McBricks
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What Rocks.
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Post by McBricks on Dec 16, 2017 1:19:22 GMT -5
I really don't get the point of that article at all. I feel like a high school kid could have written it. Yep, we know the schedule sucked. What's the point of that story now? Did she go to Georgetown?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 15:07:01 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore.
Edit: I know people here hate Seth Davis but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going."
Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 15:21:01 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore. Edit: I know people here hate Seth Greenberg but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going." Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right. It wasn't Seth Greenberg dude... Hopefully one day you will be able to see the game beyond stats, rpi, and computer rankings...
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 16, 2017 15:32:33 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore. Edit: I know people here hate Seth Greenberg but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going." Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right. For goodness sake you were going to be posting your usual pearl clutching drivel about the schedule no matter what the outcome. This season is not about making the tournament. If we did/do it’s an unexpected miracle. Get that through your head and stop clogging up the board with schedule gripes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 15:36:24 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore. Edit: I know people here hate Seth Greenberg but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going." Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right. It wasn't Seth Greenberg dude... Hopefully one day you will be able to see the game beyond stats, rpi, and computer rankings... Typo, meant Seth Davis.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 15:38:38 GMT -5
For goodness sake you were going to be posting your usual pearl clutching drivel about the schedule no matter what the outcome. This season is not about making the tournament. If we did/do it’s an unexpected miracle. Get that through your head and stop clogging up the board with schedule gripes. If we won this game, and were 9-9 in the Big East, we would've had an RPI in the 50s. We lost, so now our RPI in that scenario would be in the 80s, which is significant. After all, that's much about what this thread is about. I only reported the Seth Davis thing because it was on right after the game as I was typing that. I realize you hate everything I write, but your telling me that frequently isn't going to chase me away. If you don't like it, ignore it, but I am going nowhere.
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jester
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Post by jester on Dec 16, 2017 15:41:41 GMT -5
However if we play 9-9 in big east I will still consider the season largely a success. I think when you are picked dead last in BE and you start complaining about about missing the chance to play the tournament it’s a bit missing the bigger picture of PE/teams headway.
Bottom line, worth debating once this team performs well in BE, moot point until then I think.
I regret not scheduling more hard games from a learning oppty perspective, but maybe PE is taking longer term view and sees 16 of these on our schedule.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 16, 2017 15:54:19 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore. Edit: I know people here hate Seth Greenberg but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going." Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right. For goodness sake you were going to be posting your usual pearl clutching drivel about the schedule no matter what the outcome. This season is not about making the tournament. If we did/do it’s an unexpected miracle. Get that through your head and stop clogging up the board with schedule gripes. Making the tourney should be what every season is about.. That doesn't mean it's a loss if they don't get there or that a program can't look heavily to the future during the season but they should prepare to play as long into the season as they can.. I also have to mention that "next" season is never guaranteed to any program so why waste one of them..
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 16, 2017 16:04:36 GMT -5
We're not going 9-9 in the Big East.
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guru
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Post by guru on Dec 16, 2017 16:18:26 GMT -5
For goodness sake you were going to be posting your usual pearl clutching drivel about the schedule no matter what the outcome. This season is not about making the tournament. If we did/do it’s an unexpected miracle. Get that through your head and stop clogging up the board with schedule gripes. Making the tourney should be what every season is about.. That doesn't mean it's a loss if they don't get there or that a program can't look heavily to the future during the season but they should prepare to play as long into the season as they can.. I also have to mention that "next" season is never guaranteed to any program so why waste one of them.. I don’t disagree. But that is the reality of this season. I don’t like the schedule either. At all. I just get frustrated that certain posters derail every thread to do facile analysis of it.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 16:49:43 GMT -5
I don’t disagree. But that is the reality of this season. I don’t like the schedule either. At all. I just get frustrated that certain posters derail every thread to do facile analysis of it. The name of this thread is "Hoyas Schedule stays light." I'm not exactly sure what else is supposed to be discussed here.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 16, 2017 17:30:58 GMT -5
We are still undermanned. Need more pieces to the puzzle.
