2017 Big East Conference Discussion

[trillesthoya]

Thought we should make a new thread now that non-con is coming to a close. One more against UNCG and then we're at Marquette.

I like the momentum we have going into the second half of our schedule. Get a win at UNCG and we have ourselves a nice six game win streak. Get a win at Marquette and maybe we start talking about our tourney chances again.

Also, nothing in the big east is a sure thing. Nova and Creighton both almost lost close games to mid-majors (La Salle for nova, and tonight Oral Roberts for Creighton). If we keep the momentum going, I like our chances against most teams in the big east. Key questions are do we improve our defense, do we shore up the rebounding, and do we stay intense for forty minutes straight each game. 

[GIGAFAN99]

We'll know everything we need to know after the first four games. Perfect test of where this team is.

[JohnnyJones]

While both Creighton and Xavier almost slipped up, it ended up being a pretty impressive 7-0 day for the Big East. Glad we were able to pitch in finally.

[Highsmith]

It is going to be a crazy Big East season this year.....the rivalries may not quite be where they were in the "good ol' days", but the competition certainly is!

[RockawayHoya]

I like the idea of a dedicated thread to take a step back and look at the big picture. I've had a lot of thoughts but felt it was just too much to put in a post-game thread or anywhere else.

Although their computer numbers suggest otherwise, Saturday's results (win vs Cuse, OK St. winning at Wichita St.) were a huge lift for us. Our RPI rose about 25 spots to 66, and assuming we can take care of business at home vs UNCG on Thursday, we will be in a position where we can legitimately feel like we're back on the bubble for NCAAs. Given the strength of the BE this year (1st in RPI by a wide margin), I've always felt that 19 wins (wins vs UNCG, UConn, and either 9-9 with 1 BET win or 10-8) should get it done for this group. Prior to the Lasalle game, RPI Forecast had us at about roughly a 6% chance of reaching 19 wins. Post Cuse, that probability has risen to 19%. We still obviously have a lot of work to do, but at least now our chances look better than just a shot in the dark.

GIGA and several others on other threads are absolutely correct; first four conference games will tell us a lot about this team. Think we will need at minimum a split to feel good, and that's a tall task considering we're not favored to win any of them. Butler looked extremely strong against Indiana on Saturday and Kelan Martin will be a handful. Xavier aside from the Tre Campbell "deal with the devil" game has owned us for awhile now. Same goes for Providence. And winning at Marquette has always been a struggle for us even when we were good. But at least we don't have the excuse of not having an opportunity to rack up quality wins.

Trilles laid out some key areas that need attention moving forward, but the biggest question mark for this team moving forward still has to be their level of effort, IMO. The effort level against Wisc., OK St. and Ark. St. was about as bad as I've ever seen from any Hoya squad since I've started following this team. In particular, we were getting consistently beat in transition and our defensive rebounding was embarrassing. Removing Copeland from the equation has helped some in this regard, and I think we started to see some sustained effort in the 2nd half of the Cuse game in these areas. It's really the little things like getting back on defense after misses and boxing out that is going to determine whether or not this team challenges for an NCAA bid or misses the postseason again entirely, because I think we have enough offensive firepower to challenge most teams on any given night now. This needs to be the emphasis from the staff every day.

Quick note on boxing out: I swear if I see us get beat for another rebound when the other team shoots a FT, I am going to lose it. It's happened so many times this year I've lost count. The rules are set up so that the defensive players starts out with position! No excuses not to come up with it every time.

The other thing that may end up making or breaking our season is how we handle close end-of-game situations, particularly pressure. We've failed against pressure in every close game, and it's already cost us several games (Maryland, Ark. St.) and nearly cost us in others (Oregon, Elon, Cuse). Not sure there is a single guy on this team who I'd feel comfortable in end of game situations dribbling the ball against multiple defenders. We need to come up with a better plan of how to avoid inbounding into the corners and forcing the ball handler to try and split traps every time we get pressed. The guys who we're trying to inbound to almost always start their move to get open 30-40 feet from the basket, and I don't understand why that's the case. Guys picking up their dribble too easily and early is also a huge issue, but I doubt that gets corrected in time. On the plus side though, our FT shooting is a significant positive this year and has helped us prevent additional late-game collapses. The staff needs to adjust how we intend to execute against pressure, because right now whatever plan we have for doing it just isn't working. At all.

