SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 2, 2016 12:35:59 GMT -5
This discussion could have substance if anyone could cite evidence of actual voter fraud taking place in the USA. I am sure the board would welcome confirmation one way or the other. Currently, it seems to me the two sides are suggesting: 1. "what's the big deal about showing a government issued, photo ID to vote?" if it helps ensure valid voting. 2. Where is the evidence that voter fraud - particularly the type that would be stopped by showing IDs -- is so extensive that it is worth disenfranchising millions of voters to prevent? And by the way, the vast majority of those being disenfranchised are lower income and minorities for whom it is a significant burden and expense to get those IDs. I'll start by linking an article about a study that addressed this issue: A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots castExcerptsIn the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop.
Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens.
I’ve been tracking allegations of fraud for years now, including the fraud ID laws are designed to stop. In 2008, when the Supreme Court weighed in on voter ID, I looked at every single allegation put before the Court. And since then, I’ve been following reports wherever they crop up.
To be clear, I’m not just talking about prosecutions. I track any specific, credible allegation that someone may have pretended to be someone else at the polls, in any way that an ID law could fix.
So far, I’ve found about 31 different incidents (some of which involve multiple ballots) since 2000, anywhere in the country. If you want to check my work, you can read a comprehensive list of the incidents below.
To put this in perspective, the 31 incidents below come in the context of general, primary, special, and municipal elections from 2000 through 2014. In general and primary elections alone, more than 1 billion ballots were cast in that period.
Some of these 31 incidents have been thoroughly investigated (including some prosecutions). But many have not. Based on how other claims have turned out, I’d bet that some of the 31 will end up debunked: a problem with matching people from one big computer list to another, or a data entry error, or confusion between two different people with the same name, or someone signing in on the wrong line of a pollbook.www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/------------ The above is only one study. I am sure the board would welcome any additional credible relevant information.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 2, 2016 13:25:01 GMT -5
So 31 cases have been identified and investigated. Seems almost comically small number out of one billion votes cast.
Could it be that the real voter frauds are not getting identified and caught because no one forces them to show ID?
Full disclosure, I am not in favor of any law that targets any group for disenfranchisement but I can not believe only 31 people have tried this out of the last billion votes cast.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 2, 2016 13:32:53 GMT -5
Could it be that the real voter frauds are not getting identified and caught because no one forces them to show ID? You're trying to search for a justification to a solution without a problem.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 2, 2016 13:42:35 GMT -5
Could it be that the real voter frauds are not getting identified and caught because no one forces them to show ID? You're trying to search for a justification to a solution without a problem. Honestly, I just find 31 out of a billion to be so low as to be inaccurate. I don't think the issue merits near the amount of correction that Voter ID proponents suggest but 31 out of a billion strikes me as off.
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Post by badgerhoya on Aug 2, 2016 14:05:12 GMT -5
Keep in mind that in most places around the world, there's some sort of national ID card that people have to have. It's only natural, therefore, to have to provide that for any quasi-governmental function. If the US ended up mandating something like this - replacing the notorious Social Security card - that could be the way to make it work. However, given the variety of obstacles that states put in the ID issuing process - not to mention the investment of time - it seems that you're always going to run up against the issue of racial and poverty-based discrepancies in who doesn't have an ID. The two places I mentioned don't have national ID cards. I think in the US we are running up against motivational discrepancies WAY more than racial or poverty-based, but I do agree that state governments should make it as easy as possible and reduce as many obstacles as possible, while still making sure the IDs match the voters. IF there is great inconvenience, it wouldn't work, but if there is only minor inconvenience, then that should be a small price to pay for civic responsibility, unless we really are evolving to a WALL-E culture of never moving at all. On the motivational vs. racial / poverty discrepancies, how do you tease out one factor from the other in a situation where someone who has to work two jobs to make ends meet with a very inflexible schedule (or even one that's completely erratic) has to take a bus (or call a friend who may be in a similar situation) to travel to the DMV that's open at irregular hours (due to lack of funding) only to find out that their birth certificate has an error in it and they have to come back in two weeks to do it all over again? That's why I believe that unless you go to a national system to issue free identity cards to anyone (thus replacing the SSN), voter ID laws are really just putting the cart before the horse... especially considering the dearth of actual fraud and the vast impact these laws are having on populations of color.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 2, 2016 16:02:18 GMT -5
This discussion could have substance if anyone could cite evidence of actual voter fraud taking place in the USA. I am sure the board would welcome confirmation one way or the other. Currently, it seems to me the two sides are suggesting: 1. "what's the big deal about showing a government issued, photo ID to vote?" if it helps ensure valid voting. 2. Where is the evidence that voter fraud - particularly the type that would be stopped by showing IDs -- is so extensive that it is worth disenfranchising millions of voters to prevent? And by the way, the vast majority of those being disenfranchised are lower income and minorities for whom it is a significant burden and expense to get those IDs. I'll start by linking an article about a study that addressed this issue: A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots castExcerptsIn the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop.
Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens.
I’ve been tracking allegations of fraud for years now, including the fraud ID laws are designed to stop. In 2008, when the Supreme Court weighed in on voter ID, I looked at every single allegation put before the Court. And since then, I’ve been following reports wherever they crop up.
To be clear, I’m not just talking about prosecutions. I track any specific, credible allegation that someone may have pretended to be someone else at the polls, in any way that an ID law could fix.
So far, I’ve found about 31 different incidents (some of which involve multiple ballots) since 2000, anywhere in the country. If you want to check my work, you can read a comprehensive list of the incidents below.
To put this in perspective, the 31 incidents below come in the context of general, primary, special, and municipal elections from 2000 through 2014. In general and primary elections alone, more than 1 billion ballots were cast in that period.
Some of these 31 incidents have been thoroughly investigated (including some prosecutions). But many have not. Based on how other claims have turned out, I’d bet that some of the 31 will end up debunked: a problem with matching people from one big computer list to another, or a data entry error, or confusion between two different people with the same name, or someone signing in on the wrong line of a pollbook.www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/------------ The above is only one study. I am sure the board would welcome any additional credible relevant information. Brennan Center at NYU has much information on voting issues. One man's opinion on how the voter fraud issue arose. www.brennancenter.org/blog/whats-behind-voter-fraud-witch-hunt
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 2, 2016 16:43:09 GMT -5
The two places I mentioned don't have national ID cards. I think in the US we are running up against motivational discrepancies WAY more than racial or poverty-based, but I do agree that state governments should make it as easy as possible and reduce as many obstacles as possible, while still making sure the IDs match the voters. IF there is great inconvenience, it wouldn't work, but if there is only minor inconvenience, then that should be a small price to pay for civic responsibility, unless we really are evolving to a WALL-E culture of never moving at all. On the motivational vs. racial / poverty discrepancies, how do you tease out one factor from the other in a situation where someone who has to work two jobs to make ends meet with a very inflexible schedule (or even one that's completely erratic) has to take a bus (or call a friend who may be in a similar situation) to travel to the DMV that's open at irregular hours (due to lack of funding) only to find out that their birth certificate has an error in it and they have to come back in two weeks to do it all over again? That's why I believe that unless you go to a national system to issue free identity cards to anyone (thus replacing the SSN), voter ID laws are really just putting the cart before the horse... especially considering the dearth of actual fraud and the vast impact these laws are having on populations of color. The one thing I've never been able to understand, is how does that person function in modern society? I've read the various accounts of people unable to get a photo ID issued to them, so I understand the difficulty, but, for example, how does your hypothetical person get two jobs without a photo ID? Aren't they required to provide one when they are hired (Google tells me Form I-9 requires it)? And anyone without photo ID can't use a bank, apply for food stamps, get medicine, buy alcohol or cigarettes, get on a plane, or do a whole host of other things. If anything, it seems like using a photo ID requirement to justify a serious effort to help people get photo IDs would be a good way to get people photo IDs that don't have them and would be a better way for everyone handle this, in that it would help add legitimacy back to the voting process (perception matters for legitimacy) and get people photo IDs that would help them have more access to modern society. I also understand that we live in the Trump-Clinton political world, so that's not going to happen / isn't what is happening.