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Post by hoyaatheart55 on Dec 16, 2017 17:47:29 GMT -5
We're not going 9-9 in the Big East. Right? We're going 10-8 at least
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Dec 16, 2017 19:28:50 GMT -5
Now that we lost against Syracuse, even if we go 9-9 in the Big East (which is no sure thing), our RPI would be in the 80s, so virtually no shot of any post-season (NCAA or NIT) anymore. Edit: I know people here hate Seth Greenberg but he just said on CBS: "Georgetown is a pretty good team. This is why I am frankly disappointed that Patrick Ewing played such a horrific, the worst non conference strength of schedule in the country. First of all, it would have prepared them better for this game, you look at Georgetown they look like a bubble team. Believe me, if they're anywhere close to the bubble they have zero chance to get to the NCAA tournament because of the schedule that he elected to play in the early going." Hate all you want to on Greenberg, but he's right. It wasn't Seth Greenberg dude... Hopefully one day you will be able to see the game beyond stats, rpi, and computer rankings...Exactly! The game is more than just numbers. All the pre game analytics say that Coach Ewing's game plan should have lead to a win. Syracuse entered the game as one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the country so playing a 2/3 zone forcing them to shoot from the perimeter is what the numbers dictate. Today they knock down 10/23 from beyond the arc. Playing Blair with Mosely down the stretch instead of playing Mosely & Mulmore together is what the analytics would say is the right decision because of Blair being the better perimeter shooter in the half court against the zone and Mosely had it going offensively. Hindsight being 20/20, playing Mulmore with Mosely was the better play because when the Hoyas did get past their press they were getting lay-UP's and dunks and if they could have just navigated their press, Syracuse would have eventually had to call it off or the the Hoyas walk away with an easy win. Numbers aren't everything in the game...
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Dec 16, 2017 19:47:19 GMT -5
Also anyone saying the team everyone picked 9th or 10th in the league coming off consecutive losing seasons is a "pretty good team" would be a credit to how the coach is developing the team more than an indictment of his scheduling.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 19:59:25 GMT -5
It wasn't Seth Greenberg dude... Hopefully one day you will be able to see the game beyond stats, rpi, and computer rankings...Exactly! The game is more than just numbers. All the pre game analytics say that Coach Ewing's game plan should have lead to a win. Syracuse entered the game as one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the country so playing a 2/3 zone forcing them to shoot from the perimeter is what the numbers dictate. Today they knock down 10/23 from beyond the arc. Playing Blair with Mosely down the stretch instead of playing Mosely & Mulmore together is what the analytics would say is the right decision because of Blair being the better perimeter shooter in the half court against the zone and Mosely had it going offensively. Hindsight being 20/20, playing Mulmore with Mosely was the better play because when the Hoyas did get past their press they were getting lay-UP's and dunks and if they could have just navigated their press, Syracuse would have eventually had to call it off or the the Hoyas walk away with an easy win. Numbers aren't everything in the game... Of course, numbers aren't everything but it's the only objective thing we really have. That's where the value lies - not blind allegiance to them but using them to analyze and improve the team. I have no doubt Ewing and others use them to a degree. But I would add that models like KenPom had Syracuse as a slight favorite and had it basically 50-50. So no, the models and pre game analytics didn't get it wrong.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 16, 2017 20:30:32 GMT -5
When all is said and done, we were killed by rebounding. Even more so than the 3's, some of which were the result of poor rebounding. I haven't checked, but I'm guessing numbers/analytics show that this could be an issue.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Dec 16, 2017 21:21:55 GMT -5
Exactly! The game is more than just numbers. All the pre game analytics say that Coach Ewing's game plan should have lead to a win. Syracuse entered the game as one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the country so playing a 2/3 zone forcing them to shoot from the perimeter is what the numbers dictate. Today they knock down 10/23 from beyond the arc. Playing Blair with Mosely down the stretch instead of playing Mosely & Mulmore together is what the analytics would say is the right decision because of Blair being the better perimeter shooter in the half court against the zone and Mosely had it going offensively. Hindsight being 20/20, playing Mulmore with Mosely was the better play because when the Hoyas did get past their press they were getting lay-UP's and dunks and if they could have just navigated their press, Syracuse would have eventually had to call it off or the the Hoyas walk away with an easy win. Numbers aren't everything in the game... Of course, numbers aren't everything but it's the only objective thing we really have. That's where the value lies - not blind allegiance to them but using them to analyze and improve the team. I have no doubt Ewing and others use them to a degree. But I would add that models like KenPom had Syracuse as a slight favorite and had it basically 50-50. So no, the models and pre game analytics didn't get it wrong. I don't think you read or understood my post correctly. Or maybe I'm not completely understanding your post. I absolutely have no doubt Ewing uses analytics. His game plan today proves that he uses it and that's what I was saying. Analytics can't be used to decide how the entire game will be played or really who will win. Did Ken Pom know Georgetown was going to play zone for 2/3 of the game when we have only played it less than 5% of time this season? Did Ken Pom the expect Syracuse to press the Hoyas for the last 8 minutes of the game when they aren't a pressing team? It's the decisions and the counter decisions each team makes and how they are applied is what dictates the outcome of games. That's where the value is. Sports are the greatest Chess game there is because you're dealing with people who are completely independent of each other and trying to get them to work in sync with each other. That's where the value and beauty of the game is... One thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in a variety of ways to facilitate a desired outcome when you don't have all the variables and facts. I don't know you Hoyasaxa2003 so I don't say this with any malice but what comes across as your blind loyalty to the numbers is not allowing you to see the full beauty of the game. I say blind loyalty because it feels like on at least 90% of your posts, you're quoting numbers. Don't get me wrong, some of them are informative and well placed but the game is SO..SO...SO MUCH MORE than just numbers.