hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 22:30:57 GMT -5
I would’ve rather had Samuels and JRE. If you are making me pick who I would take off that team for next year I would pick JRE, Samuels, Moore and Antoine if you tell me he is healthy.
You can say that Gilispie is the 2nd or maybe even most important player on the team but that’s a result of them not having another PG on the roster more than it does his ability. There are a lot of other BE Pg you can put in that system and be just fine. Take him out if that system and his value plummets.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2020 22:38:21 GMT -5
Uconn won the tourney in 2014, Ollie recruited well off of that plus the school has won 4 titles in 20 years... I'm interested to see how well Hardaway will do if he doesn't win a lot and if these kids aren't improving... Ollie isn’t the coach there anymore. They’ve had essentially the same past few years that we have. They were in a much worse conference and they have out recruited is by a mile. If you keep adding these stipulations were are essentially going to be down to only being able to pick the Hoyas. I know that my point was that a lot of the momentum Hurley has built came from kids Ollie recruited to Uconn like Vital, Gilbert, Adams etc... Uconn is another program that has a lot to sell recruits on...
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2020 22:44:24 GMT -5
I would’ve rather had Samuels and JRE. If you are making me pick who I would take off that team for next year I would pick JRE, Samuels, Moore and Antoine if you tell me he is healthy. You can say that Gilispie is the 2nd or maybe even most important player on the team but that’s a result of them not having another PG on the roster more than it does his ability. There are a lot of other BE Pg you can put in that system and be just fine. Take him out if that system and his value plummets. But isn't the point that good coaching has turned a kid who in your opinion isn't that talented goes out and plays pretty well for a top 20 program? I think he proves my point that coaching trumps talent...
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 22:54:56 GMT -5
Ollie isn’t the coach there anymore. They’ve had essentially the same past few years that we have. They were in a much worse conference and they have out recruited is by a mile. If you keep adding these stipulations were are essentially going to be down to only being able to pick the Hoyas. I know that my point was that a lot of the momentum Hurley has built came from kids Ollie recruited to Uconn like Vital, Gilbert, Adams etc... Uconn is another program that has a lot to sell recruits on... They haven’t been to the tourney since 2016. They were sanctioned and playing in a worse conference than we were. They are not in a recruiting hotbed. If anything we know that momentum dies quickly and they got through it fine while having a coach get fired. You are acting like we are St. Mary’s of the poor. We should be in a very good spot to recruit. The classes that Esherick were pulling were still fine compared to what we’ve done lately.
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 22:57:16 GMT -5
I would’ve rather had Samuels and JRE. If you are making me pick who I would take off that team for next year I would pick JRE, Samuels, Moore and Antoine if you tell me he is healthy. You can say that Gilispie is the 2nd or maybe even most important player on the team but that’s a result of them not having another PG on the roster more than it does his ability. There are a lot of other BE Pg you can put in that system and be just fine. Take him out if that system and his value plummets. But isn't the point that good coaching has turned a kid who in your opinion isn't that talented goes out and plays pretty well for a top 20 program? I think he proves my point that coaching trumps talent... I don’t think he plays well. He’s played like a guy that was ranked where he was put in the best system in college basketball surrounded by 1 of the most talented rosters in the country. If he was good Nova wouldn’t have fallen off.
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 23:03:09 GMT -5
Jay Wright is one of the best if not the best coach in the country. Can he do more with less than every other coach? Sure. Just remember he didn’t win a title until his team was all 4 or 5 stars which actually proves my point.
Jay has perfected the recruiting of the 4 stars although he’s starting to dive into 5 stars.
I think if you give Ewing all 4 and 5 stars and Wright mostly 3 stars and below Ewing’s team would do better.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2020 23:08:44 GMT -5
I know that my point was that a lot of the momentum Hurley has built came from kids Ollie recruited to Uconn like Vital, Gilbert, Adams etc... Uconn is another program that has a lot to sell recruits on... They haven’t been to the tourney since 2016. They were sanctioned and playing in a worse conference than we were. They are not in a recruiting hotbed. If anything we know that momentum dies quickly and they got through it fine while having a coach get fired. You are acting like we are St. Mary’s of the poor. We should be in a very good spot to recruit. The classes that Esherick were pulling were still fine compared to what we’ve done lately. I get it now, you think I'm defending Gtown's recruiting which I'm not... I just think coaching is more important than recruiting/talent, that's where we differ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 23:15:33 GMT -5
But isn't the point that good coaching has turned a kid who in your opinion isn't that talented goes out and plays pretty well for a top 20 program? I think he proves my point that coaching trumps talent... I don’t think he plays well. He’s played like a guy that was ranked where he was put in the best system in college basketball surrounded by 1 of the most talented rosters in the country. If he was good Nova wouldn’t have fallen off. If anything it's more kids like Samuels, Slater, DCR, and Swider not living up to their lofty rankings than him being the reason they're not elite, if that's your argument. They also didn't have any seniors and a lot of their elite talent were freshman aside from Bey. Not a recipe for being elite no matter who is leading you. Nova won both times with upperclassmen carrying the majority of the load.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2020 23:16:48 GMT -5
But isn't the point that good coaching has turned a kid who in your opinion isn't that talented goes out and plays pretty well for a top 20 program? I think he proves my point that coaching trumps talent... I don’t think he plays well. He’s played like a guy that was ranked where he was put in the best system in college basketball surrounded by 1 of the most talented rosters in the country. If he was good Nova wouldn’t have fallen off. What you're really saying is if he was as good as Arciadiacano(sp?) and Brunson they wouldn't have fallen off, that's a tall order don't you think?
