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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Mar 8, 2016 13:14:40 GMT -5
You're losing credibility by saying Whittington wasn't a player. I understand your greater point in that a top 15 team shouldn't have to rely on finding these types of players, but I actually think we've had some success with these under the radar types. It's some of our 4 stars that really haven't panned out for us in my opinion. I think you can criticize alot with this staff, but recruiting landing a whittington or trawick are definitely not one of them.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Mar 8, 2016 13:22:56 GMT -5
That's true in part. Not sure players like Trawick and Whittington could be our best 2 players for us to be a team that goes deep in the tourney, but they absolutely could be 3-5 best on our team. They are both NBDL players and decent ones at that. Not many teams outside the top 15 can say that. It's not the talent,it's the junkyard dog that Brilly and Greg brought to the table. Otto, Kel and Hop were the big ? while Brilly and Greg brought the "intangibles". It's not talent that our Hoyas are lacking its toughness and fight. I think AW maybe a hell of a player but he isn't the best recruit we are after. Especially if he is going to be'17. Lykes, JJ and Simms/Pugh would be the big fish while AW and Ty bring the intangibles.Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 8, 2016 14:34:48 GMT -5
It's not the talent,it's the junkyard dog that Brilly and Greg brought to the table. Otto, Kel and Hop were the big ? while Brilly and Greg brought the "intangibles". It's not talent that our Hoyas are lacking its toughness and fight. I think AW maybe a hell of a player but he isn't the best recruit we are after. Especially if he is going to be'17. Lykes, JJ and Simms/Pugh would be the big fish while AW and Ty bring the intangibles.Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level. Yes, pls, no more of that.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 8, 2016 14:42:52 GMT -5
It's not the talent,it's the junkyard dog that Brilly and Greg brought to the table. Otto, Kel and Hop were the big ? while Brilly and Greg brought the "intangibles". It's not talent that our Hoyas are lacking its toughness and fight. I think AW maybe a hell of a player but he isn't the best recruit we are after. Especially if he is going to be'17. Lykes, JJ and Simms/Pugh would be the big fish while AW and Ty bring the intangibles.Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level. I didn't see that Pugh had verbaled but the point still remains. Exchange Watson for Pugh.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 8, 2016 14:47:48 GMT -5
That's true in part. Not sure players like Trawick and Whittington could be our best 2 players for us to be a team that goes deep in the tourney, but they absolutely could be 3-5 best on our team. They are both NBDL players and decent ones at that. Not many teams outside the top 15 can say that. Trawick is a dime a dozen. There are 300 players in every class who can play that role. A dime a dozen? Really? Brilly is the 2nd most important recruit in his class and I would day top5 in the JT3 era. You obviously forgot how the teams lacked toughness for years after JGreen left. Brilly brought an attitude that had been missing for a while.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Mar 8, 2016 15:19:32 GMT -5
Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level. Yes, pls, no more of that. Maybe a high motor is what the staff is emphasizing when they offer an Antwan Walker. I love to see the staff go all in on Simms because he is highly skilled and plays with a high motor. Maybe he doesn't have all the intangibles and physical attributes of Pugh but tends to play hard and over achieves through his energy and effort that he brings daily. Simms has a lunch pail mentality with skill.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Mar 8, 2016 15:21:50 GMT -5
Trawick is a dime a dozen. There are 300 players in every class who can play that role. A dime a dozen? Really? Brilly is the 2nd most important recruit in his class and I would day top5 in the JT3 era. You obviously forgot how the teams lacked toughness for years after JGreen left. Brilly brought an attitude that had been missing for a while. Jabril is definitely missed BIG time on this year's team. And he was not truly an "under the radar" guy like Walker...ESPN ranked him #80 by the time he graduated, which is actually higher than our one commit for next year or the year after. Not a McD AA, but a legit high major prospect a lot of schools wanted.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 8, 2016 16:31:44 GMT -5
It's not the talent,it's the junkyard dog that Brilly and Greg brought to the table. Otto, Kel and Hop were the big ? while Brilly and Greg brought the "intangibles". It's not talent that our Hoyas are lacking its toughness and fight. I think AW maybe a hell of a player but he isn't the best recruit we are after. Especially if he is going to be'17. Lykes, JJ and Simms/Pugh would be the big fish while AW and Ty bring the intangibles.Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level. Not to derail the thread but I've never seen any write ups on Pugh questioning his work ethic 4ever, quite the opposite in fact.. Check his thread as a reference, the kid seemed to always be in the gym.. He left his Baltimore HS to play a tougher prep schedule at Blair Academy when he didn't have to as well.. Pugh's biggest weakness was his rail thin frame, that's why he originally moved back to the 2017 class.. As for Walker he does look to be a kid with upside so let's see how it develops..
