Why Nova and Not Us?

[drquigley]

I went to an Augustinian high school. Most of my high school buddies went to Nova. Fortunately I moved away after graduating Georgetown and don't see them very often. But when I do...It's not fun. So what happened? How did they become the dominant team of the new BE and we become almost an afterthought? Is it Jay Wright? Is a anti-Jesuit conspiracy? Help me understand.

[EtomicB]

Wright has had 5 good recruiting classes in a row starting with the 2012 class..

Add that together with very good coaching in season, a very good player development program in the off season and you have a program that has taken off..

[drquigley]

So how do we replicate his recruiting success? I agree that guys like Brunson, Hart, Bridges and Jenkins are key to Nova's success but 3 years ago we thought we had similar recruits in Peak, Campbell and Copeland (and White). Yet only Peak looks legit. Two years ago we thought Govan and Derrickson were change makers but so far... eh? Pryor is a huge addition and Agao will help but once again we seem to have overvalued a high school recruit in Mosley. Who is doing our recruiting and why do they seem to be doing such a bad job? Bad judgement? Maybe spending too much time going after guys we will never get and not enough finding those "diamonds in the rough"?

[the_way]

Wright always understood who he was and never wavered. His basketball philosophy, the type players he recruited, constructing a roster etc. He just kept at it. Some of their fans were impatient because they would have great regular seasons, but crapped out with early exits in the NCAA's. Most sensible people knew Wright was one of the best coaches in the country, and it would only be a matter of time. It finally happened last year.

III is different because he has never really found himself as a coach at Georgetown. His greatest success here was a mix of players Esh recruited and he recruited. What worked at Princeton is only going to get you so far at Georgetown. He is still trying to figure things out now. He has changed staff multiple times, and now he is changing things defensively and offensively.

[LCPolo18]

Dec 7, 2016 10:02:12 GMT -5 drquigley said:

So how do we replicate his recruiting success? I agree that guys like Brunson, Hart, Bridges and Jenkins are key to Nova's success but 3 years ago we thought we had similar recruits in Peak, Campbell and Copeland (and White). Yet only Peak looks legit. Two years ago we thought Govan and Derrickson were change makers but so far... eh? Pryor is a huge addition and Agao will help but once again we seem to have overvalued a high school recruit in Mosley. Who is doing our recruiting and why do they seem to be doing such a bad job? Bad judgement? Maybe spending too much time going after guys we will never get and not enough finding those "diamonds in the rough"?

Keep in mind that two assistant coaches were replaced this past offseason, both of which barely had any recruiting success while at Georgetown over their 3 year tenure with the program. Meanwhile it sounds like Coach Solomon was the lead on Tremont Waters.

[hoyazeke]

The difference for me is in the guard play. IMO III was close with Otto but Whit flunked out and Otto left after his sophomore year. Remember Wright hasn't lost anyone early. I really believe that if Otto comes back for his junior year (barring injury) we are in the convo for a c'ship. And if Tyler was healthy I think sophomore year would have been special. He was the bruiser down low that Hop never truly became......

[hoyaboya]

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

[hoyalove4ever]

Dec 7, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

Yes- me for one.

[the_way]

Dec 7, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

Hard to say.

Player development ties into if the all the players fit together too. That comes with planning. Not just taking ranked guys and worry if they fit later. There is an art to recruiting. Some coaches are better at it than others.

Nova looks like a well-oiled machine. Each player plays his role and compliments other players' styles. Roles are well-defined.

We look like a collection of players thrown together without much thought in planning if the player would be a good fit or not.

[EtomicB]

Dec 7, 2016 12:35:40 GMT -5 the_way said:

Wright always understood who he was and never wavered. His basketball philosophy, the type players he recruited, constructing a roster etc. He just kept at it. Some of their fans were impatient because they would have great regular seasons, but crapped out with early exits in the NCAA's. Most sensible people knew Wright was one of the best coaches in the country, and it would only be a matter of time. It finally happened last year.

III is different because he has never really found himself as a coach at Georgetown. His greatest success here was a mix of players Esh recruited and he recruited. What worked at Princeton is only going to get you so far at Georgetown. He is still trying to figure things out now. He has changed staff multiple times, and now he is changing things defensively and offensively.

This actually isn't true, Wright has said in many articles over the past 2 seasons that he lost his way recruiting wise which ultimately led to the program hitting a low point in 2011-12..

I'm not sure what difference it makes that guys like Hibbert & Green were recruited by Esh, the fact remains that they were here & he saw what worked..

Any system can work IF you have the right players to run it imo and they're coached up properly..