Also, as much as I'd like to see it work, I think we should scrap our own press. Our guys have either shown an inability or unwillingess to get back in transition after the initial pressure has been broken, and at this point, against any competent team it is hurting more than it is helping. I don't mind using it in short spurts and in late-game situations when we are behind to give a different look now and then, but trying to use it at the beginning of games and digging ourselves a hole each game isn't a strategy we should be employing in the long run.

A lot for our players and staff to focus on during this key period but I think if they can continue to incrementally improve and clean up even just a fraction of the boneheaded mistakes they've been making, this team is capable of making a run and salvaging this season.

[EtomicB]

Shows that Gtown isn't the only team dealing with newcomers..

[drquigley]

Dec 19, 2016 12:06:13 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I like the idea of a dedicated thread to take a step back and look at the big picture. I've had a lot of thoughts but felt it was just too much to put in a post-game thread or anywhere else.

Although their computer numbers suggest otherwise, Saturday's results (win vs Cuse, OK St. winning at Wichita St.) were a huge lift for us. Our RPI rose about 25 spots to 66, and assuming we can take care of business at home vs UNCG on Thursday, we will be in a position where we can legitimately feel like we're back on the bubble for NCAAs. Given the strength of the BE this year (1st in RPI by a wide margin), I've always felt that 19 wins (wins vs UNCG, UConn, and either 9-9 with 1 BET win or 10-8) should get it done for this group. Prior to the Lasalle game, RPI Forecast had us at about roughly a 6% chance of reaching 19 wins. Post Cuse, that probability has risen to 19%. We still obviously have a lot of work to do, but at least now our chances look better than just a shot in the dark.

GIGA and several others on other threads are absolutely correct; first four conference games will tell us a lot about this team. Think we will need at minimum a split to feel good, and that's a tall task considering we're not favored to win any of them. Butler looked extremely strong against Indiana on Saturday and Kelan Martin will be a handful. Xavier aside from the Tre Campbell "deal with the devil" game has owned us for awhile now. Same goes for Providence. And winning at Marquette has always been a struggle for us even when we were good. But at least we don't have the excuse of not having an opportunity to rack up quality wins.

Trilles laid out some key areas that need attention moving forward, but the biggest question mark for this team moving forward still has to be their level of effort, IMO. The effort level against Wisc., OK St. and Ark. St. was about as bad as I've ever seen from any Hoya squad since I've started following this team. In particular, we were getting consistently beat in transition and our defensive rebounding was embarrassing. Removing Copeland from the equation has helped some in this regard, and I think we started to see some sustained effort in the 2nd half of the Cuse game in these areas. It's really the little things like getting back on defense after misses and boxing out that is going to determine whether or not this team challenges for an NCAA bid or misses the postseason again entirely, because I think we have enough offensive firepower to challenge most teams on any given night now. This needs to be the emphasis from the staff every day.

Quick note on boxing out: I swear if I see us get beat for another rebound when the other team shoots a FT, I am going to lose it. It's happened so many times this year I've lost count. The rules are set up so that the defensive players starts out with position! No excuses not to come up with it every time.