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Post by badgerhoya on Aug 5, 2016 17:02:44 GMT -5
On the motivational vs. racial / poverty discrepancies, how do you tease out one factor from the other in a situation where someone who has to work two jobs to make ends meet with a very inflexible schedule (or even one that's completely erratic) has to take a bus (or call a friend who may be in a similar situation) to travel to the DMV that's open at irregular hours (due to lack of funding) only to find out that their birth certificate has an error in it and they have to come back in two weeks to do it all over again? That's why I believe that unless you go to a national system to issue free identity cards to anyone (thus replacing the SSN), voter ID laws are really just putting the cart before the horse... especially considering the dearth of actual fraud and the vast impact these laws are having on populations of color. The one thing I've never been able to understand, is how does that person function in modern society? I've read the various accounts of people unable to get a photo ID issued to them, so I understand the difficulty, but, for example, how does your hypothetical person get two jobs without a photo ID? Aren't they required to provide one when they are hired (Google tells me Form I-9 requires it)? And anyone without photo ID can't use a bank, apply for food stamps, get medicine, buy alcohol or cigarettes, get on a plane, or do a whole host of other things. If anything, it seems like using a photo ID requirement to justify a serious effort to help people get photo IDs would be a good way to get people photo IDs that don't have them and would be a better way for everyone handle this, in that it would help add legitimacy back to the voting process (perception matters for legitimacy) and get people photo IDs that would help them have more access to modern society. I also understand that we live in the Trump-Clinton political world, so that's not going to happen / isn't what is happening. Actually, the I-9 requires non-photo IDs like Voter Registration cards and Native American tribal documents, so they can get a job w/o a photo id. As for food stamps, you can use another ID like a work or school badge, a health benefits card, an ID from another social service, a pay stub, a birth certificate, or a voter registration card. The food stamp worker can also check your identity by calling shelter workers or employers. And I think you and I both realize that if you look old enough, no one will ask to see your ID to buy alcohol or cigarettes. Point is, it's not as absolute as folks tend to point to.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 8, 2016 9:50:48 GMT -5
The one thing I've never been able to understand, is how does that person function in modern society? I've read the various accounts of people unable to get a photo ID issued to them, so I understand the difficulty, but, for example, how does your hypothetical person get two jobs without a photo ID? Aren't they required to provide one when they are hired (Google tells me Form I-9 requires it)? And anyone without photo ID can't use a bank, apply for food stamps, get medicine, buy alcohol or cigarettes, get on a plane, or do a whole host of other things. If anything, it seems like using a photo ID requirement to justify a serious effort to help people get photo IDs would be a good way to get people photo IDs that don't have them and would be a better way for everyone handle this, in that it would help add legitimacy back to the voting process (perception matters for legitimacy) and get people photo IDs that would help them have more access to modern society. I also understand that we live in the Trump-Clinton political world, so that's not going to happen / isn't what is happening. Actually, the I-9 requires non-photo IDs like Voter Registration cards and Native American tribal documents, so they can get a job w/o a photo id. As for food stamps, you can use another ID like a work or school badge, a health benefits card, an ID from another social service, a pay stub, a birth certificate, or a voter registration card. The food stamp worker can also check your identity by calling shelter workers or employers. And I think you and I both realize that if you look old enough, no one will ask to see your ID to buy alcohol or cigarettes. Point is, it's not as absolute as folks tend to point to. Fair enough. Thanks for the reasonable response. I feel like I should now insult you, in order to bring this back in line with acceptable political discourse.