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 23:29:55 GMT -5
I don’t think he plays well. He’s played like a guy that was ranked where he was put in the best system in college basketball surrounded by 1 of the most talented rosters in the country. If he was good Nova wouldn’t have fallen off. If anything it's more kids like Samuels, Slater, DCR, and Swider not living up to their lofty rankings than him being the reason they're not elite, if that's your argument. They also didn't have any seniors and a lot of their elite talent were freshman aside from Bey. Not a recipe for being elite no matter who is leading you. Nova won both times with upperclassmen carrying the majority of the load. Yes old guys win but they weren’t that young last year. Especially when you consider how good Bey was as a frosh. They were also old enough to be better than they were this year. Just go look at Samuels advanced numbers. He’s an underrated as Gillespie is overrated.
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 23:41:24 GMT -5
I don’t think he plays well. He’s played like a guy that was ranked where he was put in the best system in college basketball surrounded by 1 of the most talented rosters in the country. If he was good Nova wouldn’t have fallen off. What you're really saying is if he was as good as Arciadiacano(sp?) and Brunson they wouldn't have fallen off, that's a tall order don't you think? I think with a James Akinjo just taking a natural progression from last year and not having the Mac presence they don’t fall off. Give them any of McKnight, Zegarowski, Baldwin, or Howard and they are better and maybe at the level they were. I think if you gave them Moore or Allen they are just as good. Those guys probably aren’t on the Brunson/Arch level but they could get it done.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 23:41:58 GMT -5
If anything it's more kids like Samuels, Slater, DCR, and Swider not living up to their lofty rankings than him being the reason they're not elite, if that's your argument. They also didn't have any seniors and a lot of their elite talent were freshman aside from Bey. Not a recipe for being elite no matter who is leading you. Nova won both times with upperclassmen carrying the majority of the load. Yes old guys win but they weren’t that young last year. Especially when you consider how good Bey was as a frosh. They were also old enough to be better than they were this year. Just go look at Samuels advanced numbers. He’s an underrated as Gillespie is overrated. They weren't as experienced as the elite teams you're comparing them to. If the argument is Gillespie isn't Arch and that's the reason they're not elite shouldn't we be comparing Samuels to Eric Pashall? The team surrounding him isn't nearly as good as the teams that won chips you can't say he's the reason why they're not elite.
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2020 23:48:54 GMT -5
Yes old guys win but they weren’t that young last year. Especially when you consider how good Bey was as a frosh. They were also old enough to be better than they were this year. Just go look at Samuels advanced numbers. He’s an underrated as Gillespie is overrated. They weren't as experienced as the elite teams you're comparing them to. If the argument is Gillespie isn't Arch and that's the reason they're not elite shouldn't we be comparing Samuels to Eric Pashall? The team surrounding him isn't nearly as good as the teams that won chips you can't say he's the reason why they're not elite. If you just go by KenPom numbers starting in 2014t hey are 11, 5, 1, 2, 1, 30, 18. You think the last 2 years they should’ve been the 30th and 18th with all that talent? 30 last year is a disgrace. It’s not that they aren’t winning the titles. They have comparatively fell off a cliff and it’s not because of recruiting.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2020 23:52:40 GMT -5
Jay Wright is one of the best if not the best coach in the country. Can he do more with less than every other coach? Sure. Just remember he didn’t win a title until his team was all 4 or 5 stars which actually proves my point. Jay has perfected the recruiting of the 4 stars although he’s starting to dive into 5 stars. I think if you give Ewing all 4 and 5 stars and Wright mostly 3 stars and below Ewing’s team would do better. Wright has always had 4 & 5* kids @ Villanova, check their Sports reference page... Sure a lesser coach may win more games with better players than Wright would win with lesser players but who do you think would maximize their results better?