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 16, 2017 22:10:21 GMT -5
Of course, numbers aren't everything but it's the only objective thing we really have. That's where the value lies - not blind allegiance to them but using them to analyze and improve the team. I have no doubt Ewing and others use them to a degree. But I would add that models like KenPom had Syracuse as a slight favorite and had it basically 50-50. So no, the models and pre game analytics didn't get it wrong. I don't think you read or understood my post correctly. Or maybe I'm not completely understanding your post. I absolutely have no doubt Ewing uses analytics. His game plan today proves that he uses it and that's what I was saying. Analytics can't be used to decide how the entire game will be played or really who will win. Did Ken Pom know Georgetown was going to play zone for 2/3 of the game when we have only played it less than 5% of time this season? Did Ken Pom the expect Syracuse to press the Hoyas for the last 8 minutes of the game when they aren't a pressing team? It's the decisions and the counter decisions each team makes and how they are applied is what dictates the outcome of games. That's where the value is. Sports are the greatest Chess game there is because you're dealing with people who are completely independent of each other and trying to get them to work in sync with each other. That's where the value and beauty of the game is... One thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in a variety of ways to facilitate a desired outcome when you don't have all the variables and facts. I don't know you Hoyasaxa2003 so I don't say this with any malice but what comes across as your blind loyalty to the numbers is not allowing you to see the full beauty of the game. I say blind loyalty because it feels like on at least 90% of your posts, you're quoting numbers. Don't get me wrong, some of them are informative and well placed but the game is SO..SO...SO MUCH MORE than just numbers. I appreciate your thoughtful post - I agree with nearly everything you said. Analytics are obviously just one part of the game. I do think stats are more useful than the projection models because they tell us about players and give us objective information. And stats are one of the few ways to compare players etc. and they provide a check on what we see. Obviously, Patrick Ewing has a lot more information than we do - which is why I tend to be deferential on things like how many minutes guys like Sodom get. But you're right. We only play each game once. So if KenPom or RPI Forecast tell us we are 95%+ to win that still means there's a chance we lose (as we did against FGCU). Obviously these projections can tell us about where we stand generally but there's no way to predict what will happen in any single game. I actually think it's a great illustration of how unlikely things happen all the time - "upsets" happen pretty often. I realize that many of my posts - including those based on our schedule are stat heavy. When talking about schedule, it's almost a necessity. The NCAA committee uses stats to determine things like SoS or RPI, and that's really the only way to evaluate those factors (in fact, that's the only way everyone knows our schedule is the worst in modern history). Thus, it is tough to have a meaningful discussion about schedule without referencing those stats. But I get that some people don't like talking about it or think it's overkill. I am happy we will be moving into the Big East soon and can play games more similar to today's. And when evaluating a matchup in advance stats help to inform strategy to a point - but as you point out Syracuse is an awful three point shooting team yet they did great today. On average they don't shoot well. Today they did. It is part of what makes the game fun. It may not be obvious from my posts, but I very much appreciate the game itself, good plays, good defense (I loved watching the good defensive teams we had in 2012 and 2013), for example. I love watching the games - that's why I watch even if we play Coppola State or whoever our SWAC/MEAC opponent might be. I also love watching the guys develop, get better over time, etc. And obviously recruiting is another area where rankings, etc. are a useful but not in any way conclusive. There are plenty of guys not ranked who turn out to be good and vice versa. That's why I enjoy reading things from our posters who follow recruitment - it's information you're not going to get from ESPN or wherever. Like I said, I get that my approach may be different than others, and I think any serious analysis of basketball in 2017 has to use analytics as one factor among many, but I don't mean to convey "blind loyalty" to stats (and while I definitely use stats in posts I think many of my posts focusing on the game etc. demonstrate that). After all, if stats were the only thing that mattered there'd be no purpose in watching the games.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Dec 17, 2017 2:18:50 GMT -5