I'm not talking about 5 star kids either..

WahooHoya made some great points in the below thread..

hoyatalk2.proboards.com/thread/29869/next-segment-season

[blueandgray]

Dec 7, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

I also believe that both would be great at Georgetown....especially Hart. I don't however believe we win a championship with those guys. They fit perfectly into Wright's philosophy.

[Deleted]

Josh Hart would develop anywhere. Nobody's pushing Josh harder than Josh is pushing Josh. People on this board talked up his work ethic back in HS and it has not changed. Josh deserves all the credit for his success, he built that.

[drquigley]

Dec 7, 2016 14:15:18 GMT -5 the_way said:

Dec 7, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

Hard to say.

Player development ties into if the all the players fit together too. That comes with planning. Not just taking ranked guys and worry if they fit later. There is an art to recruiting. Some coaches are better at it than others.

Nova looks like a well-oiled machine. Each player plays his role and compliments other players' styles. Roles are well-defined.

We look like a collection of players thrown together without much thought in planning if the player would be a good fit or not.

I couldn't have said it better. Watching Nova beat Lasalle really drove it home. Lasalle threw everything at Nova they could. Yet Nova never panicked. They were so confident and composed. Those two out of bounds full court passes at the end were things of beauty. The fact that they executed was impressive but more impressive was the fact that Wright trusted them to do it -- twice!!! I have tickets for our last game of the season against Nova. My dream is that we need a win to clinch the BE title and, like we did two years ago, we play our best game of the year and crush them.

[caip]

Dec 7, 2016 14:37:26 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

Dec 7, 2016 13:57:03 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

To me it's very clearly a difference in player development between the 2 coaches. Let's look at their recruiting classes of the last several years with top 100 RSCI recruits identified (ranking in parentheses):

2013
Nova: Kris Jenkins (78), Josh Hart (94)
Hoyas: Reggie Cameron (75), Akoy Agau (88)

2014
Nova: Phil Booth (84), Mikal Bridges (96)
Hoyas: Isaac Copeland (28), Paul White (55), LJ Peak (64)

2015
Nova: Jalen Brunson (19),
Hoyas: Jessie Govan (42), Marcus Derrickson (93)

2016
Nova: Omari Spellman (19)
Hoyas: None

Obviously there are contributors that can come from outside the top 100 (Pryor and Hayes on this year's Hoyas team, Paschall and DiVincenzo on this year's Nova team). But after what I've watched of these two teams over the last 4 years, does anybody really think Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins would have developed nearly as well if they had chosen Georgetown?

I also believe that both would be great at Georgetown....especially Hart. I don't however believe we win a championship with those guys. They fit perfectly into Wright's philosophy.

What exactly is our philosophy? For the life of me I can't figure it out. If we have a philosophy, are we bringing in the wrong players to effectuate it? Do we just grab the highest ranked players who are interested in us?

[FLHoya]

Dec 7, 2016 14:29:08 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

This actually isn't true, Wright has said in many articles over the past 2 seasons that he lost his way recruiting wise which ultimately led to the program hitting a low point in 2011-12..

Yup, Dana O'Neil's article before the Final Four being a prominent example:

Lange and Wright were headed down I-95, driving somewhere to recruit someone. Lange had just rejoined Wright's staff after seven seasons as the head man at Navy.

This was 2011, after Villanova's second-round upset loss to Saint Mary's followed by a first-round loss to George Mason raised eyebrows but didn't yet sound the alarm bells.

"I remember, he said to me, 'It's so hard not to get intoxicated with fame,'" Lange said. "I didn't know exactly what he meant at first, but he was saying how you go to the Final Four, and guys want to show up. They want to play for you. And it's so easy to just take guys. You don't stop and think, 'Wait, this isn't what we did before.' You just do it."

After 2009, it was supposed to be simple. Instead, it became much harder. Wright has admitted that he lost his way, blinded by his own success and starry-eyed at the players who wanted to join his team. He made huge mistakes and costly ones, recruiting kids who topped the rankings but didn't necessarily match the prototype he had recruited his whole career.

The bottom dropped out in 2011-12, when the Wildcats finished 13-19, but it had been coming for years. Wright knew it. He saw it coming. He just couldn't stop it.

"Villanova got so good so fast," Lange said. "Things start to deteriorate underneath you, and you don't even know what's happening. You spend so long trying to get it back, to keep people to respecting you, and then all of a sudden, it happens. He got caught up in it. Who wouldn't?"

Players who were evaluated as one-and-dones stuck around longer than they would have liked, and a program on the rise couldn't get out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. Wright has admitted to some serious soul-searching. Although his administration never pressured him -- "He was never on the hot seat with us," Nicastro said -- Wright pressured himself to change.

