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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 3, 2016 14:55:53 GMT -5
And there aren't really that many small private schools even trying to win a championship, right? Twenty or so if i am being generous that seriously try year in and year out. Compared with oodles of bigger schools. Butler isn't even the only good example, though it merits noting that they had shots on both of their final two possessions to win the championship game. Gonzaga has had its share of flameouts, but they were in the elite 8 just last year, losing to the eventual champs. In the last ten years, Nova has been to the FF twice and Butler twice. Pretty good considering all the state schools out there. Oh, and some other private school came awfully close to playing for a title ten years ago as I recall..... You're pretty hard on Gonzaga Al, you called them "mediocre" in an earlier post.. Honestly I'd love for Gtown to have won at least 1 game in the last 8 tourney's.. 13 tourney wins in the last 8 years, gimme me some of that.. I just meant mediocre this year. They barely got a bid. But they have been a terrific program for the past 15 years. They have probably done exactly what you would hope for a team consistently in the field during that time. In 17 years, they have qualified every year and been a top four seed six times. One E8, five other S16, and eight other second round losses. Pretty damned good. No FF (famously) but aside from that, they've been everything you could want.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 3, 2016 15:21:03 GMT -5
And there aren't really that many small private schools even trying to win a championship, right? Twenty or so if i am being generous that seriously try year in and year out. Compared with oodles of bigger schools. Butler isn't even the only good example, though it merits noting that they had shots on both of their final two possessions to win the championship game. Gonzaga has had its share of flameouts, but they were in the elite 8 just last year, losing to the eventual champs. In the last ten years, Nova has been to the FF twice and Butler twice. Pretty good considering all the state schools out there. Oh, and some other private school came awfully close to playing for a title ten years ago as I recall..... Probably would have if Summers didn't go 1-10 from the field due to his ankle problems. Would that have still made up for Jeff's no-show? Or Wallace not having the type of game that the team needed? Outside of Brunner Nova's starters have been pretty much exceptional throughout the whole tourney so far. Our Hoyas can rarely get across-the-board excellence from the starters even during early season games against inferior foes.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Apr 3, 2016 16:44:03 GMT -5
31 years and not one small, private school not named Duke has won a national title. 31 years! Yes several made it to the FF (Seton Hall actually lost in overtime to Michigan) but they didn't win whereas 31 years ago 3 of the four teams were small private schools. So pardon me for thinking that the odds of schools like ours winning a national championship in this era of one and done, huge spending on state of the art athletic facilities, and regular "student athlete" scams , are slim and lowering my expectations for GU basketball. Tomorrow's game will say it all since Nova is facing a school that epitomizes all that is wrong in college sports and represents the clearest challenge to programs like ours. Hopefully Nova will win and my expectations can return to where they were as recently as 10 years ago.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2016 16:53:27 GMT -5
31 years and not one small, private school not named Duke has won a national title. 31 years! Yes several made it to the FF (Seton Hall actually lost in overtime to Michigan) but they didn't win whereas 31 years ago 3 of the four teams were small private schools. So pardon me for thinking that the odds of schools like ours winning a national championship in this era of one and done, huge spending on state of the art athletic facilities, and regular "student athlete" scams , are slim and lowering my expectations for GU basketball. Tomorrow's game will say it all since Nova is facing a school that epitomizes all that is wrong in college sports and represents the clearest challenge to programs like ours. Hopefully Nova will win and my expectations can return to where they were as recently as 10 years ago. I still don't get this sliding scale of expectations. Villanova already made the championship game. That's a huge accomplishment in and of itself. The idea that if Villnova wins, expectations should slide upward, whereas if they lose, they do not, makes no sense to me. I acknowledge that Villanova winning would "prove" that a small private school can win, but the fact that it would be the first time in 30+ years simply demonstrates how unlikely an outcome it still is. Villanova winning doesn't make it any more or less likely that another private school could win - I mean, I suppose it could help Villanova itself, but I think the impact on other universities will be pretty minimal regardless. And, to some degree, it was inevitable that it would happen eventually (if Butler had won, it would have already happened). Now, it would certainly help to put the Big East on the map, it would be something that ESPN could not ignore, and overall I think it would be good for the conference.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 3, 2016 16:53:59 GMT -5
31 years and not one small, private school not named Duke has won a national title. 31 years! Yes several made it to the FF (Seton Hall actually lost in overtime to Michigan) but they didn't win whereas 31 years ago 3 of the four teams were small private schools. So pardon me for thinking that the odds of schools like ours winning a national championship in this era of one and done, huge spending on state of the art athletic facilities, and regular "student athlete" scams , are slim and lowering my expectations for GU basketball. Tomorrow's game will say it all since Nova is facing a school that epitomizes all that is wrong in college sports and represents the clearest challenge to programs like ours. Hopefully Nova will win and my expectations can return to where they were as recently as 10 years ago. So before Nova won five games in the past few weeks, you didn't think that the Hoyas could win the national championship? Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not all of the JT3 "supporters."
