dec 28, 2017 18:53:06 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

So is there nothing to critique at all after blowing 13 pt and 18 pt second half leads?

You can critique without jumping off the bandwagon, correct?

I think most have been very realistic about expectations coming into this season but i think its also very fair to say we should be 12-0 and the coach has played some part in those losses (and of course he has in all 10 wins as well). Should the players shoulder more of the blame, probably so.

However I am sure if you asked Ewing he would say he could have done things differently.

Yes our roster is limited with talent to some degree but i think its fair to say he didnt coach the perfect game.

1. I think its fair to say Jagan should have seen more time especially during OT. I find that puzzling personally. Especially if we are all worried about Frosh mistakes. How about a lineup of Mulmore, Mosely, kaleb, Marcus, and Govan to finish? Flawed yes but what lineup isnt that we use?

2. What will it take to see Walker get more minutes? He couldnt have helped this team defensively, on the boards, or with some energy off the bench to try and stop that 2nd half run?

3. My biggest critique last night was never changing our defensive mindset with Baldwin or Martin. We dont ever double and try to have someone else beat us? How about going zone on a team that shot 3 for 21 from 3?

Maybe others will disagree but so far to date we are 10 - 0 against teams with less talent and 0 - 2 against teams with similar talent and in my mind a lot of the time that does have a reflection on how the coach managed the game. Especially blowing huge leads. He deserves credit for getting us in the position of winning those games and i think he should share some of the blame of these 2 demoralizing losses.

I think every game you lose you can Monday morning quarterback. So yeah, he does share some of the blame, but I disagree that's is some fundamental shortcoming in his coaching abiliry. Honestly I think Ewing's game plan and even his substitution pattern in response to Butler's defense were the right ones in theory. They just didn't work. They're playing a zone so go with you're better perimeter 3 point shooting. He was imploring his players, could hear him yelling at the guys to feed the post which is where our strengths lie. Even if they don't score playing inside out might've gotten us better looks from outside. There are things I'm sure Ewing would go back and change in how the game was played too.Unfortunately we missed a lot of them. Mosley and Mulmore played hot potato with the basketball on the perimeter because neither wanted to take the open 3. That's probably why he didn't continue playing them together.

[FLHoya]

Dec 28, 2017 18:53:06 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

3. My biggest critique last night was never changing our defensive mindset with Baldwin or Martin. We dont ever double and try to have someone else beat us? How about going zone on a team that shot 3 for 21 from 3?

This part is far more interesting to me personally than the offensive end...I do wonder (and this is consistent with something I wrote on Casual) why we didn't make any meaningful change on defense when Butler's MO in the 2nd half was clear from the get-go. I actually think we lost the game on the defensive end rather than offensively, and it mirrors the interesting decision on the 2-3 zone in the 2nd half against Cuse that IMO we stayed in way too long.

What I'm still not sure of: are there actually ANY "good" options with our present roster? Any change you could make has obvious downsides somewhere else: Kaleb on Martin (he was fouling a ton and who does Marcus guard?); Jagan on Baldwin instead of Mulmore (can you survive a Jagan-Blair backcourt late); 2-3 zone (work in progress, see Cuse).

I don't know if Coach played his best hand last night with the defensive strategy...but I also don't know what IS the best hand or IF there even is one!

[hoyaboya]

Dec 28, 2017 19:15:34 GMT -5 bornhoya said:

Definitely should have thought about going zone. Isn’t Orr the bench coach he should have mentioned it or something I haven’t seen the guy say more than 5 words

If Orr’s the bench coach (and I think he is), what exactly have we seen from him in his coaching career to suggest he’s any good?

[kbones17]

It is concerning that in the two games with comparable talent that we lost greatly in the second halves. Their coaches made adjustments and we didn’t respond to these adjustments effectively. It’s been a while since we outcoached our opponent, and not to rehash the previous coach, it’s comcerning to me to see that trend continue.

[This Just In]

Dec 28, 2017 8:56:45 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

OK, that’s the second game against real opponents where we have blown a huge lead and totally lost our offensive identity in crunch time. Those things in general, and absolutely in these specific games, are usually indicative of poor coaching.

Our inability to adjust to SU press and specifically to pounce on the ball after Orange baskets and put it in play immediately cost us that game in my opinion. That was pathetic.

Over basically entire second half against Butler, we settled for terrible shots, stopped boxing out (which was brilliant if first half), played with extremely young and odd floor groupings, abandoned our bigs, and treated possession after possession like time kill situations. All while Ewing seemed fairly passive and uncertain on sidelines.

This is a young team in many ways, and certainly not Pat’s team from a personnel standpoint, but the disparity between halves in both games is highly disturbing, because these guys can play at a reasonably high level. Will they grow up and learn to win? Will someone on the floor start to take charge when things start to stagnate - both Blair and Mulmore tried to force that last night.

Is Ewing intentionally letting them figure it out and flounder through the process? Or do some of those pathetic plays and late-game swoons demonstrate Pat’s deficiencies? Maybe too early to tell, but it’s not looking hopeful in my opinion. PE has to at least try to coach up some answers instead of watching them bleed out on the floor.

It’s really odd, because in some respects we are way ahead of schedule on the rebuild and have looked great at times. And that’s not just making shots. We boxed out as a team as well as I’ve seen any GU team do it in a decade in the first half last night...and then just totally reverted to trash ball on both ends in the second half. Young team. Inexperienced coach. When it comes to stopping momentum and end-of-game stuff, Ewing has got to get some help.

These things happen without lead guards. And we don’t have a true point with any experience seeing out games nor a head coach who was a lead guard.

But the fact remains that PE has coached two meaningful games ...and those two games have resulted in two of the 5 worst collapses of the last decade. Uggggh.

Blowing these leads is  a red flag and the OCC did not help the situation
Ewing was brought in to right the ship or else we should have kept the other coach.
Unfortunately the BE schedule is going be used to see if we can win close games and stop blowing leads and if neither happens Ewing's ability to coach will come into question along with other decisions the program has made.

Excerpt from ESPN article discussing the situation below:

LaVall Jordan, who accepted the Butler job after Chris Holtmann left for Ohio State in June, had his team play in that November tourney. His Bulldogs overcame a 15-point deficit with 3 minutes, 46 seconds to play in a game against Ohio State and recorded a 67-66 victory in overtime of the PK80 matchup.  And there they were again on Wednesday. Down big. Away from home. Struggling.



But not afraid.



Butler’s experience helped. That Ohio State game -- along with tough losses to Maryland, Texas and Purdue -- had strengthened Jordan’s program. The Bulldogs never panicked. They had walked through those torrid moments together.



Everything that happened prior to Wednesday’s game prepared the Bulldogs for another come-from-behind win.



Now, Georgetown’s growth must come during conference