The coach, along with his staff, made a conscious decision to stop recruiting players who merely wanted to play at Villanova and instead target players Wright wanted to coach at Villanova.

www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/15098670/villanova-wildcats-jay-wright-hard-road-back-final-four

It always bugged me that the bolded part wasn't more specific. Like, what exactly about those players didn't match the prototype? Are we talking about the players who actually signed with Nova between April 2009 and March 2011 (a pretty easy list to reconstruct)? Players that Jay Wright pursued but didn't get? Both?

[the_way]

Look at the big picture, though.

Wright forgot what made his program great to start with. Even in the early years it took a while to get it off the ground. Then it was Sweet Sixteens, Elite 8 and a Final Four. He went back to want what made him great when he hit bottom. As the article said, "I'm going to do Villanova". When he was successful in the past, he was doing Villanova. Same with the 2 years before the championship year. He has always been great with small ball.

That is the difference. III doesn't have a foundation to say, "I'm going to do Georgetown". Nothing to really hang his hat on. III is still searching. He thought he his style of play would establish itself when he recruited Monroe, Freeman, and Wright. It just didn't pan out. He has been searching and tinkering with players, personnel, and staff ever since.

[Hoyaholic]

Dec 7, 2016 21:14:00 GMT -5 FLHoya said:

"I remember, he said to me, 'It's so hard not to get intoxicated with fame,'" Lange said. "I didn't know exactly what he meant at first, but he was saying how you go to the Final Four, and guys want to show up. They want to play for you. And it's so easy to just take guys. You don't stop and think, 'Wait, this isn't what we did before.' You just do it."

After 2009, it was supposed to be simple. Instead, it became much harder. Wright has admitted that he lost his way, blinded by his own success and starry-eyed at the players who wanted to join his team. He made huge mistakes and costly ones, recruiting kids who topped the rankings but didn't necessarily match the prototype he had recruited his whole career.

The bottom dropped out in 2011-12, when the Wildcats finished 13-19, but it had been coming for years. Wright knew it. He saw it coming. He just couldn't stop it.

"Villanova got so good so fast," Lange said. "Things start to deteriorate underneath you, and you don't even know what's happening. You spend so long trying to get it back, to keep people to respecting you, and then all of a sudden, it happens. He got caught up in it. Who wouldn't?"

Players who were evaluated as one-and-dones stuck around longer than they would have liked, and a program on the rise couldn't get out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. Wright has admitted to some serious soul-searching. Although his administration never pressured him -- "He was never on the hot seat with us," Nicastro said -- Wright pressured himself to change.

The coach, along with his staff, made a conscious decision to stop recruiting players who merely wanted to play at Villanova and instead target players Wright wanted to coach at Villanova.

www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/15098670/villanova-wildcats-jay-wright-hard-road-back-final-four


The same could be said of Syracuse and Maryland in the mid 2000s. Both fell off the map just as they started to get really top flight kids. The didn't want to play their necessary roles, and when the expected success didn't come, those teams turned on themselves out of frustration. That's pretty much what happened with us in 2009, and probably what we are seeing from the Hoyas today.

[EtomicB]

Dec 7, 2016 23:49:06 GMT -5 the_way said:

Look at the big picture, though.

Wright forgot what made his program great to start with. Even in the early years it took a while to get it off the ground. Then it was Sweet Sixteens, Elite 8 and a Final Four. He went back to want what made him great when he hit bottom. As the article said, "I'm going to do Villanova". When he was successful in the past, he was doing Villanova. Same with the 2 years before the championship year. He has always been great with small ball.

That is the difference. III doesn't have a foundation to say, "I'm going to do Georgetown". Nothing to really hang his hat on. III is still searching. He thought he his style of play would establish itself when he recruited Monroe, Freeman, and Wright. It just didn't pan out. He has been searching and tinkering with players, personnel, and staff ever since.

I don't buy this reasoning, his foundation or identity was efficient offense(Princeton style) & solid defense..

That's the way he won @ Princeton, why change?

[Deleted]

Last night I watched Princeton play Hawaii. Just watch the superior passing and the team defense by Princeton and you will understand why I am so frustrated at the play of the Hoyas.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Dec 8, 2016 11:35:42 GMT -5 @jerrylh said:

Last night I watched Princeton play Hawaii. Just watch the superior passing and the team defense by Princeton and you will understand why I am so frustrated at the play of the Hoyas.

For what it's worth, Princeton is ranked higher than us on KenPom.com.