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2016 16:57:42 GMT -5
For the people who are still bitter about 1985, I totally get it from a fan point of view. So, in no way would I argue with your hatred of Villanova, even if it is less salient for somebody who did not live through it.
All that said, I think some of the Villanova hatred on here (not including the 1985 folks) really is jealously. People are jealous that Villanova is in the championship and we are not. From a fan perspective, it stinks. You always dream of your team making it to this place, and then a fellow conference member goes there instead. I get it, it stinks. But, ultimately, I don't think hating Villanova simply because they are better than us and have had better results this year is a reason to hate them.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2016 17:07:53 GMT -5
I don't get this. If only expectations changed, the results would be different? Who associated with the program doesn't expect that we should win? That is not it... Have a good regular season and that is good enough no matter the NCAA result. That is your main theme, no? No, it's not my main theme. One of the many points I have made is that if you get to the NCAA tournament often enough, with a high to good seed, things will happen and success will happen. Now, JT3 has generally done that in the past (made it to the tournament with good seeds). Now, you may respond and say, "Wait! 2 of the last 3 years, we haven't even made it!" And, that's right. But 2 of the last 4 years we've been 2 and 4 seeds. So, there's really no clear trend as much as some people want to pretend like there is one. A good regular season is important because that's what gets you to the NCAA tournament and governs your seed. College basketball is littered with coaches and former coaches who could barely scratch the NCAA tournament (see Johnny Dawkins as one example), nevermind getting there frequently and with high seeds. For those who say March is all that matters, I very much disagree. But, I think March is a significant component too. But my main "theme" (if you can even call it that) is premised on having good regular seasons. That did not happen this past year. So, if that continues, I would find that hugely problematic.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 3, 2016 17:20:58 GMT -5
This is how most CBB pundits/fans think.. In its reconfigured state, the Big East before this year had sent only one team to the Sweet 16, and none beyond that point, in the NCAA tournament. In its infancy, the conference earned a reputation for underachievement. At the fore was Villanova, a regular-season behemoth that vanished come March, a program that piled up victories and early exits.
We can quote the high% of teams from the BE that make it each year and what seeds they're granted but only making it to the 2nd weekend is considered an accomplishment.. And once you've done that enough times, folks outside the conference(plus many in conference) won't even consider that to be that great anymore..
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 3, 2016 19:53:04 GMT -5
Of course let us not forget that outside of the ACC (because of the presence of UNC and Duke) all major conferences have had their string years of being up and down. And when they are "down" fans tend to forget about the past and act as if only the present matters. I can recall the post Fab Five years of Michigan when the Big Ten developed a rep of being overrated because six to eight teams would be invited to the Big Dance and only one team would make it t the Sweet 16. The Pac 10, The (old) Big East, the Big Eight (then Big Twelve), and the SEC would all suffer dry spells. Actually there had been seasons in which the ACC underperformed badly only to be saved by Duke or UNC making it to the Final Four or winning a championship (and each time the ACC had a string of such underperforming years it seemed as if it raided the Big East of teams soon after). I think not too long ago there was a two year span in which no ACC team even made the F4 setting off panic. Granted the new BE's record overall in the first three years in the tournament is not that great, but it is/was ridiculous for people to jump to conclusions considering how cyclical this all is anyway.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 3, 2016 21:57:44 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/news/left-for-dead--big-east-still-alive-and-thriving-thanks-to-villanova-s-surprising-run-025233938-ncaab.htmlInteresting read about Villanova showing BE is not dead. I find it interesting as this is the perception that we've been talking about here that no one acknowledges. This is a football world and the new BE doesn't matter as basketball doesn't matter and BE is not a power conference as that is defined by football. Good for Villanova for stepping up for this under performing conference since its inception a few years ago. W After reading this and watching the coverage, I can say I'm rooting for Nova for the BE's sake. Hopefully when we right our ship and can create a competitive, national program, we'll be able to add something meaningful to the overall reinvented BE story. As many Villanova fans as I know and don't like (as basketball fans), I never thought I'd root for them to win anything but I think them winning and us swallowing our pride helps to try to get this conference some footing at a crucial time. I think someone earlier who said we are jealous is probably spot on with why it hurts to root for Nova but it does help our overall cause. I think we all look down on Nova as a program and now will have to give them their due and may have to admit if they win two national championships, we may feel a bit inferior for once.