The other thing that may end up making or breaking our season is how we handle close end-of-game situations, particularly pressure. We've failed against pressure in every close game, and it's already cost us several games (Maryland, Ark. St.) and nearly cost us in others (Oregon, Elon, Cuse). Not sure there is a single guy on this team who I'd feel comfortable in end of game situations dribbling the ball against multiple defenders. We need to come up with a better plan of how to avoid inbounding into the corners and forcing the ball handler to try and split traps every time we get pressed. The guys who we're trying to inbound to almost always start their move to get open 30-40 feet from the basket, and I don't understand why that's the case. Guys picking up their dribble too easily and early is also a huge issue, but I doubt that gets corrected in time. On the plus side though, our FT shooting is a significant positive this year and has helped us prevent additional late-game collapses. The staff needs to adjust how we intend to execute against pressure, because right now whatever plan we have for doing it just isn't working. At all.

Also, as much as I'd like to see it work, I think we should scrap our own press. Our guys have either shown an inability or unwillingess to get back in transition after the initial pressure has been broken, and at this point, against any competent team it is hurting more than it is helping. I don't mind using it in short spurts and in late-game situations when we are behind to give a different look now and then, but trying to use it at the beginning of games and digging ourselves a hole each game isn't a strategy we should be employing in the long run.

A lot for our players and staff to focus on during this key period but I think if they can continue to incrementally improve and clean up even just a fraction of the boneheaded mistakes they've been making, this team is capable of making a run and salvaging this season.

Absolutely agree. I really think added practice time has made a difference. Let's see if it shows again tonight.

[bamahoya11]

My biggest takeaway going into league play is honestly how excited I am about the league schedule. I know JTIII is always going on about it, but the Big East is a really good league, and the job it has done cementing itself as a premiere basketball league in a college sports environment increasingly dominated by football is simply incredible.

I'll admit I'm biased because now, living again in the DC area, I have a chance to see games regularly in person again. But I'm really excited to see these teams, especially the newer guys, come to town. I've watched Xavier play several times, and they are a tough, sharp team that is capable. I'm most excited actually to see Creighton, which has one of the most dynamic backcourts in the country. I was so impressed watching them against Arizona State. And then of course there are Butler and Villanova, two of the most disciplined teams in college basketball. It's a great lineup.

I know there are still some fans who talk about the old rivalries, and I miss plenty of those games too. But if we can build a winning program in this league, I think there's still a lot to be excited about. And with the coaching talent in the league, I expect it to be good for some time.

[Highsmith]

Dec 19, 2016 12:06:13 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

I like the idea of a dedicated thread to take a step back and look at the big picture. I've had a lot of thoughts but felt it was just too much to put in a post-game thread or anywhere else.

Although their computer numbers suggest otherwise, Saturday's results (win vs Cuse, OK St. winning at Wichita St.) were a huge lift for us. Our RPI rose about 25 spots to 66, and assuming we can take care of business at home vs UNCG on Thursday, we will be in a position where we can legitimately feel like we're back on the bubble for NCAAs. Given the strength of the BE this year (1st in RPI by a wide margin), I've always felt that 19 wins (wins vs UNCG, UConn, and either 9-9 with 1 BET win or 10-8) should get it done for this group. Prior to the Lasalle game, RPI Forecast had us at about roughly a 6% chance of reaching 19 wins. Post Cuse, that probability has risen to 19%. We still obviously have a lot of work to do, but at least now our chances look better than just a shot in the dark.

GIGA and several others on other threads are absolutely correct; first four conference games will tell us a lot about this team. Think we will need at minimum a split to feel good, and that's a tall task considering we're not favored to win any of them. Butler looked extremely strong against Indiana on Saturday and Kelan Martin will be a handful. Xavier aside from the Tre Campbell "deal with the devil" game has owned us for awhile now. Same goes for Providence. And winning at Marquette has always been a struggle for us even when we were good. But at least we don't have the excuse of not having an opportunity to rack up quality wins.

Trilles laid out some key areas that need attention moving forward, but the biggest question mark for this team moving forward still has to be their level of effort, IMO. The effort level against Wisc., OK St. and Ark. St. was about as bad as I've ever seen from any Hoya squad since I've started following this team. In particular, we were getting consistently beat in transition and our defensive rebounding was embarrassing. Removing Copeland from the equation has helped some in this regard, and I think we started to see some sustained effort in the 2nd half of the Cuse game in these areas. It's really the little things like getting back on defense after misses and boxing out that is going to determine whether or not this team challenges for an NCAA bid or misses the postseason again entirely, because I think we have enough offensive firepower to challenge most teams on any given night now. This needs to be the emphasis from the staff every day.