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Post by badgerhoya on Aug 8, 2016 13:50:17 GMT -5
Actually, the I-9 requires non-photo IDs like Voter Registration cards and Native American tribal documents, so they can get a job w/o a photo id. As for food stamps, you can use another ID like a work or school badge, a health benefits card, an ID from another social service, a pay stub, a birth certificate, or a voter registration card. The food stamp worker can also check your identity by calling shelter workers or employers. And I think you and I both realize that if you look old enough, no one will ask to see your ID to buy alcohol or cigarettes. Point is, it's not as absolute as folks tend to point to. Fair enough. Thanks for the reasonable response. I feel like I should now insult you, in order to bring this back in line with acceptable political discourse. How about this? Vikings Suck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 11:02:31 GMT -5
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MassHoya
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Post by MassHoya on Sept 18, 2016 16:14:34 GMT -5
It is always harder to prove a negative than a positive, i.e. harder to prove there was no or very little (31 cases) than proving large scale fraud. This is just another Trump venture into fantasy land. You would think someone or some investigative body would have come forward with any thing that even hints of large scale fraud. It has not occurred.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 18, 2016 19:09:11 GMT -5
The biggest "fraud" today is the absentee ballot. Or online voting. Who knows who is voting here?
And then there is Governor McAuliffe (sp.?) of Virginia who unilaterily decreed that felons who had paid their dues to society should be allowed to vote. Or the many efforts to enfranchise illegals. The voter fraud goes both ways.
I still see nothing wrong with requiring a voter ID to be required to vote as long as we make it super easy to get a voter ID.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 9:09:05 GMT -5
The biggest "fraud" today is the absentee ballot. Or online voting. Who knows who is voting here? And then there is Governor McAuliffe (sp.?) of Virginia who unilaterily decreed that felons who had paid their dues to society should be allowed to vote. Or the many efforts to enfranchise illegals. The voter fraud goes both ways. I still see nothing wrong with requiring a voter ID to be required to vote as long as we make it super easy to get a voter ID. I think the point of the article was to show voter fraud does Not go both ways.. The hysteria being created does not jive with the realities of voter fraud. You have 50% of the population believing it's a problem when actual cases are few and far between. 99% of these laws don't address absentee ballots even though as you pointed out above that's the most likely place fraud would occur. The incident linked in the article above for instance was a result of misuse of Absentee Ballots something these pro active legislative actions ignore...
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 19, 2016 9:41:31 GMT -5
The biggest "fraud" today is the absentee ballot. Or online voting. Who knows who is voting here? And then there is Governor McAuliffe (sp.?) of Virginia who unilaterily decreed that felons who had paid their dues to society should be allowed to vote. Or the many efforts to enfranchise illegals. The voter fraud goes both ways. Determining the scope of the franchise (what crimes disenfranchise you for how long, which the Constitution delegates to the States) and allowing people citizenship is not fraud. We're conflating fraud and "groups I don't want voting voting" which is exactly the point we've been making here.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 19, 2016 18:45:53 GMT -5
The Constitution delegates this to the states but does the State of Virginia delegate it to the Governor?
Denying eligible voters the right to vote is voter fraud. Also, allowing voting for persons not legally empowered to vote is voter fraud. Allowing illegals to vote is voter fraud. Allowing non-eligible persons to vote by absentee ballot is voter fraud.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 11:16:50 GMT -5
The Constitution delegates this to the states but does the State of Virginia delegate it to the Governor? Denying eligible voters the right to vote is voter fraud. Also, allowing voting for persons not legally empowered to vote is voter fraud. Allowing illegals to vote is voter fraud. Allowing non-eligible persons to vote by absentee ballot is voter fraud. Even if that's your stance it's clear one of these issues is 100x larger than the other 3... Perspective
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 20, 2016 11:54:22 GMT -5
Fair enough. Thanks for the reasonable response. I feel like I should now insult you, in order to bring this back in line with acceptable political discourse. How about this? Vikings Suck.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 20, 2016 13:35:56 GMT -5
The Constitution delegates this to the states but does the State of Virginia delegate it to the Governor? Denying eligible voters the right to vote is voter fraud. Also, allowing voting for persons not legally empowered to vote is voter fraud. Allowing illegals to vote is voter fraud. Allowing non-eligible persons to vote by absentee ballot is voter fraud. Even if that's your stance it's clear one of these issues is 100x larger than the other 3... Perspective I do not believe what you say to be true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 16:13:48 GMT -5
Even if that's your stance it's clear one of these issues is 100x larger than the other 3... Perspective I do not believe what you say to be true. I presented evidence for my claim, can you provide some for your's that all these things are equal?
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