I don't think you read or understood my post correctly. Or maybe I'm not completely understanding your post. I absolutely have no doubt Ewing uses analytics. His game plan today proves that he uses it and that's what I was saying. Analytics can't be used to decide how the entire game will be played or really who will win. Did Ken Pom know Georgetown was going to play zone for 2/3 of the game when we have only played it less than 5% of time this season? Did Ken Pom the expect Syracuse to press the Hoyas for the last 8 minutes of the game when they aren't a pressing team? It's the decisions and the counter decisions each team makes and how they are applied is what dictates the outcome of games. That's where the value is. Sports are the greatest Chess game there is because you're dealing with people who are completely independent of each other and trying to get them to work in sync with each other. That's where the value and beauty of the game is... One thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in a variety of ways to facilitate a desired outcome when you don't have all the variables and facts. I don't know you Hoyasaxa2003 so I don't say this with any malice but what comes across as your blind loyalty to the numbers is not allowing you to see the full beauty of the game. I say blind loyalty because it feels like on at least 90% of your posts, you're quoting numbers. Don't get me wrong, some of them are informative and well placed but the game is SO..SO...SO MUCH MORE than just numbers. I appreciate your thoughtful post - I agree with nearly everything you said. Analytics are obviously just one part of thr game. I do think stats are more useful than the projection models because they tell us about players and give us objective information. And stats are one of the few ways to compare players etc. and they provide a check on what we see. Obviously, Patrick Ewing has a lot more information than we do - which is why I tend to be deferential on things like how many minutes guys like Sodom get. But you're right. We only play each game once. So if KenPom or RPI Forecast tell us we are 95%+ to win that still means there's a chance we lose (as we did against FGCU). Obviously these projections can tell us about where we stand generally but there's no way to predict what will happen in any single game. I actually think it's a great illustration of how unlikely things happen all the time - "upsets" happen pretty often. I realize that many of my posts - including those based on our schedule are stat heavy. When talking about schedule, it's almost a necessity. The NCAA committee uses stats to determine things like SoS or RPI, and that's really the only way to evaluate those factors (in fact, that's the only way everyone knows our schedule is the worst in modern history). Thus, it is tough to have a meaningful discussion about schedule without referencing those stats. But I get that some people don't like talking about it or think it's overkill. I am happy we will be moving into the Big East soon and can play games more similar to today's. And when evaluating a matchup in advance stats help to inform strategy to a point - but as you point out Syracuse is an awful three point shooting team yet they did great today. On average they don't shoot well. Today they did. It is part of what makes the game fun. It may not be obvious from my posts, but I very much appreciate the game itself, good plays, good defense (I loved watching the good defensive teams we had in 2012 and 2013), for example. I love watching the games - that's why I watch even if we play Coppola State or whoever our SWAC/MEAC opponent might be. I also love watching the guys develop, get better over time, etc. And obviously recruiting is another area where rankings, etc. are a useful but not in any way conclusive. There are plenty of guys not ranked who turn out to be good and vice versa. That's why I enjoy reading things from our posters who follow recruitment - it's information you're not going to get from ESPN or wherever. Like I said, I get that my approach may be different than others, and I think any serious analysis of basketball in 2017 has to use analytics as one factor among many, but I don't mean to convey "blind loyalty" to stats (and while I definitely use stats in posts I think many of my posts focusing on the game etc. demonstrate that). After all, if stats were the only thing that mattered there'd be no purpose in watching the games. I agree with everything you posted here and tbh I have come to appreciate your stats based post for a selfish reason that I don't have to look up the analytics myself because sooner or later you will provide them. To me they do add some post game context to what we just saw as well as contradict the expected. But they don't give the whole picture. Look at the DePaul/Northwestern game where DePaul looses by 2 after completely out playing Northwestern and winning all the positive statistical categories even taking 19 more free throws than Northwestern. Ken Pom could not have figured that Depaul a team that shoots 76.5% as a team from the charity stripe this season would go 9/24 in a home game against its rival. I don't want my original post regarding your stats heavy post to have any effect on how or what you post. Would love more personal insight as well from you and everyone who post on here. For example, while I love what Pickett brings to the table, and recognize he's ultra talented, I think he needs to be a bit more selective in his shot selection. Pickett and Blair hunt for shots instead of letting the game come to them. I also think Pickett needs to get more involved on the glass. These are typical developmental needs of most freshman so it's probably a matter of time and experience. On the flip side, I think Kaleb and Jagan need to be a tad more aggressive. Everybody on here is a character including myself. Your the analytics person, Etomic is the social media/recruiting person. YaBoy is the recruiting/basketball guru. Glides is the PG play guy. Lic is the lovable poster who pops up every once in a while and expresses his never ending love for Georgetown Hoops in his own unique language. There are posters on here who lean heavy on the conspiracies. Some posters on here who are still angry JT3 was fired. Some posters on here who are still angry that Coach Ewing was hired and Dan is the referee who balances everyone and everything out. I can be the angry poster at times. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm still heart broken we didn't get Chris Lykes. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful to anyone. I merely pointing out all of this out because everyone on here's different perspectives and knowledge is what makes this community so much fun.
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