Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 13:20:46 GMT -5
I am truly shocked. They stopped using white phosphorous because it was illegal. But Human Shields??? Where did that come from?? It's Hamas who specializes in human shields. Collective punishment. What are you talking about?? No country has tried to protect civilians more than Israel. They would warn civilians to leave certain areas or certain buildings before they bombed them. What country has ever done that? And when they warned civilians of impending bombings, Hamas told them to stay where they are. Hamas was firing rockets near hospitals, schools, etc. The current blockade of Gaza is directly the result of the behavior of Hamas. As I stated before, they kept the checkpoints open for 2 years after they withdrew from Gaza. After two years of rocket attacks, and terrorist attacks they had had enough. I am shocked that you can compare the behavior of a terrorist group with the behavior of Israel.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 13:20:52 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 13:41:17 GMT -5
Many of other governments' public pronouncements are anti-Israel. However, dismantling the settlements are not going to benefit Israel any more than doing it in Gaza. Israel is getting a lot of behind the scenes support especially from Arab countries. I meant to say There haven't been resolution "PASSED" .... My bad.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 18,256
|
Post by SSHoya on Dec 27, 2016 14:12:04 GMT -5
"What you have to keep in mind is that Ben Gurion Airport is only a mile and a half from the border of the west bank. It would take only one rocket, or actually a mortar to close it down for months." JerryLH, no. Ben Gurion is at least 40-50 miles from the West Bank and I've departed from there many times. I spent two years living on a military base in the Sinai 15 kms from the IBL and Gaza. That being said, Hamas rockets launched from Gaza can range from 10 km to 75 kms (6 miles to 45 miles) depending if the rocket is a Qassam, Grad or Katuysha, and the Iranian made Fajr-5 with the greatest range. The question is one of effective range. www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htmHowever, Hamas has shown no effective capability to shutdown Ben Gurion. "In the memo, Romm said that according to an Air Force study, the chances of a random rocket hit to an airplane parked on the tarmac is "negligible," and estimated at one in a hundred million. The chances of an aircraft flying through Israeli airspace being hit by a rocket are even lower, and estimated as one in a billion, Romm said." "Romm, a reserve Major General and a fighter pilot who has manned several senior posts in the Israel Air Force - including commanding the Ramon and Tel Nof bases and heading the IAF staff – added that "The Iron dome launch batteries covering Ben-Gurion Airport operate under a specific set of procedures which I cannot go into in detail due to security reasons. I would like to note, however, that out of over 2,250 rockets fired from Gaza into Israeli territory (a portion of which have been directed at Israel's center), not a single one has landed in Ben-Gurion Airport." read more: www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.607290US has sold missile defense systems to the Israeli Defense Forces, i.e., Patriot system. "In recent years, Israel has carried out various modifications to the Patriot system in order to enhance its effectiveness. The Patriot operates in conjunction with other anti-missile systems, including the Iron Dome, Magic Wand and Arrow systems, to counter the various aerial threats that Israel faces." www.idf.il/1556-en/Dover.aspx
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,264
|
Post by prhoya on Dec 27, 2016 15:33:47 GMT -5
JerryLH, no. Ben Gurion is at least 40-50 miles from the West Bank and I've departed from there many times. I spent two years living on a military base in the Sinai 15 kms from the IBL and Gaza. That being said, Hamas rockets launched from Gaza can range from 10 km to 75 kms (6 miles to 45 miles) depending if the rocket is a Qassam, Grad or Katuysha, and the Iranian made Fajr-5 with the greatest range. The question is one of effective range. HoyaTalkers come in all shape and sizes! I bet SSHoya worked for the "State Department".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 16:03:31 GMT -5
Hi SS You are incorrect about this www.distancesfrom.com/distance-from-west-bank--to-Ben-Gurion-Airport-Israel/DistanceHistory/14237269.aspx?IsHistory=1&GMapHistoryID=14237269It is 40 miles if you drive. Take a look at the map again. Missiles don't travel along roads. I may have been pushing it a bit with 1.5 miles. However as the crow flies, it is just a few miles which is certainly within Mortar range. Also, during the last Gaza war they did shut down Ben Gurion Airport if you remember. Hamas has rockets with ranges that can reach almost any part of Israel now. I think even Hamas knows that shooting rockets at Ben Gurion and closing it down, would force Israel to invade Gaza and re-occupy it. I don't think that even Hamas wants that. Ben Gurion is well within the range of their rockets.
|
|
hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,392
|
Post by hoyainspirit on Dec 27, 2016 22:46:34 GMT -5
The title of this thread sucks.