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 3, 2016 22:17:40 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/news/left-for-dead--big-east-still-alive-and-thriving-thanks-to-villanova-s-surprising-run-025233938-ncaab.htmlInteresting read about Villanova showing BE is not dead. I find it interesting as this is the perception that we've been talking about here that no one acknowledges. This is a football world and the new BE doesn't matter as basketball doesn't matter and BE is not a power conference as that is defined by football. Good for Villanova for stepping up for this under performing conference since its inception a few years ago. W After reading this and watching the coverage, I can say I'm rooting for Nova for the BE's sake. Hopefully when we right our ship and can create a competitive, national program, we'll be able to add something meaningful to the overall reinvented BE story. As many Villanova fans as I know and don't like (as basketball fans), I never thought I'd root for them to win anything but I think them winning and us swallowing our pride helps to try to get this conference some footing at a crucial time. I think someone earlier who said we are jealous is probably spot on with why it hurts to root for Nova but it does help our overall cause. I think we all look down on Nova as a program and now will have to give them their due and may have to admit if they win two national championships, we may feel a bit inferior for once. The BE was never dead. If it was, Villanova winning one championship wouldn't change that fact in the least. I get what you're saying but FB is still king and our schools, because we suck at football, need to win more BB games. We were never at the point that some like to say we were as a conference. We were never irrelevant or mid major but we need to bounce back to keep those premature statements from being true. I'm glad that Nova got the stink off of their own rep for the sake of the conference. I'm hoping our Hoyas can do the same in a hurry.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 3, 2016 22:30:36 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/news/left-for-dead--big-east-still-alive-and-thriving-thanks-to-villanova-s-surprising-run-025233938-ncaab.htmlInteresting read about Villanova showing BE is not dead. I find it interesting as this is the perception that we've been talking about here that no one acknowledges. This is a football world and the new BE doesn't matter as basketball doesn't matter and BE is not a power conference as that is defined by football. Good for Villanova for stepping up for this under performing conference since its inception a few years ago. W After reading this and watching the coverage, I can say I'm rooting for Nova for the BE's sake. Hopefully when we right our ship and can create a competitive, national program, we'll be able to add something meaningful to the overall reinvented BE story. As many Villanova fans as I know and don't like (as basketball fans), I never thought I'd root for them to win anything but I think them winning and us swallowing our pride helps to try to get this conference some footing at a crucial time. I think someone earlier who said we are jealous is probably spot on with why it hurts to root for Nova but it does help our overall cause. I think we all look down on Nova as a program and now will have to give them their due and may have to admit if they win two national championships, we may feel a bit inferior for once. The BE was never dead. If it was, Villanova winning one championship wouldn't change that fact in the least. I get what you're saying but FB is still king and our schools, because we suck at football, need to win more BB games. We were never at the point that some like to say we were as a conference. We were never irrelevant or mid major but we need to bounce back to keep those premature statements from being true. I'm glad that Nova got the stink off of their own rep for the sake of the conference. I'm hoping our Hoyas can do the same in a hurry. TAS, my point is the BE is dying as that's what the money people want and our conference needs to prove that's wrong. We got a contract from FS1 but that won't last forever and this conference doesn't get near the exposure it did when it was with the major sports network. I think too many on the board are too cavalier about how this conference matters when many with power are burying it. Perception is reality and that's not our board's perception it's the general public's perception. The Big East name has a history and means something historically but the conventional wisdom which this article supports is that the BE will someday be a footnote as the power conferences take hold. They treat this run as some sort of underdog story. It will only get worse as this is a bone being thrown.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 3, 2016 22:31:34 GMT -5
This is how most CBB pundits/fans think.. In its reconfigured state, the Big East before this year had sent only one team to the Sweet 16, and none beyond that point, in the NCAA tournament. In its infancy, the conference earned a reputation for underachievement. At the fore was Villanova, a regular-season behemoth that vanished come March, a program that piled up victories and early exits.