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Mar 8, 2016 16:55:06 GMT -5
A dime a dozen? Really? Brilly is the 2nd most important recruit in his class and I would day top5 in the JT3 era. You obviously forgot how the teams lacked toughness for years after JGreen left. Brilly brought an attitude that had been missing for a while. Jabril is definitely missed BIG time on this year's team. And he was not truly an "under the radar" guy like Walker...ESPN ranked him #80 by the time he graduated, which is actually higher than our one commit for next year or the year after. Not a McD AA, but a legit high major prospect a lot of schools wanted. Maybe Jabril was not a 5 star recruit entering college but he brought an intensity and toughness that this years team just did not have. As a underclassmen he made some poor decisions on the floor at times but he always played hard and with an edge. As a senior he improved his shooting and decision making and was not afraid of the big moments. Another thing this years team could have used more of. You can't have an entire team filled with just players like Jabril, but having a team without any players that played the way he did is a recipe for disaster also
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Mar 8, 2016 18:58:54 GMT -5
As all of us who have suffered through this season know, toughness and athleticism are two qualities in short supply for this current roster. For that reason, I'm fine with this kid either as a '16 or '17. However, if we bring in Walker the staff really needs to focus hard on a PG grad transfer who can play big minutes immediately, and probably another guard for 2017.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Mar 8, 2016 20:18:54 GMT -5
Staff offered him. Staff disagrees. He looks skilled. We'll see how it all shakes out. This staff can't coach and can't attract blue chip players these days. So take the blind faith/TTS stuff elsewhere. Except our roster is full of blue chip players....so I'll keep the TTS stuff right here
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Mar 8, 2016 23:26:20 GMT -5
Pugh is no longer available. No coincidence we offered Walker the same weekend Pugh commits to Stanford. You slide Walker into his spot on the recruiting chart. Pugh is a more polished player at this time but Walker may have more upside especially if he go the prep route as is expected. Walker looks like a hungrier, more determined player. No disrespect to Pugh but some of the criticism of his play is that he didn't always bring the energy and effort every game to match his skill and talent and could fall into the background. His motor didn't always run hot. I say this and I'm a huge fan of Pugh's game and he can learn to play harder as many high school players have the same issue. DJ Harvey is another example of someone who's motor doesn't match his skill level. Not to derail the thread but I've never seen any write ups on Pugh questioning his work ethic 4ever, quite the opposite in fact.. Check his thread as a reference, the kid seemed to always be in the gym.. He left his Baltimore HS to play a tougher prep schedule at Blair Academy when he didn't have to as well.. Pugh's biggest weakness was his rail thin frame, that's why he originally moved back to the 2017 class.. As for Walker he does look to be a kid with upside so let's see how it develops.. Etomic I wasn't talking about Pugh's work ethic off the court, I was talking about his in game production. Pugh has 5 star skill set, talent, athleticism and physical intangibles but up until the end of this high school regular season he wasn't being highly productive with the numbers he was putting up. Pugh wasn't maximizing his abilities. That's why I also compared him to DJ Harvey who production this year at Dematha didn't come close to matching his talent and abilities. I was extremely high on Pugh and hoped he would end up a Hoya. I also stated that most high school players don't maximize their talent at the high school level. He can develop that ability in college.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Mar 8, 2016 23:30:11 GMT -5
This staff can't coach and can't attract blue chip players these days. So take the blind faith/TTS stuff elsewhere. Except our roster is full of blue chip players....so I'll keep the TTS stuff right here So it seems like you have a really broad definition of "blue chip."