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Dec 27, 2016 23:29:49 GMT -5
For a school with the nation's best foreign service school, I was hoping that our right-leaning posters would be able to present some sort of cogent, non partisan argument here.
Instead, we gets the same rubes posting ad hominem attacks with little to no analysis of the situation at all.
|
|
DallasHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,631
|
Post by DallasHoya on Dec 27, 2016 23:36:29 GMT -5
For a school with the nation's best foreign service school, I was hoping that our right-leaning posters would be able to present some sort of cogent, non partisan argument here. Instead, we gets the same rubes posting ad hominem attacks with little to no analysis of the situation at all. While I won't get into an argument on the merits of this debate, I would point out that SFS professors like this aren't exactly setting the best example. SFS professor loses it online
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,442
|
Post by TC on Dec 28, 2016 0:25:49 GMT -5
The title of this thread sucks. The title of almost every thread in this forum sucks ("Global Warming?? Really??", etc). I bet the Syracuse boards have better titles.
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Dec 28, 2016 0:50:08 GMT -5
For a school with the nation's best foreign service school, I was hoping that our right-leaning posters would be able to present some sort of cogent, non partisan argument here. Instead, we gets the same rubes posting ad hominem attacks with little to no analysis of the situation at all. While I won't get into an argument on the merits of this debate, I would point out that SFS professors like this aren't exactly setting the best example. SFS professor loses it onlineNot sure what that has to do with what I said or this thread.
|
|
Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
|
Post by Elvado on Dec 28, 2016 6:15:33 GMT -5
It was a real profile in courage for the President, in the face of these Israeli transgressions, to take a firm, gutsy stand and abstain.
He is all steel that one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 7:43:48 GMT -5
Hi SS You are incorrect about this www.distancesfrom.com/distance-from-west-bank--to-Ben-Gurion-Airport-Israel/DistanceHistory/14237269.aspx?IsHistory=1&GMapHistoryID=14237269It is 40 miles if you drive. Take a look at the map again. Missiles don't travel along roads. I may have been pushing it a bit with 1.5 miles. However as the crow flies, it is just a few miles which is certainly within Mortar range. Also, during the last Gaza war they did shut down Ben Gurion Airport if you remember. Hamas has rockets with ranges that can reach almost any part of Israel now. I think even Hamas knows that shooting rockets at Ben Gurion and closing it down, would force Israel to invade Gaza and re-occupy it. I don't think that even Hamas wants that. Ben Gurion is well within the range of their rockets. I just called a couple of tour guides in Israel and both insisted that it is between 1.5 and 2.0 Kilometers from Ben Gurion Airport to the West Bank as the crow flies. "It is very close.:"
|
|
DallasHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,631
|
Post by DallasHoya on Dec 28, 2016 10:15:57 GMT -5
You were complaining about the lack of a "cogent, non-partisan argument" by students from "the nation's best foreign school." I was giving you a recent example of an idiotic, partisan argument of a current professor at that school. That's maybe where those students got their debating skills.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,442
|
Post by TC on Dec 28, 2016 10:37:52 GMT -5
You were complaining about the lack of a "cogent, non-partisan argument" by students from "the nation's best foreign school." I was giving you a recent example of an idiotic, partisan argument of a current professor at that school. That's maybe where those students got their debating skills. Do you think that contributes to the discussion here about the UN Security Council Resolution, or do you think throwing it in here is maybe just another example of an idiotic partisan argument that maybe reflects poorly on your own debating skills? We had a full page here where people are actually talking about an issue and generally ignoring Elvado's troll-bait. That should be encouraged.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 10:53:19 GMT -5
Agree with TC. Let's stick to the topic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 12:47:31 GMT -5
www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2016/12/26/whats-new-and-whats-not-in-the-u-n-resolution-on-israeli-settlements/In 1987, the Reagan administration abstained and allowed the passage of UNSCR 605, 14 to 0, which reaffirmed the application of the Geneva Convention (via previous resolutions) and included “Jerusalem” in the “Palestinian and Arab Territories, occupied by Israel since 1967.” Sixteen years later, the George W. Bush administration voted in favor of UNSCR 1515, which called—by endorsing the Roadmap for Peace—for a full settlement freeze, including natural growth. In fact, until this latest resolution, Obama had been the only president NOT to let a resolution critical of Israeli policy pass in the Security Council.US Presidents have agreed on this issue since the Reagan Administration what is the solution here...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 14:55:58 GMT -5
first of all, every reaffirmed the application of the Geneva convention. Of course Hamas, Syria have ignored the Geneva convention. As for UNSCR, for Israel to freeze settlements, that was part of the roadmap to peace. Of course the Pals (Palestinians) were supposed to recognize Israel, negotiate directly with them, cease all violent action towards Israel, etc.