We can quote the high% of teams from the BE that make it each year and what seeds they're granted but only making it to the 2nd weekend is considered an accomplishment.. And once you've done that enough times, folks outside the conference(plus many in conference) won't even consider that to be that great anymore.. It's interesting that you put the first line in your post. You may feel that that's how most fans/pundits think but it doesn't make it true. It's why the BE still gets a bunch of teams in the tournament. If the majority of pundits felt that way, we'd see a large drop-off in bids. We haven't. I agree that you have a point about perception though. Syracuse was 10th in the ACC. Has there ever been a team from the BE that made it as a tenth place team in the conference? HTF did Syracuse? They lost to the likes of Georgetown. And a whole host of other teams. Yet, they were in. They weren't deserving of a bid in the first place. They played well once in but they should not have been given the chance. There's a high level of parity and it's a great story for those sketchy schmucks from Southern Canada. But they should have been at home watching the games like our guys were. I could not have enjoyed watching UNC shred their zone more. I could not have enjoyed watching Cooney taking stupid shot after stupid shot more. That's not a particularly good basketball team. Regardless of the standings, that's not one of the top 4 teams in the country. But, even though they're not that good, they had a shot. It says a lot about how small the differential is between teams at this point. Both fun and infuriating.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 3, 2016 22:48:10 GMT -5
This is how most CBB pundits/fans think.. In its reconfigured state, the Big East before this year had sent only one team to the Sweet 16, and none beyond that point, in the NCAA tournament. In its infancy, the conference earned a reputation for underachievement. At the fore was Villanova, a regular-season behemoth that vanished come March, a program that piled up victories and early exits.
We can quote the high% of teams from the BE that make it each year and what seeds they're granted but only making it to the 2nd weekend is considered an accomplishment.. And once you've done that enough times, folks outside the conference(plus many in conference) won't even consider that to be that great anymore.. It's interesting that you put the first line in your post. You may feel that that's how most fans/pundits think but it doesn't make it true. It's why the BE still gets a bunch of teams in the tournament. If the majority of pundits felt that way, we'd see a large drop-off in bids. We haven't. I agree that you have a point about perception though. Syracuse was 10th in the ACC. Has there ever been a team from the BE that made it as a tenth place team in the conference? HTF did Syracuse? They lost to the likes of Georgetown. And a whole host of other teams. Yet, they were in. They weren't deserving of a bid in the first place. They played well once in but they should not have been given the chance. There's a high level of parity and it's a great story for those sketchy schmucks from Southern Canada. But they should have been at home watching the games like our guys were. I could not have enjoyed watching UNC shred their zone more. I could not have enjoyed watching Cooney taking stupid shot after stupid shot more. That's not a particularly good basketball team. Regardless of the standings, that's not one of the top 4 teams in the country. But, even though they're not that good, they had a shot. It says a lot about how small the differential is between teams at this point. Both fun and infuriating. Huh? Not sure I understand your analogy.. What writers & fans think/talk about is completely different than how the selection committee views a teams body of work for the season.. Also, Yes this is how most CBB fans think.. March is the goal for programs who want to be big time..
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 3, 2016 23:02:47 GMT -5
It's interesting that you put the first line in your post. You may feel that that's how most fans/pundits think but it doesn't make it true. It's why the BE still gets a bunch of teams in the tournament. If the majority of pundits felt that way, we'd see a large drop-off in bids. We haven't. I agree that you have a point about perception though. Syracuse was 10th in the ACC. Has there ever been a team from the BE that made it as a tenth place team in the conference? HTF did Syracuse? They lost to the likes of Georgetown. And a whole host of other teams. Yet, they were in. They weren't deserving of a bid in the first place. They played well once in but they should not have been given the chance. There's a high level of parity and it's a great story for those sketchy schmucks from Southern Canada. But they should have been at home watching the games like our guys were. I could not have enjoyed watching UNC shred their zone more. I could not have enjoyed watching Cooney taking stupid shot after stupid shot more. That's not a particularly good basketball team. Regardless of the standings, that's not one of the top 4 teams in the country. But, even though they're not that good, they had a shot. It says a lot about how small the differential is between teams at this point. Both fun and infuriating. Huh? Not sure I understand your analogy.. What writers & fans think/talk about is completely different than how the selection committee views a teams body of work for the season.. As long as the teams are getting bids, it matters less what talking heads say. If they're in the mix and, hopefully, win some games to boot, relevancy is not an issue. You have the perfect counter example in Cuse this year. Nearly no one, outside of Cuse fans, thought they deserved to be in. Pundits and fans (of teams other than Syracuse) didn't think they earned a bid. And they were right. Had they flamed out early, as opposed to being set up nicely, the narrative would have been different. Regardless, pundits/fans didn't think they deserved to be in but it didn't matter and doesn't matter at all.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Apr 3, 2016 23:46:41 GMT -5
And there aren't really that many small private schools even trying to win a championship, right? Twenty or so if i am being generous that seriously try year in and year out. Compared with oodles of bigger schools. Butler isn't even the only good example, though it merits noting that they had shots on both of their final two possessions to win the championship game. Gonzaga has had its share of flameouts, but they were in the elite 8 just last year, losing to the eventual champs. In the last ten years, Nova has been to the FF twice and Butler twice. Pretty good considering all the state schools out there. Oh, and some other private school came awfully close to playing for a title ten years ago as I recall..... You're pretty hard on Gonzaga Al, you called them "mediocre" in an earlier post.. Honestly I'd love for Gtown to have won at least 1 game in the last 8 tourney's.. 13 tourney wins in the last 8 years, gimme me some of that.. I don't think he meant historically, I think he meant that this year's Gonzaga team wasn't really all that good compared to some of the teams they've had in the past (on paper and record-wise).