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Post by Problem of Dog on Mar 8, 2016 23:32:50 GMT -5
You're losing credibility by saying Whittington wasn't a player. I understand your greater point in that a top 15 team shouldn't have to rely on finding these types of players, but I actually think we've had some success with these under the radar types. It's some of our 4 stars that really haven't panned out for us in my opinion. I think you can criticize alot with this staff, but recruiting landing a whittington or trawick are definitely not one of them. I'm saying we can't target those types of guys at this point, since we don't have the depth to afford a miss (which is more likely than not). Trawick was a supremely average player, so this revisionist history about how he was some sort of lynchpin is insane. He worked hard and played tough, and that's admirable, but that's because he wasn't skilled enough to take on another role.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 9, 2016 10:00:11 GMT -5
You're losing credibility by saying Whittington wasn't a player. I understand your greater point in that a top 15 team shouldn't have to rely on finding these types of players, but I actually think we've had some success with these under the radar types. It's some of our 4 stars that really haven't panned out for us in my opinion. I think you can criticize alot with this staff, but recruiting landing a whittington or trawick are definitely not one of them. I'm saying we can't target those types of guys at this point, since we don't have the depth to afford a miss (which is more likely than not). Trawick was a supremely average player, so this revisionist history about how he was some sort of lynchpin is insane. He worked hard and played tough, and that's admirable, but that's because he wasn't skilled enough to take on another role. And for all the talk about this year's team needing toughness the 2014 team with Trawick lost to DePaul and missed the tournament.
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dense
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Post by dense on Mar 9, 2016 10:33:17 GMT -5
I'm saying we can't target those types of guys at this point, since we don't have the depth to afford a miss (which is more likely than not). Trawick was a supremely average player, so this revisionist history about how he was some sort of lynchpin is insane. He worked hard and played tough, and that's admirable, but that's because he wasn't skilled enough to take on another role. And for all the talk about this year's team needing toughness the 2014 team with Trawick lost to DePaul and missed the tournament. that was the year he broke his jaw too. Be fair in context.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 9, 2016 13:41:44 GMT -5
And for all the talk about this year's team needing toughness the 2014 team with Trawick lost to DePaul and missed the tournament. that was the year he broke his jaw too. Be fair in context. It was, but we also lost several games (including the DePaul game at the BET) where he was playing full strength. The point is that it's not "toughness" that's missing this year; we just aren't good.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 9, 2016 14:29:18 GMT -5
that was the year he broke his jaw too. Be fair in context. It was, but we also lost several games (including the DePaul game at the BET) where he was playing full strength. The point is that it's not "toughness" that's missing this year; we just aren't good. No one said that we would have been undefeated if we had a Brilly type presence on the team. No one even said that Brilly was the most talented player but imo a Brilly type presence is important in order to be a great team. Just like the in the first DePaul game when DSR screamed "Wake Up' at the end at his teammates. The whole team just rolled there eyes as if to say "whatever" because they all know that DSR is not that guy. Brilly is that guy........ Also the 2014 team lost GW to injury and had lost Brilly for a large portion of the conference season. DSR was a soph and wasn't quite ready to play Robin to Kel's Batman. You are reaching...........
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Mar 9, 2016 15:02:58 GMT -5
I value Jabril's toughness. But I agree, his type are a dime a dozen and easier to find. Now take his toughness, and match it with actual skill, and you get Josh Hart. Now that is the type of player we need. When you have a losing record, it is due to a lack of elite talent, not glue guys.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 9, 2016 15:30:25 GMT -5
It was, but we also lost several games (including the DePaul game at the BET) where he was playing full strength. The point is that it's not "toughness" that's missing this year; we just aren't good. No one said that we would have been undefeated if we had a Brilly type presence on the team. No one even said that Brilly was the most talented player but imo a Brilly type presence is important in order to be a great team. Just like the in the first DePaul game when DSR screamed "Wake Up' at the end at his teammates. The whole team just rolled there eyes as if to say "whatever" because they all know that DSR is not that guy. Brilly is that guy........ Also the 2014 team lost GW to injury and had lost Brilly for a large portion of the conference season. DSR was a soph and wasn't quite ready to play Robin to Kel's Batman. You are reaching........... Of course nobody said that we would be "undefeated" if we had Trawick. I didn't suggest that. What I am suggesting is that while a player like Trawick could have helped the team this year (especially defensively), even a team that had that toughness did not make the NCAA tournament. And yes, he did miss some games, and you can make the Smith excuse (Whittington was hurt and kicked off the team and never played that season, so I would not use that as an excuse). The team with Trawick also lost to FGCU - talk about a game where toughness "should" have helped. My bigger point is that the focus on needing "toughness" ignores the fact that we need players who fundamentally play better - tough or not. I think the whole idea of "toughness" is largely fiction anyway, but even if it was something real (and I do get there's something to be said about attitude and leadership, though I don't call that toughness), it's a more minor impact. I have no idea what this has to do with Antwan Walker, so I'll refrain from continuing this here.
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