But of course only Israel is obligated according to you. This is the only resolution that clearly criticized Israel. the others were not critical of Israel. Remember that twice Israel has offered the Pals 95% of the West Bank and even an overland road connecting Gaza and the West Bank. But each time, the Pals refused. Each time their excuse was the lack of "right of return" which of course they will never get as Israel is not suicidal.
Lastly, if you think that Israel is going to return any part of Jerusalem, you can forget that. The last time the Arabs had East Jerusalem, they wouldn't let any Israelis into the area, destroyed any Jewish Synagogues there and used the Wailing Wall as a public urinal. The Israelis are not that stupid.
|
|
quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
|
Post by quickplay on Dec 29, 2016 12:43:52 GMT -5
I am truly shocked. They stopped using white phosphorous because it was illegal. But Human Shields??? Where did that come from?? It's Hamas who specializes in human shields. Collective punishment. What are you talking about?? No country has tried to protect civilians more than Israel. They would warn civilians to leave certain areas or certain buildings before they bombed them. What country has ever done that? And when they warned civilians of impending bombings, Hamas told them to stay where they are. Hamas was firing rockets near hospitals, schools, etc. The current blockade of Gaza is directly the result of the behavior of Hamas. As I stated before, they kept the checkpoints open for 2 years after they withdrew from Gaza. After two years of rocket attacks, and terrorist attacks they had had enough. I am shocked that you can compare the behavior of a terrorist group with the behavior of Israel. I too am shocked. Utterly shocked! Now our shock balances out. White phosphorous was already illegal, they continued to use it. Hamas has certainly used human shields. So has the IDF. Also please spare me the 'no country has tried to protect civilians more...' That's just absolute nonsense. Repeating how moral you are over and over doesn't make it so. Look at the rates of civilian deaths for the Israelis vs. the Palestinians and tell me that they do everything they can to stop civilian deaths. Do you think Israel works harder to avoid civilian deaths than the United States does? Collective punishment is practiced often. The homes of terrorists are destroyed, even if the family lives there. Entire populations are punished due to the actions of a few (including the turning off of essential services). Seriously, I'm not even anti-Israel, I just think it's important to acknowledge reality now and then. I want Israel to be strong and secure, but that doesn't mean 'provide us with protection and billions and billions of dollars but keep your mouths shut about what we do with it.' If you can't acknowledge the serious problems coming from both sides that's fine, but don't pretend that your view is some unbiased perspective - it's ludicrous. Same question: Who else besides Israel believes the settlements to be legal?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 12:57:14 GMT -5
first of all, every reaffirmed the application of the Geneva convention. Of course Hamas, Syria have ignored the Geneva convention. As for UNSCR, for Israel to freeze settlements, that was part of the roadmap to peace. Of course the Pals (Palestinians) were supposed to recognize Israel, negotiate directly with them, cease all violent action towards Israel, etc. But of course only Israel is obligated according to you. This is the only resolution that clearly criticized Israel. the others were not critical of Israel. Remember that twice Israel has offered the Pals 95% of the West Bank and even an overland road connecting Gaza and the West Bank. But each time, the Pals refused. Each time their excuse was the lack of "right of return" which of course they will never get as Israel is not suicidal. Lastly, if you think that Israel is going to return any part of Jerusalem, you can forget that. The last time the Arabs had East Jerusalem, they wouldn't let any Israelis into the area, destroyed any Jewish Synagogues there and used the Wailing Wall as a public urinal. The Israelis are not that stupid. What about any of my posts makes you think that Jerry? I don't think I know enough to come down that hard on either side of this I have an alternative theory... It seems anytime someone doesn't say you're 100% correct on THIS issue you talk to them like they're an idiot or mischaracterise their opinions like you just did of mine above. You're making the dubious claim that I think Palestinians hold no responsibility while all of your comments seem aimed at absolving the "occupying power" of all of it. You're clearly very passionate about this issue but seems a bit hypocritical All of the resolutions linked were critical of Israel, I read them and can quote if you like but it seems that would be pointless. Your responses are look a Assad, look at Tibet. They name streets after "terrorists". That's not an honest defense It's a defense by deflection and an airing of grievances. It's like saying you can't prosecute a thief when there are bigger criminals still on the loose. I'm pretty sure both parties have many many grievances and both parties think they are 100% warranted. I'm not dismissing the validity of any of them but focusing on that is not a solution to the problem.
|
|