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 23, 2020 0:03:21 GMT -5
Jay Wright is one of the best if not the best coach in the country. Can he do more with less than every other coach? Sure. Just remember he didn’t win a title until his team was all 4 or 5 stars which actually proves my point. Jay has perfected the recruiting of the 4 stars although he’s starting to dive into 5 stars. I think if you give Ewing all 4 and 5 stars and Wright mostly 3 stars and below Ewing’s team would do better. Wright has always had 4 & 5* kids @ Villanova, check their Sports reference page... Sure a lesser coach may win more games with better players than Wright would win with lesser players but who do you think would maximize their results better? If Nova throws up another comparative stinker next year like they have the past 2 years I will definitely knock Jay down a few pegs as a coach. He shouldn’t be sharing or losing BE conference titles with the talent advantage he has. As a recruiter I think he’s #1 because he’s perfected recruiting guys that are very good but not quite 1 and done especially guards which is the key. He basically gets some of the best skilled but not athletic enough guards that have to stay in college and win to prove they are NBA worthy. Well until this latest one 😉 That’s what UVA used to win a title as well.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 23, 2020 0:07:16 GMT -5
What you're really saying is if he was as good as Arciadiacano(sp?) and Brunson they wouldn't have fallen off, that's a tall order don't you think? I think with a James Akinjo just taking a natural progression from last year and not having the Mac presence they don’t fall off. Give them any of McKnight, Zegarowski, Baldwin, or Howard and they are better and maybe at the level they were. I think if you gave them Moore or Allen they are just as good. Those guys probably aren’t on the Brunson/Arch level but they could get it done. Who helps with a player's progression year to year? All of the players you're mentioning are good players, it's not a surprise they'd do well at Nova in my view...
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on May 23, 2020 0:18:14 GMT -5
They weren't as experienced as the elite teams you're comparing them to. If the argument is Gillespie isn't Arch and that's the reason they're not elite shouldn't we be comparing Samuels to Eric Pashall? The team surrounding him isn't nearly as good as the teams that won chips you can't say he's the reason why they're not elite. If you just go by KenPom numbers starting in 2014t hey are 11, 5, 1, 2, 1, 30, 18. You think the last 2 years they should’ve been the 30th and 18th with all that talent? 30 last year is a disgrace. It’s not that they aren’t winning the titles. They have comparatively fell off a cliff and it’s not because of recruiting. You are an extremely hard marker if 1st place, BET championship, and a win in the tourney are considered a stinker of a year. Especially coming off of an NCAA tourney win when your top players are all underclassmen who leave early for the NBA...
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 23, 2020 0:24:19 GMT -5
I think with a James Akinjo just taking a natural progression from last year and not having the Mac presence they don’t fall off. Give them any of McKnight, Zegarowski, Baldwin, or Howard and they are better and maybe at the level they were. I think if you gave them Moore or Allen they are just as good. Those guys probably aren’t on the Brunson/Arch level but they could get it done. Who helps with a player's progression year to year? All of the players you're mentioning are good players, it's not a surprise they'd do well at Nova in my view... James wasn’t a skill progression or player development problem. It was all a Mac problem. James is twice the player that Gilispie is. I’ve said yes it’s important that even if you recruit 4 stars that you don’t Have a coach that makes them want to quit. Most schools don’t have that problem so even though I’ve said it I don’t think it really factors into the overall discussing as we are the one off. Yes all are good but not great and Gilispie is worse than all of them. That’s the point of this entire discussion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 0:45:57 GMT -5
They weren't as experienced as the elite teams you're comparing them to. If the argument is Gillespie isn't Arch and that's the reason they're not elite shouldn't we be comparing Samuels to Eric Pashall? The team surrounding him isn't nearly as good as the teams that won chips you can't say he's the reason why they're not elite. If you just go by KenPom numbers starting in 2014t hey are 11, 5, 1, 2, 1, 30, 18. You think the last 2 years they should’ve been the 30th and 18th with all that talent? 30 last year is a disgrace. It’s not that they aren’t winning the titles. They have comparatively fell off a cliff and it’s not because of recruiting. You didn't really respond to anything I wrote. They're not as good as those teams because their overall talent isn't as good. You're putting it all on him, but it's not because of him. Is last years team, the one with Booth as their leading scorer elite if soph Arch is the pg? I also want to say part of the reason Samuels advanced numbers are good is because other players are creating opportunities for him on offense. He can't go out and score it himself, he's not being game planned against. I think looking at his advanced numbers on offense doesn't tell the whole story. He's a good role player. An undersized lunch pail four. But relatively speaking in that role his Junior season wasn't even as good as Leblanc's Freshman year, and he's a top 50 guy.
|
|
hoyainla
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Suspended
Posts: 4,719
|
Post by hoyainla on May 23, 2020 0:46:31 GMT -5
If you just go by KenPom numbers starting in 2014t hey are 11, 5, 1, 2, 1, 30, 18. You think the last 2 years they should’ve been the 30th and 18th with all that talent? 30 last year is a disgrace. It’s not that they aren’t winning the titles. They have comparatively fell off a cliff and it’s not because of recruiting. You are an extremely hard marker if 1st place, BET championship, and a win in the tourney are considered a stinker of a year. Especially coming off of an NCAA tourney win when your top players are all underclassmen who leave early for the NBA... If you recruit at the level that Nova recruits at AND you don’t have 1 and dones like Duke, Kentucky finishing 30th is bad and 18 is below average. They have played 3 guys lower than 4 stars Since the title years. One of those is in the NBA, one was 7-8 type guy and the other one is has been the PG for the past 2 years. When they won their last title they played 2018 - 4 Jr, 1 So. 3 Fr. 2019 - 3 Sr, 3 So, 2 Fr 2020 - 3 Jr, 3 So, 2 Fr.
|
|