Quick note on boxing out: I swear if I see us get beat for another rebound when the other team shoots a FT, I am going to lose it. It's happened so many times this year I've lost count. The rules are set up so that the defensive players starts out with position! No excuses not to come up with it every time.

The other thing that may end up making or breaking our season is how we handle close end-of-game situations, particularly pressure. We've failed against pressure in every close game, and it's already cost us several games (Maryland, Ark. St.) and nearly cost us in others (Oregon, Elon, Cuse). Not sure there is a single guy on this team who I'd feel comfortable in end of game situations dribbling the ball against multiple defenders. We need to come up with a better plan of how to avoid inbounding into the corners and forcing the ball handler to try and split traps every time we get pressed. The guys who we're trying to inbound to almost always start their move to get open 30-40 feet from the basket, and I don't understand why that's the case. Guys picking up their dribble too easily and early is also a huge issue, but I doubt that gets corrected in time. On the plus side though, our FT shooting is a significant positive this year and has helped us prevent additional late-game collapses. The staff needs to adjust how we intend to execute against pressure, because right now whatever plan we have for doing it just isn't working. At all.

Also, as much as I'd like to see it work, I think we should scrap our own press. Our guys have either shown an inability or unwillingess to get back in transition after the initial pressure has been broken, and at this point, against any competent team it is hurting more than it is helping. I don't mind using it in short spurts and in late-game situations when we are behind to give a different look now and then, but trying to use it at the beginning of games and digging ourselves a hole each game isn't a strategy we should be employing in the long run.

A lot for our players and staff to focus on during this key period but I think if they can continue to incrementally improve and clean up even just a fraction of the boneheaded mistakes they've been making, this team is capable of making a run and salvaging this season.

I agree with pretty much all you said here. The point about pressure is a big key....I was surprised Syracuse didn't press us more and earlier. I did like that JTIII tried Peak bringing the ball up, but even he turned it over as he couldn't reel it in before he lost control. Seems like something that should be able to be worked out.....most other teams are able to break a press without the amount of trouble we have. There may be games where it throws you, but we struggle with pressure against every team all the time it seems. BE teams should press us like crazy.....I know it may not fit with some teams' game plan, but I would think we will see it at least in any close games. If we can figure out how to handle it, that may lead to at least a couple of BE wins we may not get otherwise. Time will tell!

[Deleted]

6.6 MPG

[EtomicB]

Sleeper: Georgetown

The Skinny: The mercurial Hoyas are capable of beating any team they play and that alone makes them a squad that opposing Big East coaches will fear. If Georgetown held on against Maryland in the Gavitt Games and didn’t lose to Arkansas State, it’d be ranked in the Top 25. Instead, it’s pushing a boulder up a hill as it tries to regain national credibility.

John Thompson III has three high-level players in Rodney Pryor, L.J. Peak, and Jessie Govan, but needs better point guard play if it wants to finish in the top half of the Big East.

Even Rothstein is bitten by the pg bug..

[EtomicB]

[DFW HOYA]

Dec 26, 2016 15:20:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

"John Thompson III has three high-level players in Rodney Pryor, L.J. Peak, and Jessie Govan, but needs better point guard play if it wants to finish in the top half of the Big East."

"If it wants to finish in the top half"? Not an encouraging quote. A finish below the top five will be a deal-breaker for the NCAA and engender more ill will around the program.

[sleepy]

Dec 26, 2016 16:37:16 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Dec 26, 2016 15:20:19 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

"John Thompson III has three high-level players in Rodney Pryor, L.J. Peak, and Jessie Govan, but needs better point guard play if it wants to finish in the top half of the Big East."