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 4, 2016 7:41:49 GMT -5
I HATE 'Nova, but I am forced to agree that a win would be good for the BEAST.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 4, 2016 8:59:57 GMT -5
Huh? Not sure I understand your analogy.. What writers & fans think/talk about is completely different than how the selection committee views a teams body of work for the season.. As long as the teams are getting bids, it matters less what talking heads say. If they're in the mix and, hopefully, win some games to boot, relevancy is not an issue. You have the perfect counter example in Cuse this year. Nearly no one, outside of Cuse fans, thought they deserved to be in. Pundits and fans (of teams other than Syracuse) didn't think they earned a bid. And they were right. Had they flamed out early, as opposed to being set up nicely, the narrative would have been different. Regardless, pundits/fans didn't think they deserved to be in but it didn't matter and doesn't matter at all. So you agree that if a league or team doesn't win games in March that relevancy can become an issue.. That's the point I was trying to make in my previous post.. This isn't about whether or not BE teams deserve bids, it's about how the league is viewed in comparison to other leagues..
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Post by upstatesaxa on Apr 4, 2016 9:13:05 GMT -5
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 4, 2016 9:32:15 GMT -5
Like with virtually every other topic, the truth is, I think, far more nuanced than many admit.
There is perception among the casual sports fan; there is perception among the college basketball fan; and there is perception among recruits.
The national press (that is, the articles folks are reading now) write this time of year for the casual sports fan. The folks that don't really watch any regular season games, watch the NCAAT merely to see upsets and root for their bracket, and then watch the "big games" at the very end of the event. That's the majority of American sports fans. To those folks -- the folks that only pay attention in March -- this new BE is very much a "second tier" league. It probably is "alone" in that second tier (behind the BCS conferences but ahead of the A-10s, WCCs and Americans of the world), but it's still second tier. This Villanova run does something to change that narrative. It won't change it completely -- not until we have a big year with three teams in the Sweet 16 or two in the Final four. And the problem is that with "only" ten teams, getting a lot of teams to later stages of the tournament is simply mathematically difficult. Here's the thing, though: who cares what those folks think? They don't drive our TV revenue (since they aren't watching regular season games that set that revenue). They aren't buying game tickets. They don't affect the perception held by the other two groups. Really, the only reason we (fans) care what they think are because of bragging rights with our buddies and neighbors. And I get that those bragging rights are real (indeed, they're the reason many people enjoy being fans!), but ultimately it has nothing to do with the long-term success or failure of the league or Georgetown. This is the group whose opinion is easiest to change, and its the loudest group, but don't mistake fungibility or noise for consequential.
There aren't very many "college basketball fans" if the regular season ratings are an accurate indication. But the college basketball fan is well aware of the Big East's overall success. These are the folks that know what "kenpom" means, that read articles and blog posts during the regular season, and that watch games aside from the one that involves just the one team they might casually root for. I know that it's a common narrative on this board that ESPN black-balls the league and its teams, but I certainly heard ESPN folks talking about BE teams this year. In any event, perhaps March success leads some of these folks to head to FS1 next year and watch a game or two that they otherwise wouldn't have, but I frankly doubt it. There are too many compelling games on ESPN that are easier to find. I just don't think we're going to change our viewership or interest based on tournament results. ESPN drives the bus in terms of college TV. I completely agree with those (as I've said before) who are very concerned about what happens once our TV deal goes away. I'm not complaining about the deal -- it was a fantastic result given the other options. And that's a ways into the future -- and maybe all leagues' deals have evaporated at that point -- but it is a concern. I just don't think it's a concern that our success or failure in the NCAAT will ultimately change all that much.
Finally, there's the recruits. They're all that matter, ultimately. Sure, they're watching teams in March, but of course they're paying extremely close attention all year to whatever teams they're considering. Success in the NCAAT helps the teams that are successful, but I don't think there's a huge bump to other teams in that league. That is, I can't imagine that Chris Lykes is sitting at home right now and saying "boy, I'm going to Georgetown because that way I get to play against Villanova twice a year."
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