"If it wants to finish in the top half"? Not an encouraging quote. A finish below the top five will be a deal-breaker for the NCAA and engender more ill will around the program.

Do you really think we are anywhere near Iocked into at top 5 Big East finish? Right now we are sitting somewhere between 7-9 depending on who you are talking to. Based on the reality of our team right now, I'd say a top 5 finish is pretty optimistic.

[michaelgrahmstylie]

I predict that we will finish in the top four.

[Deleted]

BE probably on track to get 6 bids.... #1 rpi rated conference

[EtomicB]

Dec 26, 2016 18:19:19 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

BE probably on track to get 6 bids.... #1 rpi rated conference

Since the start of the new BE only Xavier has made the tourney after finishing in 6th place & they were 23-14..

Another interesting note is that the 6th place team has always finished with a 9-9 record in the new BE..

I'm not sure 9-9 will be good enough for Gtown..

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2016 19:11:09 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Dec 26, 2016 18:19:19 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

BE probably on track to get 6 bids.... #1 rpi rated conference

Since the start of the new BE only Xavier has made the tourney after finishing in 6th place & they were 23-14..

Another interesting note is that the 6th place team has always finished with a 9-9 record in the new BE..

I'm not sure 9-9 will be good enough for Gtown..

Thats out of 3 years and the league is stronger this year than any of those by the numbers. I wasn't saying Gtown would be the team to finish 6th but 9-9 and a couple wins in the tourney would probably put u right there this year

[vv83]

Dec 26, 2016 19:32:02 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Dec 26, 2016 19:11:09 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Since the start of the new BE only Xavier has made the tourney after finishing in 6th place & they were 23-14..

Another interesting note is that the 6th place team has always finished with a 9-9 record in the new BE..

I'm not sure 9-9 will be good enough for Gtown..

Thats out of 3 years and the league is stronger this year than any of those by the numbers. I wasn't saying Gtown would be the team to finish 6th but 9-9 and a couple wins in the tourney would probably put u right there this year

The team that finishes 5th/6th in the BE will probably play Creighton, Xavier, or Butler in their first BE tournament game. In other words - there are only tough games in the BE tournament unless you finish in the top 4 or the bottom 4 of the conference. It's not like the old BE days when you could finish 5th or 6th in the conference but still get a pretty winnable first round conference tournament game

So the idea that "one or two BE tournament wins" on top of our regular season record can get us into the NCAA tournament is really a pretty challenging goal and certainly not something to count on. I think BE teams need to try their hardest to get into the NCAAA tournament based on regular season play, because it probably is not very likely they will be able to win enough Conference Tournament games to work their way into the NCAAs if their regular season record was not strong enough to earn NCAA selection.

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2016 19:55:50 GMT -5 vv83 said:

Dec 26, 2016 19:32:02 GMT -5 @yaboynyp said:

Thats out of 3 years and the league is stronger this year than any of those by the numbers. I wasn't saying Gtown would be the team to finish 6th but 9-9 and a couple wins in the tourney would probably put u right there this year

The team that finishes 5th/6th in the BE will probably play Creighton, Xavier, or Butler in their first BE tournament game. In other words - there are only tough games in the BE tournament unless you finish in the top 4 or the bottom 4 of the conference. It's not like the old BE days when you could finish 5th or 6th in the conference but still get a pretty winnable first round conference tournament game

So the idea that "one or two BE tournament wins" on top of our regular season record can get us into the NCAA tournament is really a pretty challenging goal and certainly not something to count on. I think BE teams need to try their hardest to get into the NCAAA tournament based on regular season play, because it probably is not very likely they will be able to win enough Conference Tournament games to work their way into the NCAAs if their regular season record was not strong enough to earn NCAA selection.

That's a good point but that also probably means 1 would do... The point of my comment was more about the strength of the league tho. Currently 6 teams are in, Seton Hall rpi 49 being the sixth..